A lady asked me if she could have a washer/dryer where the stove had been without running new wire, trying not to mess up the drywall. She would then locate the 50 amp. outlet across the room.
I couldn’t see any issues if i replace the breaker with a 30 amp one and change the outlet (unless the wire won’t fit in the 30 amp lugs…?), but i thought i better check with the experts.
Anyone know why this would not work or shouldn’t be done?
Replies
Do it. Nothing wrong with it.
roger
OK! Hope the wire size fits the outlet...
Those outlet connections are pretty big. I have on accassion where some idiot had run a huge muther of a wire where I couldn't put it in the connector, I unwrapped,and cut, one or two of the strands so it would fit. I know, i know, not code but a person has to do what a person has to do.
roger
I'm hoping it doesn't come to that, but you may have given me an argument against it. I'd like to end up talking her out of this as she's buggering up the floor plan, but alas, i don't own the place anymore, just stepped in to save her from some unscrupulous sorts who've taken advantage previously.
You can pigtail a smaller guage wire to the "yet to know" big wire and then wire it correctly into the plug. That is code.
There is fine line between people who knowingly rip people off and people who don't know how to do something and talk the customer out of something because of that lack of knowledge which is a disservice to the customer.
roger
Interesting observation, Roger. I'm not of the opinion that everything a customer wants me to do is something i'm willing to do; i don't need the money badly enough to produce ####. Since i did the original wiring, including the mast and panel, and passed that inspection with no caveats, i don't think my issue is insoluble ignorance. I'm more concerned that she wants to put a full laundry where a 20" stove sat, then shoe-horn the stove between a window and an electrical panel 18' away from the rest of the appliances. If strongly dissuading a customer from folly is disservice, i'll take the rap.
I believe you are confusing #### work with ignorance. We are here to learn from each other.
Whether you do the work for the woman or not is your choice,tell her that. Don't try to make out it can't be done.
roger
code says that the breaker should reflect the ampicity of the smallest wire in the circuit... so if you are going down from #6 to #10 you should also change the disconnect in the service panel.
james
I was also wondering if the 30 amp breaker would take the 'stove' wire. I won't be able to tell until i find out what gauge wire i used earlier.
We were talking wire size only, She already mentioned that she was putting in a lower rated breaker. Many times in junction boxes smaller guage wires are connected to larger guage and you are right that the overload protection should reflect the smallest guage.
roger
At one point, it was not uncommon to run SEC for such appliances. Hence the huge, no ground, wires.
splintie,
Older ranges and dryers used 3 wire systems, new ones require 4. If you have that part covered the rest is fine to do .
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I put the 50 amp circuit in in 1994, so i believe it's four-wire, but i wouldn't bet on it until i poke around again. (I'm working for the woman who bought the first house i remodeled.) The dryer hasn't been bought yet. I understand that for three-wire, you bond frame and neutral together, correct?
" Older ranges and dryers used 3 wire systems, new ones require 4. If you have that part covered the rest is fine to do ."No.Dryers and stoves come without any connections. They just have a terminal strip on them.You need to by a 3 or 4 cord set and connect it to the appliance. On the applicane there will be a jumper or bonding strap that needs to be connected for 3 wire or removed for 4 wires.This ain't new.My clothes dryer, which I bought USED in 79, is setup that way..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In my area, four wires to these outlets are required now, but i don't recall if that was so when i wired this cottage. I'll find out tomorrow when i lay a new floor in there...
Bill,
You are correct in what you state. The appliance itself comes ready to wire up either way . However up until the code changed most dryers and ranges were supplied to homeowners with 3 wire pigtails, not 4 wire pigtails, and most houses (here at least ) were wired up with 3 wire outlets . I was referring to code, and as far as I am concerned the code of 96 is new."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
"You need to by a 3 or 4 cord set and connect it to the appliance. On the applicane there will be a jumper or bonding strap that needs to be connected for 3 wire or removed for 4 wires."
I know we're talking dryers here ...
but that logic could blow up a very expensive panel in a very expensive double oven.
I've had more than one kitchen designer fight with me on this ... and after confering with my electrician ... I stand 100% behind the FACT that 4 wire appliances need 4 wires from the panel.
not a jumper.
high end ... modern day "brains" ... are easy to fry.
and they're expensive to replace.
so the first step here would be the appliance installation manual.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
You're confusing the issue here by mixing apples and oranges.
A double oven doesn't fall into the same category as plug-in free-standing appliances. Typically free-standing ovens and dryers come with the option of 3 or 4-wire connection. Typically a double oven comes with a pigtail that is hard-wired into the system and if it has 4 wires, well then you're correct it certainly needs a 3-wire plus ground circuit.
Bill isn't saying anything different.
Ed
"On the applicane there will be a jumper or bonding strap that needs to be connected for 3 wire or removed for 4 wires."So you are telling me that an appliacne that is supposed to be ONLY installed as a 4 wire install with COME WITH A JUMPER OR BRONDING STRAP to allow it to be installed with a 3 wire installation?"I've had more than one kitchen designer fight with me on this ... and after confering with my electrician ... I stand 100% behind the FACT that 4 wire appliances need 4 wires from the panel.not a jumper."The question is how is it "identified" as a 4 wire appliance. While it might be possible that someone has made one they aren't common. I would like to see the installation instructions on one.And what are the purpose of the 3rd and 4th wires? What in the appliacne connects to each one?And what is the mechanism that will cause an "could blow up a very expensive panel in a very expensive double oven"?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I just got a new dryer and it is three prong/wire. I'm not sure why but it is.
I'll take a guess at this. In fact 2 guesses. Years ago they (whoever they are) used to make 120volt dyers. I didn't see them too often. Maybe they are coming back.
The other guess would be that maybe all the circuits within the dryer are 220volt so a neutral wire isn't needed so all you have is 2 hot and a ground.
If my memory serves me, we used to run 2 hots and a ground to some ductless a/c units where everything, even the little fan motor, was 220volt.
As I said, pure guesses.
roger
Years ago they (whoever they are) used to make 120volt dyers.
I had one about 15-20 years ago that could be wired either way. I used it in an apartment once set on 120V. Pretty slow drying, but beat going to the laundromat. I had some kind of rig so the washer hooked to and drained to the kitchen sink and faucet.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
I'm not sure either. We bought the cheapest front loading stackable units they had. They are great. The controls are all electronic. They are very quiet. The washer tumbles the clothes one way, slows to a stop, slowstarts going the other direction. DC motor? I don't know but with the slow start and stop it should last. Sure beats the old washer and uses a lot less water to boot.
Our old washer had a knock after about a month when it was agitating the clothes. Not a problem but the impact at every direction change was disconcerning.
Years ago I used to be the Maytag man plus do warranty work on many other makes. The European washers for years went back and forth and if I remember correctly took way more than an hour to do a load. My older Maytag takes 10 minutes to do a load. Gee....................I wonder why the white clothes in Europe look sooooooooooo much whiter than in North America.
I think it was White/Westinghouse did a study on their washers and dishwashers and found that it is mainly the soap that did the cleaning and our products were based on speed. Can't have both.
roger
EXISTING 3 wire dryer or stove installations are legal to be used with new appliacnes.
However, if you move or change the function then you need to have a 4 wire connection.
So unless it is now a 4 wire stove circuit you can't repurpose it to a dyer. Otherwise you should be fine.
Edit, the NEC changed to require 4 wire for all installation in 96. Installation through sub-panels (mobile homes and apartments and other) required it earlier. And many places required it much earlier.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 8/29/2007 11:19 pm by BillHartmann
I'll know more tomorrow. I've been waiting for her renter to leave to get in there.
I had an interesting experience with my son and his electric dryer.
I was at his house several weeks ago and did a load of laundry for him
I gave him a dryer on about June 1st.
He then ran the dryer for about two months.
I washed a load of clothes and put them in the dryer.
I pulled out the lint screen and it was full of lint. Layer after layer after layer of lint.
I have never seen so much lint. This was so bad it was a fire hazard.
I said "do you know how to clean the lint filter? and he said "no".
Lucky he didn't burn the damn house down !
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
My wife knows how to do it but doesn't. It says right on the filter to clean it EVERY time.
There was someone here who warned about washing out the lint filter if you use anti-staic sheets, which i do. I washed three years' worth of dryer sheet residue out of my filter (with plain water) and stuff dries a lot faster now.
I looked at the stove outlet today. The wire is #6 ga., plus it's a three-prong outlet (installed 1994). I told the client the issues with code including snipping wires and changing use, at which point she decided it's more hassle and illegality than it's worth. I laid engineered fake walnut flooring today for 8 hours - maiden voyage, but i've learned to hate the stuff! - and got the appliances back inside from the driveway. Trim tomorrow, something i already know! Thanks to all my 'big brothers' for the help last night.