Hi there….I have been asked to tile a basement laundry room and bathroom. Not a problem except for the 1959 resilient floor tile that is currently glued down to the concrete. My question is:
1.) Are there any thinsets you would recommend for this application?
2.) I am not confident that all the existing resilient tile is 100% stuck down, in some areas pieces have chipped away or come loose. I do NOT feel like removing asbestos tile considering the majority of it isn’t coming up.
3.) If I were to put plywood down overtop of the concrete/resilient, what is the best way to attach the plywood to the existing floor? Thinset with concrete screws?
Any other ideas/suggestions are welcome! Thanks in advance…
Mike
Replies
Let me be the first to jump in here, I am not a builder, just a diy'er with a idea that plywood would be a poor choice over the original flooring. I would thinset tile backer board "durock" , trying to concrete screw that down would be difficult to say the least (There may be even better mastic types for the durock than thinset, make sure if you do go with a mastic you have pleanty of ventilation and no open flame. ) If for any reason there is ever a leak or spill your ply may swell if moisture can get to it and result in the tile coming up. Good luck
Hi Jim, thanks for the speedy response. My main concern is the existing resilient tile for 2 reasons:
1.) There is some tile that is loose or could become loose which would be disastrous if I put ceramic over top.
2.) Even if I went around and chipped up any loose tiles, could I trust a thinnest/mortar to properly bond to the remaining tiles? The resilient tiles seem rather glossy and I won't be running around trying to scuff the surface due to the asbestos.
I had thought about putting down durock but my big question is how to bond it properly considering the existing floor. Durock was no problem on the last floor I did but I also had a plywood subfloor to thinset and screw to (NOT concrete).
Mike
I think Hardibacker or durock is a good idea. I would use a mastic, or you could tapcon, or use an actuated gun, not sure if that would blast the durock, but it sure would hold. I would also make sure they say it stays dry down there, otherwise I might even put a coat of moisture barrier as well right on top of the old resilient.
-zen
Youre on the right track.
I'm already a goner. I busted my basement floor to install plumbing drains before I realized the tile on the floor had asbestos. So much for those wonderful retirement years. I guess there will be more social security for you guys when you retire. Good luck on your project.
Oh... As far as what to do about your tile. I would have it properly abated. Then apply the ceramic tile. There's nothing worse than having to do the job twice.
-terry-Chief of all sinners
Dont be so sure chief, there is a good chance that the tile you removed was only a % of asbestos.
There are plenty of people that are never effected.
-zen
My dad used to cut the stuff in sheets with a sidewinder, and yeah hes still kickin.
Ply is definitely not your answer, even treated...you're only asking for a bigger headache than properly abating the asbestos tile. Cement board is a better option but still not the best due to inability to screw the floor down as the manufacturers recommend.
The best way to cover this tile and sleep well at night would be to use the proper self leveling compound to cover the entire floor. Make sure you use the right self-leveling compound to cover existing floor coverings and follow all the prep for the product to a tee. Once again, make sure you get the right self-leveling compound that can be used over existing resilient tiles. Then 24 hours after applying the self-leveling, apply at least one layer of an anti-transfer membrane down before tiling. The anti-transfer membrane allows cracks of 1/8" or less under the new tile to not transfer into and crack the new tile.
If you do have loose existing tiles then you legally cannot abate them for your client unless you are licensed for asbestos removal. The best way to get around abating would be to try and carefully re-secure the loose pieces with heavy duty construction adhesive.
Just my 1 cent after taxes,
Bill
Hi Bill, thanks for your post. Are you saying there are self levelling products that guarantee a bond to resilient flooring? I will have to look around, Custom Building Products didn't have anything.
Even if I could find a product with a solid guarantee, I'm not sure I trust all the tiles to stay put down the road, thus causing the levelling compound to fail.
Mike
I think that if you treat this floor the same way that you would prep the floor for hard wood flooring in a basement that you would be okay,this includes vapour barriers,wood sleepers(treated),plywood,almost like furring the floor out if you could spare the room.there is also a product out that i am not quite familier with but have seen it used in basement floor app.its a roll of plastic that is waffered,acts like a moisture barrier,the waffers keeps it off the old floor enough to let any moisture or whatever pass under it.you then apply a thin set or mortar on top of that,and you should be ready to go.sorry that i dont have more info on that product but i think that would be the best if you could tack it down.
Hi...thanks for the reply. Is this the orange Schluter product - "Ditra"? I've heard good things about it.
http://www.schluter.com/english/products/2002/sectionf/ditra/601-ditra.html#application
Mike
Mike,
Do a Google search on asbestos floor tile and you will find that the regulations on removing it aren't anywhere as serious as some people make it sound.It isn't the same as bagging asbestos insulation off of heating pipes.My local landfill accepts it as construction debris.Use a scraper,shovel or wrecking bar and make an hour project out of removing it.Don't make the project harder than it has to be.
Barry
Hi Barry, I have to agree, I'm not overly concerned with the Asbestos issue. Common sense dictates that I wouldn't go sanding or scuffing the tile to create a better 'tooth' for any compounds to adhere thus creating the hazardous dust and particles.
Having said that, I've been told by a local building inspector that the easiest way to deal with this is to simply leave it and go over it. I tried prying these up on another job and let me tell you, the cutback adhesive made it near impossible on the majority of the floor. In hindsight I shoulda left it and put my new plywood directly on top (this was a kitchen not a basement).
Mike
Well I guess each case is different.My last house was a ranch on a concrete slab and the tiles came up pretty easy.Of course violence was the answer as it often is.For me slamming a wrecking bar into the leading edge kept them moving.Most of the tiles came up whole.I removed the tile from every room (could of carpeted over some but didn't want to claim it on the the real estate disclosure form) and the living room,14x20, I know my friend and I did in just a couple of hours.
On the other hand the house I have now had 4 layers of vinyl tile in the kitchen when I bought it.You could see the 50's green mottled asbestos,60's gold flecked sheet vinyl,70's avacodo and harvest gold Moorish pattern,and 80's cheap fake Colonial squares.The sum of them on top of each other was a MF to get off in pieces.The first layer of asbestos tile bonded to the plywood subfloor far better than to the concrete in the last house.I'll bet it took four nights and my new shop-vac still stinks from that stuff.
Edited 3/15/2005 3:30 pm ET by IBEW Barry
Just went through the same process.
I ripped up about 250sq ft of asbestos tile over concrete and then laid down ceramic tile.
I found that using water on the asbestos tile seems to loosen them up. Some come up easier than others. Put the stuff curbside and the town took it away.
Used some good thinset to lay the tile, worked great.
Covering up the asbestos will probably lead to problems later and your best move is to rip it up.
Jay
without seeing the floor, however if it is in good shape you might just leave it down and apply kera bond keralastic as your setting compound. never have gone over a vinly floor ,but bid one and my supplier said I could leave it down and use kera bond. Have used the product in setting flagstone and its pretty strong stuff.
So...BEST case scenario: All of the 9x9 tiles pop off (with or without violence). What is the black adhesive I can see underneath all about? Is this something I can use a thinset on now?
I phoned Custom Building Products and they stated they do not have any product that will adhere to resilient tiles. The more I think about it though, it wouldn't be prudent to tile directly over this incase they should ever let loose. My tile job will only be as good as the substrate.
Worst case scenario, try to creat a floating floor system with minimal to no flex...
Sound about right?
Try a hot iron on a wet cloth on the tile, many times they will come right off. some take longer and a few will be buggers but the majority will be relativel easy. he said.every day of my life, I am forced to add another name to the list of those people who can just " kiss my arse"
The black stuff is the old adhesive obviously and at my last house I obsessed over trying to remove it to get a good bond to the concrete.I could scrape a few ridges off but that was it.If yours is anything like mine it's bonded tighter than a bull's a$$ to the concrete.Eventually I went right over it with the thinset and didn't have one problem with the thinset or tiles sticking to the floor.
Thanks to all the replies and especially to DANE who went the extra mile. I have done several tile jobs in the past however I was stumped by the prospect of this job due to the resilient flooring issue.
I'm going to start chipping away this week and see where I get. Maybe that circa 1960's iron I bought at a garage sale for $2 will come in handy. I used to wax my skis with this and thought it would be good for any edge banding but I may have a new use for it on this job.
Thanks again for the interest. Mike.
My part time job is working as a laborer for a tile setter. I just called him and this is what he said.
With the tile being that old you are best to remove all of it. Making sure that you wear a respirator when you do. You must also remove as much of the glue as you can. The best way to do that is to scrap it. We have a tool that we use to remove the tile because we do so much of it, but a flat shovel will do the job as well. A very sharp scraper will be needed to take up the glue.
After you get the floor ready then put down your thin set. We use Lata Crete multi purpose. You should be able to get this at any HC near you. All you do is add water.
There are different trowels that can be used. The size of the "teeth" is what determines how much thin set you put down. You want to make sure the the entire tile is supported with the thin set. Tap the tile lightly and listen for a hollow sound. If there is, then lift the tile out and put some more thin set in the area of the tile that needs it. You also don't want so much thin set that it squashes out in the grout line, as this will interfere with grouting.
To make a nice straight line measure your space for the centerline and chalk it. Then find your wife's hair spray and spray the centerline with it so you don't loose it as you walk around on it. Then measure from the wall at the back of the room the distance of the tile plus the width of one grout line so that you will have enough space to put down two (2) rows of tile. Use a chalk line at this measurement, making sure as well that it is 90 degrees to the centerline. Start laying your tile at the point where the two lines cross. DO NOT put your thinset over your lines or you will not beable to see them. It is ok that the tile doesn't have thinset along the very edge of it. Always start at the chalk line when laying down your tile, then put the next row in behind the first row. Eye ball your grout lines to make sure that they are the same width all the way down and across. Some people like to use those spacer things but we have found out that the chalk line works better. Not all tile is square. Lately we have been laying 16'' tile and it is not uncommon to find some of the tile to be as much as an 1/8'' out of square or the tile bigger or smaller by the same amount from one box to another. You will also need a striker for cutting the tile when a straight cut is needed, like along the walls. You could use a tile saw for this if you can find one for rent, if this is the only job that you will be doing. You will need the saw for going around door jams and corners. When going around these areas again use your chalk line to keep every thing straight. You want it to look like the tile went under the wall when in reality you went around it.
After you get the tile down you should beable to do the grouting the next day. Until then it is a DO NOT ENTER area.
Grouting, this is the tile setters worst part of the job. I recommend that you use sand grout with a latex bounding agent. It goes down much easier and is much easier to wipe up. All you do is add water and can be found at your local HC. The trowel that you use has a rubber bottom to it and is smooth. A couple of sponges will be needed as well and those to can be bought at the HC, your wife's sponges will not be big enough for this job. You will want to wear heavy rubber gloves as the sand will make your hands raw. You will also need a couple of five gallon buckets.
Start again by the wall. Work the grout into the grout line along the wall and a width of a couple of feet out from the wall. When you get all along the wall then stop grouting and start wiping up the excess grout. DO NOT ATTEMP TO DO THE ENTIRE FLOOR BEFORE WIPING.
Using lots of water that is in the sponge,work the sponge in a circular movement. This works the grout down into the line more and pulls out the excess grout at the same time. After doing a few feet of this then rinse out your sponge and ring out as much water as you can. Then wipe up the excess grout. Make one short swipe with the sponge then turn it over and make another short swipe, then rinse out the sponge again. Your looking for a streak free grout line and an even thickness in the line. Keep going like this until you have gotten up all the grout that you have put down. Then do another line a couple of feet wide and then wipe. If you want to have someone help you do the wiping that is fine just remember this one thing, You can put down the grout faster then it can be wiped up, so you will have to stop and help with the wiping up.
I know that this is a long posting but you didn't indicate your level of expertise at this and someone else might benefit from it as well.
I hope that you will enjoy your new floor.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.