Probably showing my ignorance here, but is there a Table that shows the bevel angles of cheek cuts (regular hip roof) for your different roof pitches?
for an 8:12 Roof I’m coming up with bevels of
47.9º for the hip,
and 50º for the jacks ..
es correctomundo?
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Replies
Are you cutting these with a hand saw? If not you should be setting the bevel on your saw at 45 and cut the appropriate angle 8/12 for the jacks and 8/17 for the hips.
I'll second woodroe's comments. If you look at the hip from a plan view, the jacks and hips all meet at 45 degrees on a regular hip. Since your cheek cuts are made in the vertical plane, setting your circular saw at 45 degrees will produce the correct angle. Only if you're marking your material on the top edge, and cutting with a handsaw, do you need to concern yourself with any other angles.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Joe,
You must be using big timbers that are exposed or something where you don't have a saw big enough and you have to use a handsaw for nice cuts. Right or wrong?
No Joe, I've always set my tilt to 45º as I make the plumb cut (not that I've built That many hip roofs) and they always seem to fit fine, but I just drew this hip roof in SketchUp, and when I measure the cheek angles, that's what I'm getting those two angles I posted ..feeling confused now .. glad it's Friday!
if you go by the book then you are correct but most people apparently don't and just cut it at 45. You would be better off cutting those exact angles if it were a gazebo or something exposed. Btw the table is on the steel square as to what angle to cut those bevels at
Edited 3/3/2006 10:38 pm ET by huddledmass
How do you figure? On a regular hip with a vertical cheek cut, 45 degrees can be the only accurate angle. Because the hip sits at 45 degrees in plan view. What is this "book" that defies the laws of geometry?"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
it's on the steel square that you use when laying out your side cuts. Also in the book Carpentry by Koel and the book "the steel square" by h.h. siegele. Time for you to bone up. Your quote applies to yourself this time around!
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited 3/3/2006 11:54 pm ET by huddledmass
Using a steel square to mark the top of the rafters, your square will not be level, it will be in plane with the top of the rafter, hence the need for an adjusted angle. When you make a cheek cut with a circular saw, the angle setting of the blade is in reference to vertical. From that perspective, the only accurate angle can be 45 degrees, for a regular hip. Anything other than 45 degrees would only work on an irregular, or bastard hip.
Which is why you don't use a framing square to lay out cheek cuts on the top edge of a jack rafter if you're using a circular saw to make the cuts. You only do that if you're cutting with a handsaw, and need a reference point. Hence, anything other than 45 degrees could not be correct for a circular saw setting, on a regular hip. I seriously doubt that any amount of "boning up" could change the laws of physics, or geometry. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
the angle of the side cut changes as the elevation changes whether you are using a hand saw or a circular saw. In those books, one was published in at least 2004, one in 1950, they make no addendums or allowances for circular saw settings. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are cutting a 4 dimensional thing. Also the dudes sketchup program is saying the same damn thing so explain that! Should i go on a computer and two books advice and the steel square or some guy in a chat rooms advice?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hey, I just try to share what I know. I'm not always right. I appreciate people who care enough to question things, to challenge assumptions. I don't have anything more to add, because I'd just be going over the same explanation. Maybe someone else can add some clarity that might help either of us to see it differently."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Believe the guys on the web.
When you cut a cheek cut with a saw set at 45degrees, it will create that angle of the sidecuts that is showing in the tables.
Both are right.
blue
"for an 8:12 Roof I'm coming up with bevels of
47.9º for the hip,
and 50º for the jacks .."
Joe: Just or the hell of it I ran your numbes through my calculators. The closest figures I came up with are:
Hip Rafter Side Cut Angle = 42.13041°
The complement is 90° – 42.13041° = 47.86959°
Sheathing or Plywood Angle = 50.23784°; this is complementary to the Jack Rafter Side Cut Angle.
It looks like your drawing progam is giving you the complements of the side cut angles. Everyone is correct in saying that 45° is the blade bevel setting (or cheek cut angle) along all plumb lines, jacks and the hip, regardless of the value of the pitches as long as they are equal. Maybe the figures above will help you troubleshoot why you are getting the wrong answers.Joe Bartok
Here’s the structure.
Yep, maybe I’m using the wrong words. I usually use T&A, or Tilt, and Angle, so the plumb cut would be the Angle, and cheek cut would be the (blade) Tilt, either way, I’m still confused since I’ve always used a 45 deg Tilt when cutting hips and jacks, and they’ve always seemed to fit.
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here’s a shot of the hip group.
View Image
You can see how nicely everything planes in.
View Image
SketchUp is so accurate , and I draw everything in 1:1 scale. What I do is get my various measurements and angles out of my framing books, layout each rafter, cut it, then rotate it up into place. But when I assemble everything together I’ve been noticing how they really don’t fit. So, while all the rafters are in place, I re-draw the T&As to make everything fit tight, and then when I actually measure the angles I come up with the 50.2 (jacks) and 47.9(hip).
This shows the T&A I'm using to make these jacks fit ..
Thes next two show the same scene, this one is without perspective on ..
View Image
and this one is in perspective ..
It still seems to me that a 45º tilt on your saw won't work, even though I've done that in the field and everything seems to fit fine.
I’ll post the SketchUp file so anyone with Sup can see what I’m talking about, and hopefully de-confuse me!
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If you don’t have Sup you can go download the Viewer and at least take a look at this even though you won’t be able to measure anything.
http://www.sketchup.com/?sid=40
anyway, after we sort this out, I'm still interested in finding a chart that'll give me the Tilt angle for the different cheek cuts ..
Edited 3/4/2006 2:09 pm by JoeWood
Edited 3/4/2006 2:10 pm by JoeWood
Edited 3/4/2006 2:11 pm by JoeWood
Edited 3/4/2006 2:12 pm by JoeWood ...[Message truncated]
Edited 3/4/2006 2:15 pm by JoeWood
Here's the .skp file.
would be nice to get this straightend out ..
Joe: I just did a "speed read" of your images. The 50.23784° shown on the drawing is the Sheathing or Plywood Angle. The angle on the jack is the complement of this, the 39.76216° Jack Rafter Side Cut Angle, which is supposed to fit when the jack is rotated to its plumb position at 33.69007°. Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but this is what is supposed to happen.
Cutting along the plumb line of the jack rafter with the saw blade set at 45° would produce the angle shown on your drawings.
Joe Bartok
Edited 3/4/2006 3:02 pm ET by JoeBartok
Here's a shot of the rafters all cut with a 45º tilt to the blade, and all rafters rotated up into position. See how they're fitting? No bueno, and I don't understand it since out in the field, it always fits tight!
View Image
Hey Joe, so, the Tilt of the saw isn't 45º when making our cheek cuts?
Edited 3/4/2006 3:04 pm by JoeWood
Joe: I can't make heads or tails of the last image you posted but the first group made sense. That cheek cut or blade bevel along the plumb line must be 45 degrees.Joe Bartok
I always check my angles by calculation. Try substituting your values in these Saw Blade Bevel Formulas. They will produce a cheek cut of 45°.Joe Bartok
Joe, that last image is where I 'cut' my rafters at 45º along the plumb cuts, then rotated them up into position. The Plan View is set without perspective so you're looking right down from the top.I hear what you're saying about the bevel 'must' be 45º, but it's not working out in my drawing, it's way off matter of fact.Think I'll take a break and come back to this later ..
Joe,You are laying your jack plumbcut 8/12 like my drawing right? You also have cut all your jacks with the saw set at 45° with a hip running at 45° and they have worked? If you've done a job where it didn't work then soemthing must be out of square somewhere.Joe Carola
yep, that's how I've always done it Joe. I don't know .. I'm confused over this. I've asked over at the SUp forum, maybe I'll find out something there. Seems logical that the bevels Have to be 45 if they're at a 45 to the hip ..I hope one of you can open that Sup file I posted and look it over.
Joe,I have it open. What about it?Joe Carola
Well, you see how nice the jacks fit the hip, and how the hip fits the commons, but, none of those bevels are at 45. That's my question, why aren't those at 45 in my model?
Seems logical that the bevels Have to be 45 if they're at a 45 to the hip
There you said a mouthful. Really, this is the crux of the matter, an immutable law of geometry. By definition, a regular hip sits at 45 degrees to the ridge and the commons (in plan view). Hence, the vertical cheek cut on the jack rafters must be at 45 degrees, to plane in. If a computer program told me any different, I wouldn't believe it for a second. I know this is not the answer you want to hear, but I think eventually you will come see the obvious truth in it. Take it to a trig. professor, and he will tell you the same thing. Regardless of the pitch of the roof, on a regular hip roof, the vertical cheek cuts on the jack rafters will always be at 45 degrees. Always. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
OK, here they are with 45s cut for the bevels, then put in place.They sure don't fit!I know I'm drawing this all correctly ..Huck, get that Viewer if you don't have SUp and take a look at this, let me know what you think.
I got a cheek cut when I sat on my utility knife. Had to be at least 45 degrees.
That's pretty funny
Oh, and Joe, all the plumb cuts are fitting pefectly in my model.
"Here's a shot of the rafters all cut with a 45º tilt to the blade, and all rafters rotated up into position. See how they're fitting? No bueno, and I don't understand it since out in the field, it always fits tight!"Joe,Than something is wrong with Sketchup because it's not showing it right. You proved it yourself in the field that cutting the cheekcuts with the saw tilted at 45° no matter what the pitch is works. Your Sketchup doesn't work and is m=not showing you the right angle in plan view.If you scribe your jack rafter plumbcut with 8/12 on the framing square or use a speedsquare and set the saw at 45° and cut that jack plumbcut it will fit perfect.Throw the program out the window because it’s doing nothing but confusing you over something you've already accomplished in the field."Hey Joe, so, the Tilt of the saw isn't 45º when making our cheek cuts?"Again Joe, you’re wrong. Stop getting confused with this Sketchup program. I don't think it's raising the roof to where it’s supposed to be in your drawings.If you put your square or speedsquare on the top of the jack plumbcut after it has been cut with the saw set at 45° it will not read 45°.Why are you drawing it anyway in sketchup and confusing yourself when you know what you have done works and everyone keeps telling that you HAVE to set your saw 45° for any pitch?Joe Carola
I think the first group of drawings did show the angles right. The jack rafter with the side cut shown fits when the rafter is rotated into postion.
We don't need to do any calculating for these angles. The blade bevel to cut a jack rafter along the plumb line is always the plan angle at the Hip rafter foot. It doesn't matter if we have two different pitches at an irregular plan angle; the geometry is still the same.
We know all our plan angles in this case are 45°, so that's the blade bevel.
It seems like Sketchup is showing the rafters rotated into position correctly when seen in one perspective or view, but not when showing the plan view.
Joe Bartok
Edited 3/4/2006 3:32 pm ET by JoeBartok
"I think the first group of drawings did show the angles right. The jack rafter with the side cut shown fits when the rafter is rotated into postion.We don't need to do any calculating for these angles. The blade bevel to cut a jack rafter along the plumb line is always the plan angle at the Hip rafter foot. It doesn't matter if we have two different pitches at an irregular plan angle; the geometry is still the same.We know all our plan angles in this case are 45°, so that's the blade bevel.It seems like Sketchup is showing the rafters rotated into position correctly when seen in one perspective or view, but not when showing the plan view."Joe,Is this post meant for Joe Wood?Joe Carola
Sorry Framer Joe. Yeah, it was meant for Joe Wood. I forgot to look in the "to" box when I posted.Joe Bartok
Bigger nails will pull them tight!
blue
This is what happens when you build houses with computers instead of nails and wood. The correct bevel setting on the saw for any regular hip jack is, was, and always shall be 45 degrees. I think the problem is either an issue of nomenclature (cheek cut vs side cut) or operator error with the computer program.
In the immortal words of Mike Smith....
But hey, whadda I know?View Image
is there a journeyman out there that can answer these questions?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
is there a journeyman out there that can answer these questions?
From:
dieselpig <!----><!---->
5:50 pm
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
(36 of 37)
70476.36 in reply to 70476.35
This is what happens when you build houses with computers instead of nails and wood. The correct bevel setting on the saw for any regular hip jack is, was, and always shall be 45 degrees. I think the problem is either an issue of nomenclature (cheek cut vs side cut) or operator error with the computer program.
In the immortal words of Mike Smith....
But hey, whadda I know?
View Image
From:
blueeyeddevil <!----><!---->
7:06 am
To:
huddledmass <!----><!---->
(14 of 37)
70476.14 in reply to 70476.10
Believe the guys on the web.
When you cut a cheek cut with a saw set at 45degrees, it will create that angle of the sidecuts that is showing in the tables.
Both are right.
blue
From:
JoeBartok <!----><!---->
12:05 pm
To:
JoeWood <!----><!---->
(20 of 37)
70476.20 in reply to 70476.19
Joe: I can't make heads or tails of the last image you posted but the first group made sense. That cheek cut or blade bevel along the plumb line must be 45 degrees.
Joe Bartok"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Allright, I figured it out. I was making the 45 after I had done the plumb cut, and somehow I've been messing it up. Operator error ..this time I actually rotated the rafter stock so it was laying on it's side, like I do in the field. Then I made a 'saw blade', rotated it to 45, and then rotated it to the plumb cut. Made my 'cut', stuck it up in place, and yep, it fit perfectly ..after it was up in place, I measured that cheek cut angle, and, it was 50.2 .... feeling pretty stupid right now. You can't measure it after it's been cut and put in place.Thanks for helping me figure this out!
In that picture the hip is too low on the common?
No Dooda, I usually drop the hip instead of beveling it. In this case it was 3/8".Sure am glad I figured out what I was doing wrong ..
It's been said in many post before...
The plan view and saw angle of a 45 deg hip is 45 deg at any pitch.
The "result" of the sidecut changes with pitch change.
Howie
what are your credentials?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I've been a General Contractor Since '92 and have been building since '85.
I got into a niche of framing large custom homes for other generals, up to 6500-7000 sq ft. high end homes. Stick frame to trusses, curved turret roofs, you name I've probably framed it.
We're doing high end finish work right now on two projects using vertical grain df wainscot, trim and casing. With four exposed 8x10 scissor trusses spanning 24' across a great room.
Our biggest problem with building here in Nor Cal is the huge amount of enginneering, holddowns,hardware and shear panels we have to deal with. We can't just frame walls anymore and in some cases has added 15,000.00- 20,000.00 in cost to a project. Sorry just venting on enginnering!
When you frame a hip roof there are alot of simple things that can happen during framing that can make you think a 45 deg angle wouldn't work, if it's a 45 deg hip.
The two walls that are 90 deg to each other could be as little as 1/4" out of square in 20'
You might miss layout on the top plates by only an 1/8"
Your common layout up the hip could have missed by just a 1/16th and then accumalted to the ridge.
One wall's top plate might have cupped in the sun more than another.
And if you put all these things together it could very easily make your plumb cuts not hit the hip correctly and make you think your angle isn't correct.I try and teach the guys I work with that 1/16" or 1/8" out of plumb, square or level does matter!
You also need to get to a point to where you can tell where something might be out a little and how to adjust and make it work for that situation. Where it matters if something needs to be dead on and where you can make a situation work because it doesn't affect the end result.
Hope that helps you with my back ground!
Back to the angle of hip rafters, in a perfect world, a 45 deg hip has 45 deg plumb cut rafters no matter the pitch.
Howie
And How!
I have done what you are doing now, minus the shear and hold-down requirements, and I loved it, my timeline is roughly 10 years older than yours, started business in '81.
I miss working on the large nice homes.
I stayed out of this discussion as I knew the obviousness of the answer would surface without me.
Welcome , Howie, pull up a chair.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
Thanks Heck,
I enjoy reading everyones comments.
I didn't take the gentlemans question in a harsh way.
He was ask'n!
So I was tell'n!
Howie
it was not asked in a harsh way just in a inquisitive way and you must be a very mature person to have answered it the way that you did and i must say that i was surprised and impressed at how you carried yourself. Very disarming and most unusual but also refreshing. Like tonic water! Where ya from?
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm in Northern California a town called Grass Valley about 1hr West of Lake Tahoe in the foothills and about 30 miles north of Sacramento.
Yes I didn't take your comments harsh I think that you just weren't picturing what everyone was trying to say when you cut a 45 deg plumb cut and the different angles that occur on the side cut depending on the pitch.
Howie
yeah that's pretty much what was going on. We live and learn. I've never been to California but I've been to Minot. "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Dude, you don't need to qualify with anyone. But you certainly do. Don't mind him... he's just ticked cuz he got the answer wrong. ;)
If I haven't said it already, welcome to the forum.View Image
but hey, what do you know?"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Right. What do I know? You're a fiesty one aren't ya?View Image
you drew first blood:)"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I don't know if he was ticked...
I was just saying no matter how perfect you try and make things, it doesn't always work out that way.
When your dealing with framing that is!
Howie
From:
huddledmass <!----><!---->
Mar-3 10:32 pm
To:
JoeWood <!----><!---->
(6 of 53)
70476.6 in reply to 70476.5
if you go by the book then you are correct but most people apparently don't and just cut it at 45. You would be better off cutting those exact angles if it were a gazebo or something exposed. Btw the table is on the steel square as to what angle to cut those bevels at
From:
huddledmass <!----><!---->
Mar-3 11:50 pm
To:
Huck <!----><!---->
(8 of 53)
70476.8 in reply to 70476.7
it's on the steel square that you use when laying out your side cuts. Also in the book Carpentry by Koel and the book "the steel square" by h.h. siegele. Time for you to bone up. Your quote applies to yourself this time around!
From:
huddledmass <!----><!---->
Mar-4 12:32 am
To:
Huck <!----><!---->
(10 of 53)
70476.10 in reply to 70476.9
the angle of the side cut changes as the elevation changes whether you are using a hand saw or a circular saw. In those books, one was published in at least 2004, one in 1950, they make no addendums or allowances for circular saw settings. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are cutting a 4 dimensional thing. Also the dudes sketchup program is saying the same damn thing so explain that! Should i go on a computer and two books advice and the steel square or some guy in a chat rooms advice?
From:
huddledmass <!----><!---->
Mar-6 10:48 pm
To:
dieselpig <!----><!---->
(48 of 53)
70476.48 in reply to 70476.47
but hey, what do you know?
What's your point with all these posts that you've made proving that you're clearly wrong and don't know what your talking about. Yet you keep coming back with these ridiculous posts and questioning someone's credentials when you don't even have any credentials yourself, obviously.
Why can't you admit that your wrong and be done with it? It sounds like to me that you realy don't even know your wrong because you've never even cut a roof before and you've just read books and misinterpreted one book thinking that the cheek cut with a hip running at 45° does change with the pitch when it doesn't because you've said so yourself.
Joe Carola
Edited 3/7/2006 11:33 am ET by FramerJoey
You are proving your ignorance by assuming you know what I've done in my career so if you are wrong about that, and you most certainly are, where does your ignorance end and your wisdom begin ...certainly not with framing a roof. What is the purpose of the table on the steel square "side cut of jacks use etc etc". Previous posters have said that you only have to use the table when you are cutting the rafter with a hand saw...why? because the angle/bevel is greater than what most circular saws can tilt to...thus proving that when you cut the wood the angle is not 45...to cut it at 45 is the hillbilly way of doing it...and those are the words of a journeyman...and if you were qualified you would know that too."I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Guy, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you are dead wrong on this one. You're interpreting the tables wrong. Go outside and scribe a 6 pitch on a stick of 2X and cut it with a circular saw set at 45 degrees. Now go scribe a 12 pitch on the other end of the stick and again make that cut with the saw set at 45 degrees. Now read the angles with a protractor or a speed square. Those angles will be different from each other and they will match the tables on your square, even though your saw was set for 45 degrees for both cuts.
Although I'm beginning to doubt you even own a circular saw or a framing square.View Image
i'm going to the garage right now"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Guy, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you are dead wrong on this one. You're interpreting the tables wrong. Go outside and scribe a 6 pitch on a stick of 2X and cut it with a circular saw set at 45 degrees. Now go scribe a 12 pitch on the other end of the stick and again make that cut with the saw set at 45 degrees. Now read the angles with a protractor or a speed square. Those angles will be different from each other and they will match the tables on your square, even though your saw was set for 45 degrees for both cuts.
You sure have a funny way of 'not' picking a fight. With my "framing" square i "scribed" a 6 in 12 and a 12 in 12 beside each other. I then looked on the table where it says "side cut of jacks" and used 10 3/4 on the tongue and 12 on the blade and "scribed" a line. For the 12 in 12 pitch i used , by referencing under 12 on the same table, 8 7/8 on the tongue and 12 on the blade and "scribed my line". I then took my sliding bevel and compared the two lines and no big surprise...they did not match...in fact they weren't even close. Then i went to the garage and set my saw to 45 degrees and cut a 1/4 inch into each set of lines and then i was able to see that you were right. :)
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I don't want to be "right" dude. I just wanted you to stop telling everyone else that they're wrong. You were pretty adamant and arrogant about your position.
You sure have a funny way of 'not' picking a fight. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I really wasn't trying to start sh2t with you. I was just trying to get the point across to you because you weren't hearing it from the other 12 guys who explained it nicely.
I'm glad we've all agreed on this though.View Image
you're a good guy and i'm glad i listened to you. I'm one of those people that can only learn by doing because i don't believe s--- that anyone says. Thanks for taking the time.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited 3/7/2006 8:21 pm ET by huddledmass
We cool.View Image
Ahh, the old side cut chart!
If you can use simpe math to figure out how to generate those side cut numbers, you'll be two steps ahead of most framers.
In this day and age of adjustable tables on power saws, those side cut charts are rather useless. But, there's actually some value in them, if you take the time to discover some of the other uses. Dont' try to pry them out of me though because I haven't consulted that chart since the early 80's.
blue
to cut it at 45 is the hillbilly way of doing it
Then I guess I'm a hillbilly. Think I'll go set out on my rocker and enjoy a cup o' moonshine!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
"You are proving your ignorance by assuming you know what I've done in my career so if you are wrong about that, and you most certainly are, where does your ignorance end and your wisdom begin ...certainly not with framing a roof. What is the purpose of the table on the steel square "side cut of jacks use etc etc". Previous posters have said that you only have to use the table when you are cutting the rafter with a hand saw...why? because the angle/bevel is greater than what most circular saws can tilt to...thus proving that when you cut the wood the angle is not 45...to cut it at 45 is the hillbilly way of doing it...and those are the words of a journeyman...and if you were qualified you would know that too."This post is a joke, right?This was my first post to you.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70476.12After you read my first post to you will you post back to me and tell me if your really serious or are you just busting balls. If you are serious than maybe when you cut your first hip you will realize how wrong you are and what a fool your making of yourself. Also it proves even more that you have never cut a 45° or any hip roof before.If I'm so ignorant then how come every 45° hip roof I cut before that I set the saw at 45° for the jacks they fit perfcet and also evry bastard hip or Octagon hip that I set my saw to the plan view angle they fit perfect NO MATTER WHAT THE PITCH IS?Joe Carola
keep up the good work."I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
cheek cut info
My name is daniel mcdermott 907-310-8930 I have cut a lot of roofs in the last 15 years and I am here to say that a cheek cut IS A 45 DEGREE ANGLE NO MATTER WHAT. IF YOU FIND SOMETHING OTHER THAN A 45 THEN YOUR RIDGE IS NOT LEVEL OR YOUR COMMONS ARE IN THE WRONG SPOT!
cheek cut info
My name is daniel mcdermott 907-310-8930 I have cut a lot of roofs in the last 15 years and I am here to say that a cheek cut IS A 45 DEGREE ANGLE NO MATTER WHAT. IF YOU FIND SOMETHING OTHER THAN A 45 THEN YOUR RIDGE IS NOT LEVEL OR YOUR COMMONS ARE IN THE WRONG SPOT!
"if you go by the book then you are correct but most people apparently don't and just cut it at 45. You would be better off cutting those exact angles if it were a gazebo or something exposed. Btw the table is on the steel square as to what angle to cut those bevels at"If you have a hip that's running at 45° no matter what pitch it is, the saw setting is 45° and it will fit perfect even if it was trim work. If the hip on a bastard hip pitch for example an 8/12 - 10/12 combination the hip in plan view runs at 51.34° on the 8/12, so 51.34° would be the saw setting to cut the jack rafters on that side and the hip runs at 38.66° on the 10/12 side, so the saw setting is 38.66° for the jack rafters for that side.Whatever the hip is running in plan view (FLAT) that's what your saw settings for the jacks will be NO MATTER what the pitch is. Those sidecut marks are a reult of what the angle of each pitch would be AFTER the 45° cut is made becasue it's a compound angleSame thing for and Octagon Roof. The hip in an Octagon runs at 67.5° so your saw setting is at 67.5° no matter what the pitch is.If you frame a deck like a hip roof all your cuts are cut square and your saw setting will be set at 45° on the jacks and the hips cheek cuts, so once that cut is made you can put your framing square or speedsquare on the top of those cuts and they will always read 45° because those beams are lying FLAT just like the plan view. Same thing with an Octagon shaped deck all those cuts on top will measure 67.5°.Now with rafters you have a pitch and a plumbcut that has an angle on it that's not 90° or square cut like my example above. So with a hip running at 45° and your saw setting always at 45° once you make that cut through your plumbcut angle mark your cutting a compound angle and the result angle at the top is what the framing square side cuts tells you for each pitch. That's why there all different for each pitch. If you put the speedsquare on top it will give you the angle in degrees.You said, "the angle of the side cut changes as the elevation changes whether you are using a hand saw or a circular saw. In those books, one was published in at least 2004, one in 1950, they make no addendums or allowances for circular saw settings."Of course there not going to do that because the circular saw setting doesn't change. What are you talking about?Are you trying to say that a hip running at 45° and you set your saw at 45° for the jack rafters no matter what the pitch is, that's wrong?
Even on an Octagon Roof, no matter what the pitch is, if you set your saw at 45° and cut the jacks, that's wrong? It sounds like to me that you think the saw setting should be what the framing square sidecuts tell you.I've frame many Octagons before and always set my saw at 67.5° and every cut fits perfect. I even trimmed a house with an exposed hip roof and had a boxed out coffered ceiling where we boxed all the hips out and boxed jack rafters and all those cuts were done the same as I framed them with the miter saw set at 45° and the saw tilted to whatever the pitch was and they fit perfect.Every hip roof that you frame, a hip running at 45°, bastard hips or an Octagon roof. What degrees do you set your saw at for the jack rafters for each? On the Bastard Hip one give me the plan view angle and saw setting for a 6/12 and 10/12 combination. You also said to Huck, "it's on the steel square that you use when laying out your side cuts. Also in the book Carpentry by Koel and the book "the steel square" by h.h. siegele. Time for you to bone up. Your quote applies to yourself this time around!" Your only write about every book and square telling you the same thing. They’re telling you what the RESULT is after you make your cut with the saw set at 45°. Before we had circular saws they used hand saws so there was no such saw to cut at 45°. So back then the square was set to the sidecut marks on the top and bottom of the jack and the a plumbcut line was drawn connecting those marks front and back of the jack. Then the handsaw followed. The sidecuts on the square was the result of the finished cut for each different pitch. So back then if they had a circular saw they could find out very quick that with a hip running at 45° once they set the saw up at 45° the saw would fit PERFECT with the finished cut that they laid out with the rafter sidecuts.I hate to say this but after 22 years of framing 45° hips, bastard hips, Octagon hips and framing tray ceilings and now trimming them, these saw settings have always worked out perfect.So what is it in your mind that you think that I'm doing wrong and Huck along with most of the people you said are doing wrong? Unless I totally missed what you were saying in your psots to Huck. Then all I said above means nothing.Joe Carola
Edited 3/4/2006 7:08 am ET by Framer
Joe, I think you are confusing the terms. I think the table show the sidecuts. You would use those sidecut layout angles if you were going to make all the cuts with a handsaw.
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