Hello All,
I am going to be installing new tile in a bath room and have removed old tile and underlay. I went to HD and was looking for the cement board I have used in the past. I was able to locate the board but it was in 8′ sheets and I asked if they still sold the 5′ ones because the area is small and I felt 3 5′ sheets would be easier to work with and carry. The answer was I could use the Duraroc as it was the same thing. I said it appeared to be Drywall with a different paper. No that was the product to be used, “same as cement board was the answer from 2 different associates” I bought the Duraroc and cut it but have not screwed it to the floor yet. Are these people right? The floor is 1×6 with 3/8 -1/2 spacing between them, do I just spread the adhesive to the boards so it does not fall thru to the basement and make a mess or can I just screw it to the floor. Thanks in advance.
Replies
Never seen cement board in anything but 3'x5' sheets, but then I'm a displaced Canuk in North Carolina. Can't imagine carting 4x8 sheets of cement board, weight alone, never mind breaking them. Thought the 3x5 sheets, besides being lighter, helped avoid ovelapping joints.
That aside I would think that unless your floor joists are 12" oc or less then 1x6 is not stiff enough for a tile floor, even with cement or whatever on top. 3/4" substrate would be the rock bottom minimum, and rocky at that. I'd recommend slapping another layer of subfloor before the cement board or whatever.
I'm originally from Sudbury myself - "Only God can make a tree, but did he ever try in Sudbury".
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Hi Gdcarpenter,
Last time I stayed in Sudbury about 20 years ago. Are the trees still is bad shape? is there any improvement? I was really struck by the devastation from the smelters.
Hope things are better.
Virginbuild
Ah, Sudbury...proving ground for the Lunar Rover......
An interesting bit of trivia that. Sure did look like a lunar landscape when I was a yungan. Not to be confused with a Jungian.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "same as drywall but with a different paper"- i've used duraroc and hardibacker, neither of which has a paper facing. duraroc has a fiberglass mesh embedded in it, though. either of those products would work fine for floor tile backing.
I would put plywood down over the 1x6 floor if the gaps are that big, probably 1/2" would do it, but check the joist spacing. If it's over 16", you might need to beef it up to keep it from flexing and cracking the tile. Either way, definitely put a layer of thinset underneath the backerboard before you put it down on the floor- it gives the cement board an even support even if the existing floor has humps and dips.
You should also check the size and span of the floor joists- if the joists are overspanned, it's very easy to crack tile. especially larger tiles. good luck
zak
It is most likely DensShield. It is gypsum with a textured coating on it.
A builder I know uses it in shower/bath areas. I prefer Wonderboard or Duraroc. Didn't care for Hardi Backerboard.
DON'T put the DensShield on the floor. You'll be walking on sheetrock.
I'm curious as to why you don't like Hardibacker?
To be honest, I've used Wonderboard, not Duraroc.I've used Hardi's twice, once 1/2", once 1/4". Tub walls. While I preferred the 1/2" (stupid sales person said 1/4 would be strong enough-wrong) I found it to be not as strong as Wonderboard. Also, I couldn't put the screws in it to fasten that I usually use. They wouldn't sit flush or countersink like in Wonderboard.Another tilesetter told me to shoot it in with a framing gun. It worked, but not real happy.Don't get me wrong. I'm not crazy about working with Wonderboard, but I think I have it figured out a little better.Perhaps I just need some more experience with it.Do you prefer it to Wonderboard?How about on the floor? I'll use 1/2" Wonder board as an underlayment for bathroon tile.I'm not always too bright, so I'm always open to new ways. It just might take a long time to get me to try them.
I used to be like you and preferred Wonderboard to Durock. It was also because you could get a warranty from Custom Building Products (mfr) if you did it right.
However, a little knowledge about Hardibacker and you will change too. It is similar to WB and D in that it is a cement backer unit, they are all water impervious though none are waterproof. They all need to be mortared down in addition to mechanical fasteners. And they all need to be taped with a Alkaline resistant mesh tape.
However, that is where the similarities end...
Neither WB or D can go over OSB. H can. WB and D have a compressive strength of 2500 to 2o00 lbs/in. Hardi is 7500. It also will not leave a mess, cut your hands all up, scratch your tub, weigh as much, can be cut like drywall by score and snap or with an electric shears, and it has a preprinted fastener pattern on it as well as a 1" grid to aid in cutting.
I have a comparison sheet at work, but will not be able to get it for a week...hang on.
I also used to use Durock, and have since converted to HardiBacker. HardiBacker is much easier to handle, less mess, and, probably most importantly, I find it easier to set the tile on - just a nicer more uniform surface. HardiBacker also doesn't have that nasty amonia smell that Durock has.
Yep, I've switched to Hardi too. Much easier to cut, lighter, smoother, etc. The 1/4" isn't strong enough for walls, like someone else said, but it's great for floors.
Also, i wouldn't use framing nails or piffin screws- they'll rust. Roofing nails would be ok, but i prefer epoxy coated deck screws.
zak
I too think screws are the way to go, but only on the 1/2". Too many times with the 1/4" they pulled thru...so much that now I use mortar and a roofing gun with 1 1/4" galv. roofing nail. It's SO FAST, and just as good, (Hardi warranties it and shows it in their install video). It also saves all those wholes in my fingers from when the screw tip slid off and undoubtedly gets me instead.
Also, you're right 1/4" is NOT for walls.
You really need 1 1/8" of glued and screwed subfloor before adding a tile backer. Any less will have excess deflection that'll lead to popped tiles and premature failure.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Thanks to everyone for the quick response. I had another look this morning and the floor joists are 2x8 16" c. flooring is 1x6 and the space is about 1/4" between the boards. I suppose I had better cover with 1/2 to 3/4 ply. The Room is actually more of a Powder Room as it only has sink and toilet and entire room is only 4x6 in size, but I don't want tile cracks or popping so I will add the ply. Thanks again, and I just want to say I really enjoy this site and all the info that is available.
Tarpaper, wire mesh and a mud job.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Yuo and my dad would say the same thing. You ever use the plastic grid stuff that came out in the 80"s?Anyway, Hardi beats hands down, good stuff. 1/4 for floors and 1/2 for walls.- roofing gun works great, galvanized nails!!- Qwik drive screw gun for floors with 1/4, cut and tile( staggert like ply, and I like to go perpendicular to the ply, for no good reason other than thats how i started doing it.- glue an screw some 3/4 or two sheets 1/2 ply (perpendicular to ech other) and you got a pretty ridgid floor as long as your floor joists are good. - easiest way to stiffen a floor from crawlspace is to strong back it. ( you put a beam between two existing and you effectively cut the san in half, cheaper , easier and more effective than doubling up joistsdude with the bathroom floor, you could also hack out all that 1x6 and drop in a 1/2 + 1/2 ply sandwich or 1 1/8 (expensive ply) then slap the hardie boardthat way your floor isnt too thick !
-by the time you put that other guys 11/8 and 1/4 board then tile you are gonna have to cut 2 inches off the bottom of your door....OOPS! dont forget the crapper!, Don't forget to reset the flange! ! ! ! -by the time that floor is retarde]ly thick an the have to drop the commode in again...you're screwwed, if you end up not resetting the toilet flange higher, and stack the fattie wax rings with the rubber thing in it and find some long closet bolts...not the way i recomend!!, you could leak into you crawlspace/basement and not know it for a long time!!!- And please ! don't bury your toilet in the ply/cement board/ tile/ grout,
because you didn't pull the toilet first.I cut the board twice and its still too short ! ! !
Edited 1/8/2006 4:13 am by LEMONJELLO
Wonderboard and Duroc are brand names for similar products (cement board). In KY, there are both available in 3x5 and 4x8 sheets. Shooting them down with a framing nailer is not an acceptable method according to either brand's instructions.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Never seen either of them in 4x8 here.I assume you're referring to me about the framing nailer. I said I was told to use it for Hardi's board. Probably not the correct way to install that.On Wonderboard, almost 20 years ago we used roofing nails. Now I always use the rock screws.Do you know the correct way to install Hardi Backerboard?
I've used it, but I can't remember. I think they've got the manual on their site. I'll lokk.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Bill,
The issue here is stiffness. Your floor structure is not stiff enough. You want the stiffest, thickest material as foundation. In order of stiffness, your choices are:
1. The thickest layer of mud (cement) you can fit in there.
2. Same thickness as above, made of several layers of cement board with cementitious (rigid) bonding between layers.
3. Same as 2. without bonding. Just screwed together.
4. Everything else.
DG/Builder
Thanks, I will be going as thick as possible, omly want to do the job once. Appreciate your advise. Bill
Yup. Eric Paulson summarized your best choice: tar paper, wire mesh, mud job.
DG/Builder