employees and cell phones
I have one guy whose wife calls him a lot, and text messages a lot.
we can be in the middle of something and his cell will ring, he will stop and answer
the other day we were rolling trusses, oh hold on I got a call
so I confronted him, nicely, yeh Im an asp, but I was nice
and his responce was …..well I never agreed to anything when I started about cell phone use,,,,, you dont even have a emplyees hand book…….
there is only 3 of us, but he is right, I never said anything, there is nothing in writing
so the question is, not necceasarilyif he is right or wrong ( because he is right to a point) but what is your policy to employees (cell) phone use
because this turkey day weekend and x-nas weekend, as ebinezer scrooge as it sounds, im getting to work on an “employee manual”
Replies
I guess he doesn't have any common sense? Or courtesy.
Who Dares Wins.
This is actually to Isamemon, I just didn't get the recipient right before I replied. If he works for you, he should have the brains to figure out that what you say, goes. If he understands what insubordination is, he should know that you can fire him for it. You don't pay him to talk on the phone, especially when you're doing something that requires two or more people. If he makes you wait when you're doing something that you're billing someone for, tell him that you'll dock him for the time he is yakking on the phone. Unless he's a stellar employee and has talents that are impossible to find elsewhere, he can be replaced. So much for work ethic.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."Edited 11/24/2004 9:35 pm ET by highfigh
Edited 11/24/2004 9:36 pm ET by highfigh
...............or any respect for his job.............
.........and the one who signs his check..................
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
I had the same issue come up this week....I told the offender (an otherwise good employee), "deal with the personal calls at lunch or breaks....give her my number for an emergency. Leave the cell phone by your nose bag (lunchbucket)."
End of problem.
He used to work for me.
Been there. Both sides. My phone is always on me, doesn't mean I have to answer it! All you should have to do is tell him once. Courtesy and common sense make the play in this case. No question, leave the phone, carry it, just don't answer it!ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I applaud your working on an employee handbook, first workday back you have to confront him and make it clear personal business can be covered on breaks,lunch, or windshield time. Emergencies need to be routed through your office or to you direct. Remember before we had cell phones we had pagers, before we had pagers we left messages. Soon I suppose we'll have satellite sacrum up- links but we still have a job to do also...
Guess you could call his wife and say his job is at risk?
His relationship to you is employment at will. This means either party can terminate the relationship at any time for any reason. As others have suggested, if he doesn't understand this maybe you should give him the opportunity to work for the competition.
I would suggest you ask him to let the calls go to voice mail and he can check them when you're not in a press. This might reduce the frequency of calls because he's not always available. Or you could tell him only at lunch and coffee.
Jon Blakemore
eegads! If his wife is 9.5 + months pregnant, than sure he can take every call. If not, It can wait! Its rude, and bordering on dangerous to make answering a cell call a priority on a construction site! Table saws and cell phones dont mix.... and lets see, heights, trusses and cell phones, I think that could be just as bad!
Hmm. I thought Employee Handbooks were required only for busineses of 11 employees or more. Still trying to find the legal reference for that one. I used to consult in and around this area when I got my first job. Do you collect I-9 information? Provide benefits? Or is this guy tecnically an "independent contractor"? (Does he get paid only when you do? Or on a regular basis regardless of project status ?)
I would be wary of creating a handbook around this one remark, especially if you are a small employer (less than 11 employees). It creates obligations that might bite you later and, in the cost/benefit analysis of things, is more trouble and expense than worth. You will need to have it reviewed by an Employment Law Attorney and so on. Lots of work in creating these things.
http://biz.findlaw.com/employment_employer/nolo/ency/E571350E-810F-4256-B65286835C3CFD28.html
Irregardless, his answer was completely inappropriate. Your polite request to keep cell phone use to break time is a safety issue. If you are the boss and accountable for the project, you're the one who gets sued if that guy isn't paying attention to the job at hand.
His answer reveals a few things about him that make me question whether or not I would want to keep him around as an employee. (Your mileage may vary.) The fact that he threw out a challenge to your answer, you're the person paying him, and what you are asking has a very good reason AND is not out of line of the expectations of any employer. That he knows what an employee handbook is and has implied using its absence to get his way.
jmo,
You are entirely correct in your advice about an employee handbook. They are essential in larger and especially tiered organizations, but they are also likely to create responsibilities for an employer that otherwise don't exist.
And your assessment of the employee and his 'tude is a good one. I would not retain the employ of the person, even if it meant working short-handed for a period. The "challenge", as you say, bode ill for the present and future. Zbalk
i agree with jmo... don't create a monster.
if you wnat an employee's handbook.. then write one.. but don't distribute it..
use it to organize yourself..
with a small company like yours , you will alwsys have to run your company based on personal ledership..
you have ot determine what your goal is..
is the employee in question a very valuable one ? tehn why pizs him off ?
does he have a needy homesituation ? than why make things worse..
you employee manual can be valuable in helping YOU to become more consistent..
but unless you have plans of creating an organization that will run without your daily input, then you shoudl concentrate on your leadership skills in handling situations like this..
a one-on-one discussion should be far more fruitful than publishing a set rule
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just fired both my guys for various reasons but a biggie was the cell phone.
I told both of them not to use their phones till lunch or breaktime.
I go around the back of the house and one guy was on his phone laughing..go into my shop and my other guy is on his phone after 2-3 warnings..I could feel my heart pounding after catching them do this time and time again.....so I figured I dont need that frustration in my life...I fired them both and just got a new guy...He's much more respectful and a good carp to boot. Looking for a second guy with fingers crossed.
I also told them as it says in my ad for help wanted....no cigerette smoking on the job inside or outside.
Be well forwarned
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"Looking for a second guy with fingers crossed."Andy,what are you doing that you need a guy with crossed fingers?thought that woujd make it difficult to work?_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Man you are one tough Boss! It about ti.....
...I'll get back to you, got a call coming in...
I had a guy on my crew that was really talented and had a lot of personal business he took care of....one thing sorta outweighed the other until I realized he kept spitting his chew on the jobsite,got the prints once. But all you got to do is kneel in it to see red.
pye .. the spitter would be so far down the road the 2d time i saw that...
then there are the smokers... especially the sneaky ones.. the ones who tink you won't notice their butts all over theplace.. or blame someone else ( that musta been the plumbers )....
as the DI uster say" i ain't your momma , and i ain't pickin up after you "
two years on police call pickin up butts sure made a field stripper out of me
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We generally have a break in the morning, noon, and afternoon. All phone calls can be handled then. Till then stay off the phone. Don't like it..........you may leave now. I did say this to my last hire. DanT
My wife and I both have cell phones, but it doesn't mean we have to answer them when they ring. My wife is a GP, and the other day she was examining a guy, his phone rang, AND HE ANSWERED IT. So she left to do some paperwork, and he had to wait 10 or 15 min for her to return. It's extremely rude and unprofessional to interrupt your work to answer a phone call.
It's one thing if you're EXPECTING an emergency call, but where's common sense? It's like call waiting; people put you on hold to answer another call. I just hang up, and figure if I'm not as important as some unknown caller, I guess it's not worth my while.
I, too, would recommend a discrete discussion at another time to clarify cellphone use and insubordination.
On a related note, I'm in sales and I used to try and turn off or silent my phone when in small customer meetings. Problem is that I would forget to reset it after. My phone has an option for "BEEP ONCE" or "RING ONCE" and I've found that this is a good compromise. I know that someone has tried to call and if I am in the middle of a conversation, I don't have to find the phone to silence it. Might be a good suggestion for this guy. PS - I ALWAYS silent it in big meetings
worked in an officewould be sitting there talking with someone and the phone would ringwouldn't answer it, often got a funny look or asked if I was going to get it.said theat voice mail would get itmore funny looks_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Even with the funny looks, you were telling who ever you were meeting with that "right now" they are more important than anyone else.I think you make lots of good points that way.I don't know about yours, but my church isn't a hotel for the holy, it's a hospital for sinners
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Isamemon,
Hold off on writing a company policy. It can hurt as well as help you out. If you insist on doing one then seek experienced legal advice before you do.
I would wait until the end of a work day and then talk to the individual about the ammount of time he has spent on the phone that day. Propose that he either reserve his phone time for breaks and lunch time (with an allowance for an "emergency call") If he is receptive to that fine. It needs to go no further. If not tell him you are going to dock his pay for the time he spent on the phone that day. If it's a job where 2 sets of hands are needed and he is on the phone making another guy wait for him then dock him for the other guys pay too as he also is now doing nothing because of the phone call.
Also it needs to be made clear to him and all that work for you just what the definition of an emergency call is.
Myself I would consider emergencies to be along the lines of "Your Dad,Mom,Brother,Sister...etc is in the hospital" come quick type of call. Of course no one knows the exact nature of a call until they answer it. If at all possible ALL calls should go through your home office phone where the nature can be determined by your office worker who can determine if the call is an emergency or not. Tell him/her not to put through the call just because the person on the other end says "It's an emergency" Find out just what the emergency is. In my experience 90% of the time it's something that could have waited until the end of the day. If you do not have an office to route calls through then all calls go through YOU. Cell phones get left in their vehicles or lunch pails to be used only at breaktime .
I have had this problem at work with coworkers who do not seem to realize just how much time they were spending on the phone and making other people wait for them. It's annoying to fellow workers as well as employers.
JK
so here is part of the argument, but not valid
I am on the phone a lot with not only business, but family, but I wont answer if I am busy, unless it is a customer
One of the guys siad , yeah but you talk a lot to your family during work
three things
one, I own the company
two, If im on the phone it is not slowing YOU down
three, I work 60+ hours a week, you work 9-5, any break I take, I have earned
I am going to develop a manual, I am even taking thier imput, Ill have it roughted out by the endo of next week, we will go over it , it will then be in writing
hard part is, the offender is the best guy who has ever worked with/for me, hardly misses a day, careful with tools.
I'm with the other folks about developing a manual - unless you know the legal ins and outs in your state you can be painting yourself into a corner, big time!Don't do it without legal advice AND very good writing skills!Sooner or later a poorly written manual will bite you big time one way or the other.A word for the wise: - litigation lawyers love it when amateurs try to write their own contracts and manuals and other legal documents. Creates a lot of work for them. Expensive work.I don't know about yours, but my church isn't a hotel for the holy, it's a hospital for sinners
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I'll see your one, two, three... and counter with just one...Who is paying who, here ? After that point, everything else is moot.If you are paying their salary, then they put the freaking phones away when they are on your dime, if you say so.Whether you get on the phone or not has absolutely nothing to do with anything.The fact that you allow it to have something to do with it, is probably why you get challenged. Getting challenged is a slow road to bankruptcy.The job is yours. They work for you. You set the rules. If they don't like it, they can work for someone else.Make the rules reasonable. It is totally reasonable to make them leave the phone with their lunch, and only have access to it during breaks or lunch.If you put your foot down, and lose one or more employees... you will still survive better in the long run. You do not need employees, no matter how good they are at the job, who challenge you. Give the challenge all the weight it should have.. exactly zero. Do not argue the points. Do not defend yourself. Do not even acknowledge the challenge. Tell them the rule, and that's it.And yes... you CAN put your foot down, now. As I said, if they walk, you are better off without them. Get someone else. If you have to have them around to finish this job, then start looking now for their replacements, and hire on more than you need. When the job is finished, you can drop the ones who are eventually going to kill your business anyway.Having the new guys working in the meantime, will give you some idea of the kind of employee they will be. One thing... Do put your foot down with everyone, and let the new guys know that the behaviour of challenging you will not be tolerated. Otherwise, they may just follow suit with the old employees.The cost of hiring more than you need right now, will be more than offset in the long run. Bite the bullet of extra cost right now, and consider it tuition. You'll make it back later...Also... If the employee simply continues to challenge you then consider this... What is that employee earning you ? What is that employee costing you ? Because he IS costing you. And the cost is probably more than you have yet realized. Get out your calculator. Consider his time. Figure out how much is wasted. If he wastes your time on the phone, he is also wasting it somewhere else. Are materials wasted ? Does he waste other guys' time ? Etc...Would it be more cost effective to hire two others to replace him, so you do not lose time on the current job, and simply can him right now ??I know I can't write all this like some business genius could, but I hope you get the gist of it.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
P.S.Don't write that manual.How hard is it to look at two guys, before the day starts and tell them what the rule is ?Again, no discussion, no challenge, etc...I don't run a business anymore. I am not going to explain my whole situation to you, here. I will simply say that the advice has merit of it's own.What I would do...Hire at least one other person. Right now. The morning the new person starts, have a "meeting" with all three of them, before the day starts.Start the conversation with, who is paying who, here. Tell them the phone rule. And the first word of challenge from them say that they can do as you said, or they can pack their tools up and go. You are not there to defend yourself, or to give them "good enough reasons."As I said before, just be reasonable with your rules. You do not have to be a nahhzi on the job, to maintain position as the boss. But you DO have to stand on what you determine to be reasonable rules, and not let yourself be challenged, nor feel like you have to defend yourself or your rules.Don't micro-manage, but don't become subordinate to your own employees.If the other two walk right away, you will at least have a chance to keep things going, and can continue to look for other employees.Don't feel trapped, like these two guys are the only two who are available to work for you...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
well said..I'd do the same.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I agree unless you have scores of people working for you which most people here do not.
I simply tell my guys the rules...I let them break the rules once or twice then I get them theyre money and tell them to leave...its easy as that for me specially after watching The Apprentice. I seriously had a hard time saying "your fired".
Not anymore....I actually enjoyed it this time...after all....when your help spends time that youre paying for screwing you, cause thats what it is, then I have no problemo saying "your fired" cause theyre saying to me in a sense FU, I'll do what I want.
And letting them get away with it once or twice is being far too nice but thats just me.
I don't need my blood pressure up any more than it already is.
Thing is...when your help takes advantage of you in one respect you can bet they are in other ways as well.
Be respected
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Lika, when did you get so smart?
When it's your business, they're on your dime. You're paying for their time, and that means they don't get to use it any way they want. And you're the boss; you don't owe them an explanation for anything you do, and never get into the position where you feel like you have to justify your personal conduct to your employees. You don't. Ever.
As many have said, a manual is like begging to be sued. Just tell them how life is, and if they don't like it, tell them that there are plenty of other employers in the world and they should immediately find one more suited to their tastes. It's become very popular amongst HR types to foster the idea of a collaborative workplace. I agree, as soon as they adopt the collateral idea of collaborative salary paying. As long as you are paying the salaries, however, make whatever rules you need to run your business, provided they don't violate the law. But don't put it in writing.
SHG
Whoops! And therein lies the real problem.
Isamemon, I'm going to have to call you on this one. I was a management consultant for 14 years.
No employee manual could create change like the example of the person in charge. Sounds unfair to the boss, you know he/she puts in more hours. But the folks working for him/her don't see that. Very much like parenting.
"Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work ANYWHERE without creating a lot of resentment. No matter how tight the argument is.
I would vote for scrapping the manual and beginning to follow your own rules between 9 and 5. Setting an example is the quickest way to create change. Holding yourself to the same standards as those who work for you is the quickest way to create loyalty.
If you really need to talk to your wife during 9 and 5, more so than this guy does, at least develop a code name for her. Turn her into a supplier or SOMETHING. But don't behave one way in front of others and then chew them out for doing the same thing. If you implement a manual, and don't follow the rules yourself, you will:
a) cause a lot of resentment and morale issues.
b) create a "him versus us" dynamic that will cost you later when you need a little extra from your folks.
c) create a document that you are forever spending time to update because they will always find new things to do that you want to control. Do you really want to spend your time that way when implementing a small change on your part could save you tons of time and grief?
More efficient and cost effective to lead by example.
Best of everything to you,
jmo
""Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work ANYWHERE without creating a lot of resentment. No matter how tight the argument is"With great respect for you, Jmo, I must disagree.When I had 3-4 guys and worked with them I had one of the original "bag" phones. Between the phone and the pager, I was on the phone what seemed like continually, yet had absolutely no problem wit my guys. I gave my cell 3 to each of them to give to their family's for emergency purposes. I was running a business, and most of my communications were via the phone, and not after supper, although that happened as well. And when I had 26 field staff and seemed to be constantly on the phone, I was still running a business, and still never got a peep from anyone.Tell that "Do as I say, not as I do" to anyone running a company about cell phone use. Each employee has job to do, and each "job" carries with it certain responsibilities. Abusing personal use of a cell phone is not in any one's description of there "responsibilities".Isamemon, as for that manual, I hope you never get sued by OSHA or a home owner when their kid climbs up an extension ladder or grabs a saw left plugged in, and gets hurt or killed, while the guys are out to lunch. And you're defense lawyer asked you about a safety, operations, or employee manual, and you tell him you didn't have one. You're going to be eaten up alive at court.
I worked with a guy and my boss setting rafters on a 12 pitch. The other employee answered his phone; my boss and I just rolled our eyes and laughed. It's usually the younger kids who seem obligated to answer to hear from that chick they met at the club the night before. Be careful. If you ban cell phone use. Employees might take offense and hold you to your every word. That means never calling the boss for anything. Short on materials, driver needs a check. They might never call you. Oh and then there the case. Who pays my bill? You? Me? If I have to pay it. Don't expect me (employee) to inform you of a situation. And by the way, why should I answer YOU (the boss) when you call me? Trust me I've seen these things get blown out of proportion. And there are always those pesky hands free earpieces. Be specific
jmo
Like Sonny I'm going to have to disagree with you.
"Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work ANYWHERE without creating a lot of resentment.
My boss drifts in in the morning around 9 or 9:30am, leaves around 3:00pm. We work 7 to 3:30.
All of us know our work schedule, I have never heard any body complain that he comes and goes as he wishes. We may be jealous but nobody complains. Certainly no one copies him.
I guess as a employee I understand that I follow the bosses rules, he doesn't have to follow mine. Maturity does that to you.
I see the problem that started this thread as the fault of the employer. As Barny Fife would say "nip it, nip it in the bud"
I cant see where this employee is all that great, regardless of what the poster here says. If he was so great he wouldn't be stealing from the man.
Doug
I used to have a carpenter who, IMO, was second to none in our industry. But he had a drinking problem, which whie not effecting his workmanship, did effect when he showed up.I finally had to tell him m that I had to let him go because while being the best carpenter in the world, his loss of credibility made him worthless to me.When I had those 4 guys and worked with them, they left to go home at 4:30 on the several days I left at 3, but not to go home. I left at 3 to go on sales calls, sometimes one scheduled for 3:15 and another for 4:30 meaning I got home after my family already eat dinner. But I ws still not off "work" having to then call other customers, staff to go over the next days of work, work on estimates or designs or typing contracts - typical contractor.So if any of my guys ever did make some crack about the hours that they actually saw me, would have received a real ear full about the "real" number of weekly hours I put in - for them, as well as myself. Then I would have discussed with them my responsibilities to them, my family, my custoemrs, my subs, and my vendors. So "don't do as I do, just do as I say" is appropriate when talking about responsibilities.
Sonny
I hope you didn't take it that we all think he(our boss) is sleeping in and leaving early so as to not miss Oprah.
We really don't care what he is doing(to a certain extent). At least I don't, its not my business. It is my business to do the work that I am paid for. By doing that I assure myself that I will keep a job and my boss will make enough money to pay us, and put a little in his pocket.
I think that if I was in the business of hiring people credibility would be a primary concern. You have to be able to trust your workers.
Doug
"At least I don't, its not my business. It is my business to do the work that I am paid for. By doing that I assure myself that I will keep a job and my boss will make enough money to pay us, and put a little in his pocket."Actually Doug, it is your business too.I used to tell my staff that ours is a team effort, and therefore, a team business. The better we are in all aspects, and I mean ALL aspects, the more I can charge because we would represent an even a better value to our customers than our mediocre competitors.I often paid for and sent employees to different seminars like How to Listen, Becoming a Supervisor, Running Your own Business, etc. I told each of them that they were actually working for themselves. By that I meant, that the more valuable they became to me the more I could pay them and/or give even more perks.I remember as a high schooler and working for my sister after school who had a small restaurant. I once overheard her tell a waitress that my sister provided her a "place" , the stools, the salt and pepper shaker, napkin holder, stools and counter of the waitress's "station." She also provided the food, advertising, etc. It was as though that station was that waitress's own small business. It was up to her to keep her station impeccably clean, give the best service to "her" customers, etc. I tried to do the same for my own people - give them what they needed to be the best they could be - and for both of us.So in reality, it's not just a "job." It's a goal to better living, and opportunity for free education, a great place to work and a fun place to be. With the right co-workers and the right "boss" it can be everything any employee could wish for. Life is far too short to waste it on anything less.
Sonny
I agree with part of what you say but,
I work for a very tight boss, to the point of it being a problem with our ability to do our work properly. I really don't care what he does as long as he keeps giving me a set of prints and then leaving me alone until the next time I need a set of prints.
I have no management abilities, don't want to run a business, don't want to be in charge of anybody, for that matter I don't want to be a team player.
I know that may sound wrong to you but I have tried to run my own business, I suck at it. I can live with that. I do not care if I'm the ideal employee, I'm not trying to get my own parking spot up front!
What I do is build some fantastic cabinetry and millwork, plain and simple. God gave me some talent, one of the things that he did not give me is the ability to be a business man. The thought of being a business person bores me to no end. I have no ambition to do so.
I've made my fortune( I laugh every time I think about that) by investing in antiques and some property. I'm never going to make it as a business operator.
You may say that I'm less than an ideal employee because I'm not a team player, so be it. My talent to build is what keeps me there, his ability as a manager to see my value as a cabinet maker is what keeps me there, nothing more. I am very happy with all of that.
I see my boss as someone that is sucking the place dry for all that he can, very seldom puts anything back into the place, I can live with that, I get to do what I want, sure I have to go ask for simple stuff 5 times but that's the way it is. Hes very tight. He eventually goes and gets it. I stay at this place because in spite of some of his shortcomings I like him, but more importantly I like the jobs he gets.
BTW, I have been a team player at other places that I worked, this is not a place to be a team player. I have a wife who has fantastic benefits, this place I work for has none, by none I mean none. I don't know how some of the other guys go without insurance. This is part of my attitude on the team player thing, it goes both ways.
I could go on but I got to get to work, I'm never late!
Doug
Sounds like to me that you and Sonny are both right, but for different reasons.
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Doug,
It's not worth the effort to disagree with Sonny, even a little. Then you get 10,000 words all about him. Remember, he has nothing to do all day long but rant about liberals and pontificate about his management theories. And he's never wrong.
SHG
Hey this is the closest that we(Sonny and I) have ever came to any sort of agreement on anything!
I got to go with it. :)
Doug
Doesn't that scare you?
Doug, Sonny--
I hear you.
Some employees, especially those who have managed their own projects and can "see" the implications of being the boss, can handle it if the boss does their own thing.
A lot of employees "can't" see it. I don't know how else to explain it. If they have never been the boss, the person dealing with employees AND clients AND suppliers and so forth, it's as if they cannot even imagine that person working beyond the 8 hours a day that they themselves put in. It is a real blind spot with many employees. And it is extremely frustrating for project managers and owners.
I don't think that this guy is the ideal employee. And if there is a lot of talent out there to fill that spot, dump him now and pick someone else up, absolutely. But it seems to me that there IS a talent shortage in some parts of the country which is just as frustrating for GC's. Can't find folks who will even show up, nevermind know a hammer from a saw.
I shouldn't have used the word, "anywhere." I should have used "many places." I'm just talking from what I saw over all of those years when I was paid to clean up corporate messes. And that has probably skewed my sense of reality as well...I was the EMT of corporate change for companies like Ingersoll Rand, Chrysler Systems, etc. I guess if all you ever see is car wrecks, the world begins to look like one big accident.
I'm not saying it is right for the boss to never be able to pull rank when needed because...frankly...he/she is the boss. He/she signs your paycheck and keeps the client out of your hair. But some of the best run companies I've seen had certain patterns to them. The CEO's and other management folk were pretty humble and at least made it SEEM like they were held to the same standard as everyone else. Even when that couldn't possibly have been true. They picked up a lot of respect and the folks who worked for them were willing to really go all out to support them.
Just something to think about from a devil's advocate perspective :)
J, no devils advocate, every single "boss" must remember as I used to tell my own employees, that each person in each company holds a postiion that is just as important as the next. As owner my responsibilities were more, but none the less, no less important than the occasional hired guy from manpower, and I insisted that he be treated with the same respct as I. In fact, I fired a general manager I had because he refused to give respect when due. I'm a strong advocate of the team concept.I would suggest that Isamemon have a real heart to heart with his employee about the realities of running a business and the "business'" responsibilities to it's own customers, and of which he is a part, and as such, is expected by the customer, the business owner and his peers to hold up the responsibilities of his part.It costs businesses a tremendous amount of time and money to hire and train new employees. It's worth the effort to try to get this guy to come around.
I think I see what you mean. Japanese firms are very good at this. Plant manager dresses the same as the workers, eats in the same canteen, it all helps to build up a good attitude in the workers
I also see what the other guys mean, in as much as running an effective business would be impossible if they spent the same time on site as the employees, and therefore had little time to administrate their businesses.
As to whether or not the guy that is the cause of this thread should be sacked or not? I guess it all depends on how well he responds to having the problem explained to him, and how easy he would be to replace
John
any hand getting a check should be able to understand that the hand writing the check has more privileges..............................
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Im going to go against the grain here, I like the idea of a company manual. A lot of you have said that having a manual opens you (the owner) up to lawsuits and such. How so and what have been/are the most common thing employee's use against you ( excuse my ignorance, guess Im looking at this from an ideal employee standpoint, someone who wouldnt bring lawsuits for petty things). Instead of a "company manual", what about a something labeled more like "company guidelines"? Would the wording change somehow get you out of the legal loophole?
So we/ you should get a lawyer to look over the employee policy/ handbook!? Its going to cost some money to have them look at it?!! SOO?? There is all this talk that we (as a construction industry) need to become more professional, have an accountant look over your books/costs, lawyer to look over your contracts, etc. How is this handbook any different?? Its another part/ cost of running a business.
I like the manual idea becuase you have it down there on paper. Its clear, right there in writing. There is no question on what was said, no debating. If there is a question, everyone can go back to the manual and see what it says. I have a hard enough time remembering what I said two hours ago, not what was said to me or what I said to someone a day, two weeks, etc., ago. Ive worked in small companies (6-7 employees including owner) where we employees were unsure/unclear of policies (i.e. around the holidays we'd be asking each other if we were paid for the holiday, what was the tool reimbursement plan, etc., do we get reimbursed for mileage if we're running company errands).
I wouldnt fire the guy over just this incident, lets give him a little slack. He seems to be a good employee besides this incident. BUT, I would not have responded the way he did ( maybe he was caught off guard, was in a bad mood or had some pressing matter on his mind). I would have apoligized and said I would take care of the problem of excessive talking. Let him keep the phone on him. I wouldnt want to get an emergency call for him on my phone. If its an emergency, let them call him directly....ITS AN EMERGENCY!!!! Also, sometimes its hard to make your calls only on break or lunch time ( i.e. need to contact my Dr., leave voice mail, he calls me back when he is able, when he calls I am going to take his call, not let my voice mail get it). All that being said, discretion needs to be used. I limit my phone use as much as possible, have told dear wife ( in the nicest of ways!!!:-) yeah right!!) that I cant talk to her, Im working.
m2akita
p.s. Isamemon, I think its great that you are willing to put in the time/energy to make up a handbook. It seems to me that you are doing it for the good of all ( asking for input of employees, etc). This handbook should be something that all can live by ( you and your employees).
p.s.s.how did I type so much???
m2... you could answer your own question..
let's start..
you write the rule for on-the-job use of cell phones and post it here...
now add all of the other rules that will be included in the manual..
don't forget.. these are the rules that the company will use to enforce safety, punctuality, sick time, time off...
tool purchase..
these are the rules that will be in forced when times are good, and when times are bad.
these are the rules that your best employee has to comply with... that you have to comply with and that were probably actually written for the guy that you hired last month... one manual fits all..
or... you could polish your management skills Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Everyone here should immediately buy and read "The E-Myth contractor by Michael Gerber.
His main emphasis in the book is that small business owners go broke for one reason - no "systems".
He say, and I agree, "If it ain't written down, it doesn't exist."
Written systems for virtually every aspect of the operation of a business does one very important thing: It eliminates discretion by the staff.
When an employee screwed up, I did the apologizing, saying that apparently I did not make my self clear enough.
When someone asked, he is told "This is how we do it here, in ABC contracting." And he is referred to the book of "systems", known in corporations as more than just an "employee handbook" but instead, and "operations manual."
I still have an employee manual from when I used to have and employee leasing company who put it together for us. It's about 45 pages and I can fax it to anyone who wants it if they email me with a Fax number. However, for a more comprehensive one, I strongly suggest you buy a copy form Michael Stone, a friend and a contracting consultant and business coach.
http://www.markupandprofit.com/ Scroll down to near the bottom. It's $60 - really a drop in the bucket considering the alternative aggravation and $$$$ lost in disputes and untrained employees.
Remember, employees are like kids, they have no idea of what's allowed and what's not. It's our responsibility to them to set the guidelines and explain them, often the reasons as well.
Have a company meeting when your manual is ready and discuss all of it's contents. Give a copy to each employee and have them sign that they received it.
Shglaw,
What's your take on an "Operations Manual" like Sonny and Michael reccommend?
Keep it to onesself or share it with employees? Why?
It is easy to percieve advantages from a laymans viewpoint, but what do you see from the other side, Oh, Wise and Omniscient One?
gulp, gulp, gag, gag
SamT
Having an understanding of systems and operations is important and valuable in running any business. Writing it down, or having a manual is another matter. Unless you can't remember your systems, there's no purpose to writing it down in a small business except to create "rules" that can be used against you if you "violate" your rules. As for keeping it to yourself, it still exists, can be discoverable in litigation and serves no purpose unless your still having recurring acid trips from the 60's.
Many small business operate with essentially no "rules", meaning that decisions are made on the fly (thoughtlessly) and address only the particular situation before the owner, leading to the perception if not the reality of arbitrary and capricious action. Also, it tends against operating a business like a business. But these are all internal management issues. Manuals are for external usel; sharing ideas with others. If you don't plan on sharing, don't write it down. But do live by it.
SHG
Shglaw,
Thanks for your thoughts.
I'm not sure that I agree with you outside of the things that could go in an Employee Manual, but you have given me something to consider.
SamT
When you have more employees than you can personally manage, and need to formalize the management structure with supervisors, etc., then a manual can be used to provide clear systems and operations. And have one carefully drafted by a lawyer to do as much as possible to protect yourself from having it used against you. I've read quite a few business books, and most of them are laughably basic and too often legally wrong or dangerous.
But if I understood correctly, you are a small operation, then you are asking for trouble. We are a litigious society, and sooner or later one of your employees will be using your manual against you. In any event, hope I helped somewhat.
SHG
I have one employee. He works under the guidelines of my attorney approved OM. The OM fit's right in with what I call, got this phrase from Gerber - a "position contract." As such, the employee agrees to work under the agreed contract terms for his position. It is not a 1-way agreement since it also stipulates what my responsibilities are to him - just as my customer contract spells out my customer's responsibilities to me and mine to them. Have yet to get sued by a customer.I also have a similar, although quite short "agreement" for my subs.If I ever got to the point where I, as the owner of my company, cannot specify the conditions for which employment with me will exist, I'll stop being a business owner. Ditto for when a home owner cannot dictate when and at what hours I can work in his/her home, where to park on his/her property, etc.Besides, if an employee wants to sue me they certainly do not need what a sane person would call a "reasonable" reason. After correcting bad work, he could sue me for attacking his persona, or not being "sensitive" to his needs. People get sued for many ridiulous reasons. Meanwhile, I've got a business to run and people to serve.BTW, when we created and modified our manual, we had 2-3 company wide meetings to get imput from all employees. Then we ran it by our attorney. I would never again operate any business without one.Again, I suggest checking out Stone's manual. You can email him first with any concerns or questons.As my attorney told me, NOT having a manual leaves my rear end more open for a suit because EVERYTHING is legally an "interpretation" by those involved. And we all know what happens when we assume.
Edited 11/26/2004 2:57 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
Everyone interested.
I might get a little off track on this.
I here my employees through a temp agency. However they are not really temps, I find people I want and send them to the agency. My accountant advised me to do this a few years ago, it did save money on all costs, they had the workers comp, they did the taxes, they eoffer personal leave time, and they offer bennies to those that want to buy in. I pay the employees more then the temp agency would, I set the pay scale. It has been a win win for them and me.
early on the temp agency is the first to suggest to me that I have a manual, to avoid any arguments on what he said she said
but I like what others have said about making it a guideline
However Ive been playing with this for a while, and so I thought it would be good to include them, get some input
Two weeks ago , I asked the three guys to think about over the weekend, what they would thnk would make the business more productive, safer, in hopes they would see things like I was getting frustrated with. and to jot it down on a piece of paper. I told them , dont hold any punches. we also discussed that this is a good winter for us , and we will have to hire some more help ( one starts December 6th) so haveing some ideas would be good
Monday rolled around and I asked if they did thier homework and if so , we can discuss it at the end of the day
at lunch the three of them sat together and bs'd. I was busy . I knew what they were doing, so I gave them space, when we usuallly take lunch together
at the end of lunch one of them walks over with a scap of plywood and three things written on it. Get it to stop raining, a burn barrel, new racks for the van
so I looked at it, when lunch was over I walked over to them and said thanks guys, I ws hoping you would take it more seriously.
the next day I talked to them about cell phones ( I only allow one to have one, my lead, and the original intention was for when I was not at the job), getting to work on time, and being ready to work .. It worked for about 2 days
...........................................
so yesterday was turkey day, my son was home, an officer in the army, we discussed this.
He said, and many of you will probabally agree, that I am too lax on the guys. I have to take control and be an officer. Its one thing to be friendly, its another to be friends. YOu ( meaning me) are the general ( we joke about this , I out rank him, im a general contractor,hes a 2nd luie). dont be demanding, take your rules and present them to the soldiers, those that cant follow them can ship out. forget going to the bar with them . They know in the back of their minds you are the management, work it that way.
so as far as a amnual. I agree with someone else who said it helps get systems in place. I think Ill read up on that
and I will continue to look at the advice you all give , and make my decission later,
but monday, we are going to all talk again about cell phones, showing up on time and whose dime we, and they, are working on
keep the info coiming
thanks
Having been a mid level corperate manager for 20 years helps me as much running my own deal as anything. All the places I worked had manuals. But as far as day to day personell problems go the manual is worth little.
Your son is entirely correct. As a boss, manager or whatever you want to call it you are the bottom line. The only things that happen on a daily basis is what you allow. People will get away with whatever they see they can. All people. Some do it out of laziness, some because they are primadonas, some because they are sneaky at heart, but it doesn't matter why they will just do it if you allow it.
My brother works for me. We worked together about 6 months. He would pick up material and not note what job it was for and also would not describe what exactly he did on the customers bill.
I mentioned it to him on 3 or 4 occasions with little result. So one morning we had a few minutes before we had to leave for our jobs. I sat down and handed him a piece of paper that had on it a step by step process for filling out a customers bill. I then said to him that I believe that all things that don't happen in a company start at the top from either a lack of enforcement or communication. Did he agree I asked? He said he thought that made sense.
I once again explained the need for bookeeping purposes why reciept needed labeling and why a custome bill needed verbage for a customer history as well as the customer clearly understanding what was done at their home. I also said this "Mike since we both agree that the only things that don't happen in a company are the fault of the leader I want you to clearly understand that these two paper work issues are not an option and will happen whether you are here or not. Do you understand what I am saying or should I make it more clear?"
We have had no more paper work issues. And I think it is important that you understand that once you decide to take control of your company someone may challenge you and force you to do something drastic. Like fire them. Make the decision going in how far you are willing to go to enforce this issue and be prepared to do it if need be. I was prepared to fire my brother whom I think a great deal of and it would have hurt me to do so. (and made Christmas really lousy for a number of years I am sure) And my brother also knew that. DanT
Buy the book! It will be a real eye opener for you."....showing up on time" and all of the: "I'm sorrys"That's a separate issue I'll post about later after my hard drive has completed it's "indexing." Son in the service, eh. And here I thought you were a young-er guy. And I'm proud of you - not the typical macho know-it-all construction guy - learning even from your son. Damn, you're smart! Must have inherited it from your son. (-:
thanks for the advice, my info is wrong, I am a bit older then late 30s. should say 40s
I will get the book as soon as im done reading the one I am now
About tardiness: Here’s what I suggested to another contractor on another forum to eliminate it. Last I heard it worked for him.The next time one of your guys is late, make a chronological list of every single thing that his tardiness (problem) created as far as delays or problems down the road. The 1st time I came up with this idea was when an employee (works with a sub as well), was a half day late.1. I got chewed out by the owner.
2. The electrician had to be rescheduled.
3. Ditto for the plumber
4. Ditto for the drywall sub
5. Ditto for our trim guy
6. Ditto for our painter.I made the list in detail, and it also included rescheduling starting another project by one day, calling that owner and those impacted subs.Not just wanting to jump all over this guy and humiliate him, I made him aware of how important his role is not only to our company, but to each project we work on, AND his own and our company’s credibility with not only each owner, but each sub as well.It worked, and he must have discussed this with our other staff because we started getting occasional calls several days in advance if anyone had to be late for even an hour or so. And when Mommy was sick at home, they often got someone else to take Johnnie to school, or whatever.Like any “system”, it must be put on paper. Verbal talks often do not include the emphasis or importance of the results of delays by even one person. Reading it has more of an impact that verbalizing it - and is remembered. No one want’s to go through that again - unless thery are nitwits or just don’t care, and if that’s the case, they are not “A” or “B”, but “C” people who must be terminated.
Never under estimate assertiveness training, you can learn to tell people what you want and what you think and feel without offending them. Tell them what you want ," I want you not to use your phone on this job while working and I don't want people calling you. I am paying you for your time and I do not want you phoning on my time."
A friend of mine had a cabinet shop and he figured if an employee left his tools to make a call or receive a call it took that person 15 to 30 minutes to get back into the groove of the work he was doing.
Isamemon- Most of your messages said don't do the manual. I agree. I've been practicing law for 20 years in New York, handled a bunch of litigation. The rules are going to become a problem for you because there are always exceptions, and always smart alecks trying to circumvent them. I do believe in a paper trail, and after a verbal warning, I would give the guy something in writing, short and sweet, letting him know what's up, for the next time/last time.
As a small business owner, your employees are at-will, and if they want to sue you, very few lawyers are going to be interested in taking the case. It's a small job, and there's no return. But sometimes the paper can be important in administrative settings too (Labor Board or even Small Claims court). As a former employer, I also agree that once they start telling you what to do, you are never going to win again. Stop their nonsense now. As far as the nolo people, they have some good stuff if you want to learn.
Don
One must remember, as I read in a recent article, the term "intentional congruence." As explained by it's author: "Intentional congruence is about leading a life where what you believe, what you say and what you do are not only aligned, they reinforce each other. But leading that life is first about realizing what you stand for. What are your deeply held principles?"Most of us spend more time at work and more time with our staff than with our families. Our lives must be at work as they are at home or leisure. If we do not hire and retain people whose own values reflect ours, we in effect, operate each day as in a room filled with gnats, of which we find ourselves continually swatting.We "create" our businesses. They are no different from any picture make of paint on canvas. They reflect our value "system." If when doing so we do not consciously include shared values, then we consciously sabotage any efforts and energy we expend in building and operating our businesses. Our staff, and I have learned in my nearly 40 years as both a manager and a business owner, our customers as well, must mirror our own "intentional congruence". I have learned the hard way to walk away from customers deemed not trustworthy, and certainly not deserving of the company of our services. As business people this is gutsy because we are taught to always obtain business, not deny it.As for staff, if we do not place enough importance upon interviewing, hiring, training, even terminating employees when mandated, and operating from a visible, written "system" of operations, then we relinquish control over our business and life to the wind and whims of everyone who is placed, or places themselves, in an important position of our lives. And our personal lives cannot be detached from our business lives because each impacts the other on a perpetual basis.And play it safe and document any discussion with an employee of the chastising nature. In fact, the complimenting nature as well. If some legal issue should arise in the future, you'll have your rear end covered via those HR notes of meetings.We should not micro-manage, but we must control all aspects of our businesses. Remember, there are several reasons why our industry has an 85% plus failure rate. Lack of starting capital, ignorance of business ownership expertise, and losing control of one's business are the top three reasons for our failures. Beware the "tradesmen mentality" but embrace the "business mentality." They are as different as botany and metallurgy.Well, you now have a decent discussion of the pros and cons of either an EM or OP. Good luck regardless of your decision.
Hammerlaw and Sonny,
very well put, both of you
it is too bad that a small business cant just be a group of friends without something going wrong
Ive been there, and in no way am I an expert, far from. But you two , as well as many other posts here give good info and food for thought
DW walked in asked me what I was reading, and I said this thread was about an employee stopping work to answer a cell phone. After reading your original post she had some comments...
DW: He stopped and made his Boss wait while he answered his cellphone???
Me: Yup.
DW: Did he get fired?
Me: Nope, they talked about it.
DW: He's a Wuss. He should lay down the law about cellphones, and fire the next guy who steps over the line.
Aint she sweet?
She's sweet - and right!
I'll pass that along...
This guy must work at a lot of different places because he works with us right now. His wife works full time but can find time during the day to call him upwards of 10 times. Maybe we should have a talk with the bosses from these other companies.
Work relationships can get clouded just like family relationships: Yesterday my girlfriend asked me what i was doing in the shop, I thought she was really saying somthing like "you're waisting time" but she was actually just curious. Somtimes at work, similar things happen, there is more happening in terms of communication that just the words, and somtimes the words are precieved only as a vehicle for the other stuff. Maby your employee doesent understand why you dont want him to answer the phone at work and just thinks that your stressed out and taking it out on him. It's obviose to us(why not to chat on the cell at work) but I think doing what sonny suggested and sitting down with him, taking time out of work for a couple of minutes, and telling him all of the 'reaction' from that 'action' could be eye opening for him. It sounds to me like if you've kept him around for as long as you have allready, he probably is worth the investment and hopefully when he understands WHY you dont want him chatting on the cell at work, will respect that. Once you've made that clear, if he still is disrespectfull with your time, its probably time to train a new employee.
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measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
LOVE YOUR TAG LINE!!!!
My sides actually hurt from trying not to laugh. That is good, needs to go into the hall of fame for tag lines.......
Now back to the regular discussion......
-m2akita
haha, thankz
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measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
That guy doesnt work for you, he works for me, at least for one more week. Cell phone, comes in late(the only thing I can count on him for), and smoking. Caught him smoking in the attic once NO WAY! Talked to him about it, then went up there about a month later and more butts. No respect for the customer. HO moved on about a week ago(about a half million dollar house) and I told him no more smoking in the house......didnt work.
He would've been gone long ago except hes my "handshake agreement" business partner. I've just had it though, my seven year old is getting tired of my ranting about him. Time to simplify my life.
Interesting take on the smoking partner. Some housing companies are clamping hard on the smoking. Insurance is one factor, but its a major turn off for a non-smoking homebuyer seeing butts laying around their new home. Looks very bad on the contractor.
After several warnings one of the older finishing contractors I worked for was caught smoking by one of the housing company superintendants. He was told to pack up his tools, and lost his contract. He'd been with them for over 8 years.
Ok Isamemon,
I think I mentioned in another post that I could be a jacka$$. As an employee and as an owner, My phone stayed in the truck. I got out to check it at break time and lunch.
If I had a reason to carry it such as,very sick wife or kids, Extremely sick family member or a big legal deal like a new house I would let my boss know. Just like someone else mentioned I put it on single ring. When it did ring I would wait untila natural break in the action and then see who called and if it required a response right away or if it could wait until the next break.
You might suggest that arrangement to your employee. On the other hand, if I would have been the one waiting on him while we were rolling up trusses, He would be long gone already.
One last note. Carrying such a distractrion while rolling up trusses? Sounds like a safety problem to me.