Hi,
I have a large cedar shingled 3rd story gable which projects out a couple of feet from the house. The gable is about 30′ wide and has a 4″ ledge at the bottom. There is a metal flashing along this ledge which looks to be original (1890s). The flashing is generally in good condition, but there are 2 spots which have rusted through.
Not sure how to proceed. Would you replace the entire flashing? Add new flashing over old? Patch in flashing at bad spots?
If I chose to replace the entire flashing would I have to remove the bottom row(s) of cedar shingles? How do you remove the bottom row without damaging the row above.
I want to do the job right, so it won’t have to do it again.
I appreciate any comments or suggestions. Thanks!
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Replies
It's hard to remove the bottom row. You could do it with a lot of patience and some long sawzall or hacksaw blades extended in to cut the nails. It may do more harm than good, depending on what's under there... but I suspect you have shingles over sheathing with nothing in between.
Any chance you could slide pieces of galv in behind/under the existing flashing in the rusted areas? Or, cut the nails holding the existing flashing, remove and replace it?
Do you have corner boards or woven corners? I've had some luck removing a corner board and sliding the flashing in from the side.
This area is a large gable - triangular. There are large trim boards along the roofline.
I suppose if I cut out a portion of the bad flashing it may give me enough room to slide new flashing underneath.
What do I use to seal the seam between the old and new flashing?
The seams in the existing flashing appear to be soldered.
Thanks for your help.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
all shingle siding is designed to be replaced at some point..
the correct fix is to remove about 3 courses , replace the flashing , and then replace the shingles..
to remove the 3 courses, you break off the bottom course, split the 2d course... and thief the 3d course..
thiefing the shingles is time consuming and frustrating.. you need a shingle thief.. a long flat bar with a cutter/hook that you slide up, hook around the shingle nail and hammer down, pulling the hidden nails..
you need at least 3 courses because that is the normal overlap... and...
it may take 4 courses to work the shingle thief bar..
if it is marginal... IE: it may be quicker to strip the whole gable and replace than to try to thief the shingles out.. you have to decide..
after you replace the flashing.. hold your bottom course up about 3/4 inch so the water will drip off the shingles and not wick up..
double your bottom course, add your 2d course.. and then you have to slide your last course into place and angle the nails in just below the butts of the overcourse..
then you have to drive the shingle up the last 3/4 inch or so until it is aligned with it's neighbors..
painstaking.. like i said .. it is often faster , easier , and better to replace the whole sect all the way from the bottom to the trimMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate your time.
I'm posting some photos to better illustrate my situation. I'm thinking of removing the 2 courses of shingles under the railing and removing the bottom courses on each side of the arch. Then I could replace the entire center section of the flashing. What do you think?
My only concern is sealing the overlapped joints in the flashing.
After scraping 120 years of paint off the shingles I just cant bring myself to replace them all.
http://bigdog.smugmug.com/photos/8541084-S.jpg
http://bigdog.smugmug.com/photos/8541089-S.jpg
http://bigdog.smugmug.com/photos/8541088-S.jpgMike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
to me... this job is a no-brainer.. i'd have those shingles stripped in no time and a new flashing installed and reshingled..
d*cking around with it is not the way for this one...
do the whole gable end.. every other alternative is going to take just as long and will be just temporary
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for being honest.
I will replace all the shingles. Because of the arched opening the cost will be reasonable.
When ordering cedar shingles what type do I ask for? The originals are quartersawn I think.
Also what type of flashing do I order If I intend to paint it? Aluminum? Does the flashing come in lengths long enough to cover the entire length, or do I need to have joints?
Again thanks for your time.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Harbor Freight sells a shingle ripper, or shingle thief as it was referred to above. It's basically a long flat bar with a couple hooks at the end, you fish it up underneath the shingle, hook the nails and pull them out. I used one to do some patchwork on the sidewall shingles on my 90 year old house this summer and it worked pretty well; it's kind of slow and picky work but not all that difficult.
However, after looking at the pictures and seeing you have that porch area there, it'll probably take less time to just rip them off and replace them, at least those along the bottom section below the handrailing.
If you look at the photo you willl see that there are decorative boards on each side of the arch (I have removed them) that separate the bottom section of shingles from the top. I think I will leave the top and replace the flashing and all the bottom shingles.
How difficult is it to replace 30' of flashing. What material do I use if I intend to paint it? How do I seal the seams?
Obviously I was not prepared to replace the flashing.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Same here. Coulda replaced those shingles in neqrly the same time it took to scrape them.
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A quick fix is to use lead or steel flashing over the rusted segments as a patch. Lead may be easier because it is flexible. Stick it in place with something tough like urethane caulk.
Do not use aluminum or copper.
The 'right' way for the long view is certainly what Mr. Smith said.
Mike.
That's a nice looking dwelling. How old is it, and could you post a couple of pics of the whole structure?
I think you may regret not doing the whole end, because the shingles are not going to match, perhaps even if you paint or stain them. But you know that already, I am sure.
I understand your logic for wanting to replace just the lower portion.
I believe that the 'enclosed' area, or the porch if you will is a roof? Correct mwe if I am wrong, but if it is you will probably need to deal with it's connection to the sidewall of the gable and the flashing. I'm just thinking that others may have missed that.
I would also think from looking at the pics that there must be flashing extending up, behind the vertical boards at the ends of the railings.
If you cannot determine your self what type of shingle you have, perhaps bring it to your local yard and have them look at it. Around here there are 'certain' yards that deal more with wood shingles and such, so you may have to search one out to get a good determination. Or you could post a few pics of shingles you have removed here and we can all guess for milkbones!
You should try to find some staging or scaffolding, twill make your work a wee bit easier!
Good luck,
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
Firebird,
The flashing on the floor of the parade porch is welded metal sections and looks to be in good shape, including where it meets the vertical boards at the sides of the railing.
Anyone with experience with cedar shingles:
Should I go with Number 1 Blue Label shingles or are the Number 2 Red Label ok to use?
The existing shingles are all of the same width, about 5 3/4". Can you buy consistent width shingles or do they all come in random width bundles?
I just wish I hadn't wasted two days scraping all the paint off the old shingles.
Live and Learn.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
mike.. when i look at the shingles , i'd say they are red cedar.. they are laying too flat to be whites..
i'd replace them with red cedar R&R #1 perfections..
the existing flashing looks like galvanized sheet metal.. with soldered seams
the best flashing would be lead-coat copper and i wouldn't paint it
however.. if it was mine i'd bend all my own flashings from either black or brown coil stock with nice hems
and don't forget to leave all of the butts 3/4 off the horizontal surfaces so they won't wick
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
however.. if it was mine i'd bend all my own flashings from either black or brown coil stock with nice hems
Mike, you lost me. Could you please explain how to bend your own flashing. What is black or brown coil stock? I hate to keep asking for more info, but I want to learn how to do it right.
I'm pretty confident I can install the cedar siding. I found some great information and drawings on the Cedar Shank and Shingle Bureau website.
I'm a little nervous about doing the flashing. I'm going to do a web search and see if I can find some detailed drawings or photos. Thanks for your help.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
coil stock is thicker than the bright alum roll you buy at a hardaware store..
it's what siding contractors use for all of their wrapped trim, fascias, casings..etc..
it comes in many colors.. the two that you find the most are brown/white.. and white /white..
but you can also find BLACK which is the one we use the most of for our flashings..
you need to have access to a brake in order to bend flashings and put hmes on them
the flashing will not be continuous.. rather it will be 8' or 10' sections, depending on how big a brake you are usingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike (Smith)
mark this down, because outside the tavern this is only the third or fourth time I disagree with you.
ninety year old whites are often in good condition, especially on north side of the house like this. The grain in that wood has a lot of sworling so it is more likely to be white based on that. The colour does hint at red though.
But my main point for disagreement is on using AL flashing in contract of immediate proximity to what is probably tin soldered roof. I would be more likely to use lead or lead coated copper there. This guy could make up a pattern from cardboard and have leaded copper broke at the local sheetmetal shop.
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Piffin,
So, you are saying that aluminum would be no good if it touches a dissimilar metal?
If you were a homeowner like me with limited experience and time what would be the easiest way to get this flashing done? You are probably thinking that I should just have a pro do it, right. I wish I had the time, but I only have two weeks off work with the rented lift to get the peak painted. Since I have two similar gable peaks on the back side of the house I'd like to learn you to do it myself.
Is there a flashing that I can purchase that will work right off the shelf, maybe with a little bending to get it to match the angle of my trim. I do not have the tool to bend my own flat stock, so that is a problem.
As I rehab this house I'm beginning to learn that's it's the little details like this that cause all my problems.
Thanks for your help. If I get this done I'm going to have to send you and Mike a sixpack each.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Dissimilar metals in the presence of water wil corrode the weaker( more reactive) of the two.
If things are busy in your town, it might take two weeks for the sheet metal guy to get it made. On the other hand, you might just catch a guy right who can have it done by lunchtiome.
But for pure DIY, buy a roll of lead eight or ten inches wide. You can form it into place by hand with no trouble.
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paul.... mark this down..
i think they're reds..
and ....
there will be no dissimilar metals because the all the old metal goes.. there is nothing left of it.. he gets to start fresh..
so.. his choice.. either lead-coat copper ( which he wants to paint )....
or coil stock which already is painted front and back..
me.. i'd do reds... and coil stock..
course .. neither of us is there..
now.. mike..
might be time to buy two alumapoles and 24' pic and a work bench.. since you have more work on the backMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I think you are right - red cedar. 16" shingles with 4 1/2" reveal. Shingles are all about 5 3/4" wide.
What (ballpark) would an alum-a-pole setup cost me? I currently paying $500/week for a 38' lift to work on the peak. In the long run the Alum-a-pole might be cheaper?
By the time I'm done with this project I'll be ready to go into the business.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
thems are "R&R" shingles...resawn and and rebutted...not just blue lable perfections..got it?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
alum-a-pole... maybe $1000... $1500 new..
used... half that
2) 24' poles, brackets.. pumps, work jacks.. and 2 pics
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can't realy picture anybody dragging a welder three stories up on a residence ninety years ago.
But tinners soldered tin sheets together for applications like that fairly commonly. That is more likely what you have.
red cedar is better than white, but white blue labels are fine too. No way would I use redlabes on a job of that calibre. They are for economy places and outbuildings. your investment will be in labour here. Maybe 20-30 dolars more for blue than for red is all
if you are painting them, check into maibec pre-dipped shingles. Even if not exactly right colour, you are a step ahead on the primer and sealer, and they will be dry.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!