CHALK LINES – that last and last???
toolbear
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
CHALK LINES…
“Where did all the chalk lines go, short time passing…”
We are doing a House in a Box build for Katrina relief. The layout lines are snapped on a large deck on Friday. On Saturday we can hardly see them. There must be a hall here somewhere. Yes, the boys were supposed to spay them with clear stuff. Didn’t. But…
It must be possible to get more than one day out of a chalk line. We have several more homes to fab on this platform before the show moves to another parking lot.
The reviews on those ink lines were not that positive.
Anyone have a solution for snapping a line that will last and last?
The ToolBear
“Never met a man who couldn’t teach me something.” Anon.
Replies
Red chalk.
Ditto on the red chalk. Just make sure you get 'em in the right place the first time.
Red chalk also. Red chalk stays on through thunderstorms, days and days of rain. It also stays on after snow and ice. I don't know why but it does.
Been ages since I've talked with "the powers that know", but it used be done with concretedye color powder....NEVER comes off...I used to see layout guys on large home tracts looking redder than a strwberry at the end of the day. They used to use a large coffecan filled with concrete to hold the other end of their string line and they would layout a bunch of homes in a day, marked openings and headers, cripples, and window's subsill sizes as they went.
If you read the red chalk bottle, it says there is "no known way to remove" it.
A friend and I got a good laugh about the "no known way to remove . . ." line - we pictured rocket scientists and brain surgeons throwing up their hands and stalking away . . .
Forrest
they call it dead red around here. It will be there till you die, and if you cant get it up on a stain concrete job you're dead. i ususlly have to get the grinder out.. 2+3=7
I was just looking at the fascia of the house I just moved out of wondering how to make the gutters stop leaking. The house was built in 1985. The gutter installer's red chalk lines are still there.
Ron
red chalk again
just don't use it to snap lines on any materials that will be painted, like sheetrock
I learned that one the hard way
black is best. And not Irwin brand. Sorry I forget the name of it but it is made in Canada and is pernament chalk. We found it waybetterthan other brands for layout on concrete. As we may go back a year after and pull off a grid and it will still be visable.
One of my first bone head mistakes.... Red chalk, Snapped a line on a cedar deck to help guide me in nailing it down.
Opps. I think the line is still there.
GoodLuck
Shep,
I did the same thing to SR. 3 coats of primer later the red still bleeds through. To all the rocket scientists and brain surgeons out there who have not thrown there hands up in disgust --How do you get rid of it?
This was years ago, but I think we sealed it in with some Zinnser BIN, the shellac-based stuff.
BIN is great for sealing in all kinds of stains
The concrete guys use red on our jobs to point out where the post tenension cables are in the slab.
The framers use alot of blue.
I use black to lay out my lines----1 I know whose lines are whose. 2 It covers up their lines & makes a big mess when I'm done.
I don't know what the other posts' circumstances are with red chalk, but I had the samee prob. with them disappearing, what I do now is cover them with clear coat spray, you can find it in any big-box or contractors supply. Lots of luck.
You had that problem with red chalk?Joe Carola
Yes I have, if you chalk your lines and spray them with clear-coat a little mosture will bring them back up [i.e. a wet rag,] this stuff does not cost that much; much less than the irritation of doing them over.
Red washes off around here. Plus, it's tought to see on the OSBs we use. But then again, I'm addicted to wearing those red glasses that come with the laser :-) Just kidding. Those things trip me out.
I thought you just eyeballed the shoes and didn't even snap lines........;-)Joe Carola
I'm not that big a hack.
. . . .well maybe
Try wearing those glasses while driving into the sunset...80Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
i have one bottle of neon orange... have no idea where i got it... but inside in low light... i don't know about the "lasting" factor but for see'n it NOW it's the bomb...
p
RED CHALK
Well, the folks are saying, "Red chalk, red chalk."
Hell, we're using red chalk. It has been clear and sunny and the stuff is not wearing very well. I don't see persistence being an issue with it. Wish it were. Are we using the wrong red chalk? It's the Home Depot stuff.
Used some black chalk on a tile job for a bit. We had the feeling that it would not come off, but would get on the tile and stay, so back to blue. Wonder if it was lampblack.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I didn't read every word to see if this had been suggested, but what about the tajima ink lines? seems like even if their ink didn't do the trick, it wouldn't be too hard to procure some weatherproof ink. They've got'em at amazon.
zak
I've been thinking about that myself. I believe that may be a lot more permant and clear than a chalk mark.
We bought an ink line about 2 1/2 years ago. It works well on damp subfloor, but if its wetter than that, the ink bleeds and you end up with about a 1" Rorshadt test :-)
Not sure how the line stays through the wet weather. It just isn't worth using for me. Plus, I don't like ink all over my hands and then my face :-)
Ink lines...
I was thinking that myself. They offer a WP ink. However, the user reviews on the ink version of their chalk box at Amazon were not that Happy Camper.
Anyone out there with ink line experience - tell us all about it.
I have the Tajima chalk model and it works fine. Crisp, thin line. Besides: Yo, we be stylin' with that red aluminum box. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
what about the tajima ink lines?I wondered if somebody was going to bring that up. I was doing some remodeling in an appartment a chinese student was renting and I ask him if they used "ink lines" in China. He said, "Oh no - chalk lines".
I believe ink lines are more of a Japanese tool. I bought one of the Tajima ink lines a few years ago. I used it a couple of times, but in the end found it to be more trouble than it was worth. Not to mention I look silly with red ink all over my face.
They'll leave a mark on wet lumber, but often the mark 'splatters' or blurs and you end up with about a 1/4" wide line. Did I mention how messy they are? Also, the Tajima line was only about 25' IIRC. I could be wrong on that one. I also didn't like the unit itself. It had a gimicky self-retracting deal that was finicky at best. In general I was kinda disappointed.
I also didn't like living in constant fear of the dang thing leaking red ink all over me and my bags until I realized it much too late. A very definate possibility.View Image
The only point of my post was if you want your lay-out lines to stay, clear coat them, if you are laying out something that you don't want them showing after you are done, don't clear coat.
We need to stock some clear coat. Our reds are not lasting. Got to try that Irwin black. It looked wicked. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Red chalk. Unless of course your red/green color blind.
Unless of course your red/green color blind.
Why? Does the red chalk wash off sooner if you're color blind?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
i thought you retired
I get reincarnated on weekends.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
good for you. no one likes a quitter.
glad to see your still spreading your wisdom around here, and sarcasm
GoodLuck.
Color blind.
The guy holding the other end of the line was, sorta. Could not see the red keel marks on the black felt paper. Yellow - not a problem.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Black chalk works the best hands down. Stay away from red or blue if you want it to last. We had 27 days straight of rain, and we could still see the lines.
27 days of rain...
Are you in the NorthWet? We do that in the summer.
Sent the kid a note: Got rain?The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Good old Pacific NW.
Seahawks just won :-)
Another vote for black.
Doing a job with Philter before Xmas and I had red in my box, got 2 new Irwins for him & me, used the blue .... came off within 4 hours of rain (Wet coast of Canada). So did the red.
Bought a bottle of Irwin black - the layout lines are still there.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Pacific NorthWet...
When I framed there in the winter, I had drain grommets put in my bags.
I'll be back up in June and head south when the rain starts to blow sideways.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Red is forever.
Hammerelbow......."red is forever".......1972 red chalk line on white alum. sidding in gable , red is gone but there is a distinctive gray line where the red once was, August 2005.
another vote for black, and clear it down if exposed long. Don't use it where it has to go away, because it won't. And keep you hands off your face, unless you like the messy mechanic look.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I've always had good luck with red chalk. Never tried black. Also, I have a chalk line that has a string that is thicker than most, but not the super duty one sometimes used for roofing. The one I'm referring to has a red plastic roughly octagional shaped "box" and is made in france. Think the brand is either MIL, MD or something like that. Only place I've seen them is at a local contractor's supply. Cost about $8. May not be heavy duty enough for full time framers, as the plastic bodies crack after a while.
Sounds like clear spraypait is the ticket for something that has to last for months though.
@@@ May not be heavy duty enough for full time framers, as the plastic bodies crack after a while.
Perhaps not but...
I sure see a LOT of Irwin plastic models out there - the kind that comes with a bottle of chalk. Got about 5 myself. Then there are some of the old aluminum models here and there. They lack the clutch the newer Irwins have. The clutch is a very nice feature.
Our first experience with the fancy Irwin ($10) was not good. Gears stripped out.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I still have my metal Stanley from like 1974 when I had my first framing job. Don't carry that one any more, it's more kind of a sentimental thing now...
Here's what Irwin says about chalk colors.
Billy
http://www.irwin.com
All chalk colors are not equal. Learn how to choose the right color.
One of the most common assumptions contractors make is selecting chalk color for its visibility. While being able to read chalk lines against a colored work surface is important, it is not the only consideration. The type of surface material, project type, and location should also be factored in.
Blue is a good, all-purpose chalk that is easily removable when not applied to a porous surface. It's suitable for framing or hanging drywall because blue is easily distinguishable on white or off-white surfaces. Most trim and interior work is marked in white chalk primarily because it will not stain interior walls, carpets, countertops, or floors.
When working outside in the elements or with materials like concrete and metal, permanence is the top priority. Once popped, black or red will make a sharp, long-lasting mark that will not rub or wash off, making either color ideal for subfloors, parking lots, or roofs. Remember to keep both of these products far away from finish materials.
What about dark workplaces? White and blue chalk is nearly impossible to see in the low light of basements. That's why many electricians and plumbers choose fluorescent orange, fluorescent green or yellow chalks because they practically glow in the dark.
But low-light areas are not the only use for these non-traditional colors. Orange, green and yellow can also be used to differentiate contractors' marks, allowing anyone to easily follow plumber's lines without mistaking them for electricity lines. When the plans for a job have changed, which is known to happen in construction, having more than one color to re-mark an area comes in handy.
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A: IRWIN makes permanent chalk in either black or red. Because it won't rub, fade or wash away, black or red chalk is perfect for use on subfloors, concrete, metal, and roofs. There is no need to polyurethane. Just snap a line, and it's set. Red, black and yellow chalks are not removable, so keep them away from finish material.
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A: Choosing the appropriate chalk if very important. Blue chalk is considered a non-permanent color. It can many times wash away but on some surfaces it can be permanent. If used indoors I always recommend white if possible. All other colors red, orange, green, yellow and black are permanent colors. It is nearly impossible to remove them. Choose your chalk color based upon permanancy, contrast to surface it's being used on.
@@@ Irwin note
Around here, reading the directions is considered cheating. <g>
Thanks for looking that up. I will share this data with the boys. Sounds like not using black on that tile job was a Good Career Move.
I have a gallon of bright green. See how that persists.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Bear,
Before you give up on red chalk, try this brand.....
http://www.amazon.com
It's not exactly cheap, but is far better than the Irwin/Straight Line stuff. Stays on the line better too. Despite what the bottle says, this stuff won't come off your tan Carhartts either. Trust me. We don't get the rain that the PNW gets, but we get plenty of heavy wet snow and freeze/thaw cycles through the course of our frames. This stuff stays on the deck through everything.... snow shovels and all.
That's the stuff we use :-) Nothing better than getting hit in the head with a large chalk container in the summer and having it all stick to the sweat :-) Did that a few years ago with blue. I proved I'm the fastest on the site hehehehe
Water Proof Chalkline Compound...
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/B0007ZU2WY/ref=dp_nav_0/002-9853529-4539232?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi>
TNX for the tip. Had no idea amazon carried the stuff. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Red Oxide is the name for a red dye that is (or was) sold at masonry supply stores. I was taught to use it by an old carpenter in Hawaii back in the '70s. Lots of rain and sun over there, but the lines stayed put. It is (or was) sold by the pound. Handle it with care, it's hard to wash off. Good fun on a windy day. You'll be sorry if you pick your nose.
Red oxide -
Might that be similar to the red cement colorant I was told to use? Will look again, but all I see at HD is liquid stuff. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Red oxide -Might that be similar to the red cement colorant I was told to use? Will look again, but all I see at HD is liquid stuff. The red oxide that I used to buy was a dark red (like blood) powder, sold by the pound. It's been awhile since I bought some. If possible, find a store that specializes in masonry supplies and/or concrete products, because HD may be too generic. Try the phone book and some calls. Good luck.
CEMENT COLORING - POWDER FORM
Rwolson checked with his supplier - not the Depot - and reports
I thought about your request some more and called up a local concrete supply company (not HD) this morning. They carry the powdered coloring and refer to it as concrete color dye. It is sold in 25 pound bags for $39, although they will sell smaller quantities from broken bags. They carry three shades of red. Hope the info helps you out.
@@@
Suspect the active ingredient is red oxide, a very common coloring agent, otherwise known as "rust".The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I also vote for red and blackline chalk. Also there replacement lines last a long time.
Used to be, you could buy carbon black at the lumber yards. Could the black chalk I'm hearing referenced be the same? I'f so, really permanent stuff!
Fluorescent green and orange are damn near impossible to get off.
Black chalk -
The way it handled suggested that it might be carbon black. A little voice said, "Bet it's carbon black. Bet it don't come off." I recall it didn't come off my hands that fast.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.