The latest FH has an ad for Microsoft’s “Chief Architect” software, and an offer for a trial version.
Has anyone used either the $$$ or the trial versions? What are your thoughts?
What competing products are out there? Are any of them of use to a tradesman, for, say, job documentation?
Replies
bump
http://grantlogan.net/
Microsoft CA? If it's Chief (which isn't a Microsoft product AFAIK), I use it frequently and love it. Somewhat steep learning curve but no worse than other CAD programs I've tried. Does great plans, framing details and 3D renderings.
Mike Smith is a real CA guru...
PaulB
steep learning curve
That sure is the truth. I tried the trial version, OP should also.
Think I'm fairly computer literate, but if one is not going to use it every week (or day), may not be worth the frustration to start.
Have seen worse learning curves on some programs though, as in years of everyday use to become really proficient.
I got it back in version seven probably 6 or 7 years ago. Used it for a while, bought the hyped up computer to run it and a 24" roll feed printer drew a few projects and ended up going back to pencil. Main problem I had was file corruption after I got multiple versions into the re-draws. I didn't care for it much.
But that was a while back, they must have improved it since then.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
If you plan on doing any level of drawing, I find CA to be a great product. I bought version 9 five years ago. I had a kitchen designed with maple frames and mahogany flat panels printed in color to present to a client in three days. It paid for itself on the first project.
The materials lists are pretty accurate assuming you input your parts and pieces correctly. It also has a frame building feature where you can manipulate the frame and specify locations of any framing member.
I find it to be an incredibly powerful tool and has sold more jobs than I could have gotten by paper and pencil. There is a small learning curve to do simple wall placement, windows, doors, and cabinets. Roof construction can be slightly more tricky.
If you are doing a good amount of design work, it is worth the investment. If you do buy it, plan on attending the training class as soon as possible. It will save you countless hours of effort. There are several guys who will do training online with you as well.
Bruce
Chief Architect is an amazing tool. I've been using it fairly regularly for about a year now and it easily paid for itself on the first set of working drawings I produced. I've always wanted to build my own designs but never had the patience to do actual hand drawings. I'm drawing stuff all the time now and it gets easier and easier to illustrate my ideas the more familiar I get with the program. Chief is pretty damn impressive.
You will also find the Better Homes and Gardens Home Designer avalable for about $60 is a simplified version of the same ART program. It won't do many things CA will do but basically works the same.
$60? Quite a bit less than the $2800 they want for Chief Architect! It's something to consider .... By contrast, I have a 'free' program that is so confusing to use that I have yet to get a decent layout completed.
Actually, I use BHG to scope a project and make 3D views of the interrior concept then I go to Autocad for construction drawings. Others here have other programs that get the job done all in one. But it is all a mater of program cost and learning curve to addiquate proficency and still be financially benificial.
In any event the BHG program is available from local stores like Best Buy or Staples and will give you a feel for computor design without a big cost or long learning curve.
Edited 2/5/2008 9:14 pm ET by jimcco
I have the BHG Home Designer and I absolutely love it. Its great for planning remodels and getting many ideas quickly of what will and wont work dimension wise. The more you use it the more you get out of it. I paid $100, well worth the money.
Matt
I bought the Home Designer Pro V7 and found it be pretty worthless for what I wanted to do, which was to design a non-standard ICF house with a green roof and to draw the various details. I ended up doing all the drawing in DesignCAD V17, which is pretty much a standard drawing program. The Home Designer Pro has a "dongle" which must be present for the program to run and which is about the size of your thumbnail and plugs into the USB port. I haven't lost it yet, but I am sure it is just a matter of time. I have purchased a lot of disappointing software, but this was about about the worst.
Casey,
For what you are looking to do i think you will need to spend more than the $100 BHG DP costs.
If it had only cost $100, I wouldn't be complaining. Unfortunately, the "Pro" designation adds about three bills,so I think I paid $422It looks like it is now $3 cheaper at only $419...
http://www.amazon.com/Better-Homes-Gardens-Home-Designer/dp/B000BI7V0I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1202443396&sr=8-1
Edited 2/7/2008 11:08 pm ET by CaseyR
I'm a new user with Chief. I'm also an old user of their windows 95 home architect program which actually worked pretty well for simple houses with simple designs.
Chief is capable of far more than I ever intend to be able to do...I've come to that conclusion after suffering through a lot of the learning curve that others have warned you about.
Bruce mentioned that you should buy the training tapes and I agree. I didn't buy them and I've suffered through many situations that might be a snap if I had a training program that I could refer back to. The problem with me is that I don't have the concentration to sit through the training tapes. I freak out when a lesson is 3 minutes long. I'd rather struggle for an hour than track down a video lesson. I really don't want to struggle but I always think that the solution is right around the corner and I'll get it in 30 seconds.
I'm curious about your need for "documentation"?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Will Chief do crossections of strucutres/models you've already designed with no or very litle extra work?
John
yes.
thanks
anything you designed will yield a cross section... cut anyplace you want
if the structure was "built" correctly, then the cross section will be very accurate
usually .. i myself will compromise.. take a section of the pretty picture ( that is correctly dimensioned )
turn it into a "cad detail" ( with one click )
then edit the cad detail to any level of detail i want or needMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, you taught me to create those cad details as described but either I can't remember or it's not working on my current plan. I finally succumbed and created a typical wall section from another plan. Can you refresh my memory. I know it worked the last time you told me. I think I'm doing the same thing and the tutorials and manuals won't work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quick question, how does the group feel about Professional Home Design Suite Platinum software? I did the upgrade to the latest and greatest and it seems to have a lot of bells and whistles but have not had time to play with it much.
Jim
jim... i've got version X1 loaded but i'm working in version 10
in version 10... go to the area you want to section
choose the vector view camera
choose the back clipped camera child button
drag the camera thru the section ( at right angles .... not oblique )
when you have the view you want, click on the "view 2 cad" button
you now have a cad detail view of the section you want to edit
the better the model, the better the detail
i guess X1 will work much the same way
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/7/2008 5:15 pm ET by MikeSmith
Yes.Interestingly, I cannot generate an automatic cross section on my last drawing. I think it's one of those glitches that occur after the files size grows too big or something..I was able to generate a cross section, then create a cad detail from them. It is truly a professional drawing program and anyone that is sincerely interested in providing professional drawing services for themselves or others would benefit from it. It is theoretically possible to draw an entire plan using only the CAD tools but I wouldn't suggest that. I would suggest everyone trying the trial program. There will be limitations but you will get enough of an idea to know whether it's what you want/need. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>It is theoretically possible to draw an entire plan using only the CAD tools but I wouldn't suggest that. <
And your recommendation would be to...
CAD as opposed to the wall tool, roof tool, cabinet tool...
ie: 2d cad vs. the object 3d tools
those are the two basic methods
autocad is a 2d cad program
Chief is a 3d object program with 2d cad toolsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I tried everything using the backclip and it just isn't working with my current plan. Somethings corrupted. Chief has a lot of bugs like that. I think there would be fewer for skilled users because they probably do a lot less back and forth and experimenting than me. Also, I'm still not quite sure about the filing systems. I'm getting better but my ADD is kicking my azz on this thing. I'm not a a good software guy. I need to have my osha unapproved saw in my hands to function well. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
jim.... have you downloaded the latest version of X1 ?
click on "help" go to " about"... it will tell you what version you have
go to Chief Architect's web site and download the latest "patch"
should be X1.4
http://www.chiefarchitect.com/pdf/Chief-X1.4-New-Feature-List.pdf
some of the bugs will disappear
i usually wait about 6 months or so before i switch over to the latest version..... that allows others to find the bugsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I loaded the 11.4 patch when I was trying to solve that problem and a couple other things. I'm not down on the software but I'm realistic. I think I might be operating slightly thin on my ram and maybe because my file sizes grow so big, I'm the problem more than the software is. I'll check later today to see if they have more in the patch than what I loaded. I loaded the patch before it was released to the public because I saw them talking about it on Chieftalk and I hoped it would solve my problem: it didn't. I'm sure a new plan will work fine though. I just haven't needed to start one. I'm sure my next one will go substantially smoother. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Any tricks to keeping the file sizes small?
My files grow crazy because I didn't fully understand what I was doing. I'd do a backclip section view like Mike uggested and work on something. The next day, I'd do a different section view. Sometimes I'd have ten differnt front elevation views to sort through. Usually only on or two is needed: I just have to keep opening the same one instead of creating a new one. I was "sending the plans to layout" which means I was getting ready to print them. I had a button that "create a new copy". If I sent ten items to layout, I'd create ten new copies...and each copy of the full plan included twenty or thirty needless section views and stuff. I "saves as" with differnt names because I thought I was preserving copies in case I screwed something up. I could go on and on about how I created the huge file sizes. Even on my latest drawing when I was trying to be more careful, I learned that I was doing more stupid stuff. It is a case of user ignorance. I accept a lot of the blame and a software savvy person will certainly avoid most of the stuff I did. I was even specifically told to go back and study the filing systems but it just doesn't register in my brain. I'm a trial and error kind of guy. It works....but a lot slower than if I'd just suck it up and do the tutorials...which I won't. I'd rather hand the program to an assistant and let them sort it all out.I have no doubt that if I was in an office working with another experienced Chief guy, I'd be whizzing along, very productively in a few days. All the minor gliches that caused me hours of trial and error and reading would be handled in a thirty second conversation just like Mike did when I asked how to get to the CAD detail from a back section drawing. I like the program. I'm not sure I'm the right guy to be working it though. I have the construction knowledge but my brain activity is more hands on that the software allows for. Drawing with CAD lines fis me better. Pencil would be best for me. One solution for me would be to make a hybrid: print out drawings, then take them to the board to tweak them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
jim..... about umpty-ump years ago i went to a class at Berryvale Software and Steve taught me about Windows Explorer
i bet you already know this... but just in case
if you RIGHT click on your START button you will get a drop down menu
choose EXPLORE
this will display the file structure on your computer... this is the BASIC filing system for everything i do
the PROGRAM files are all in a folder called PROGRAMS..
ART or CHIEF is in there
in that folder there is another one called PLANS.. this is the default folder where Chief normally stores all your plans
i have two harddrives... so i let my computer put programs in the C drive
but i store data in my other hard drive
no matter
every job has it's own folder... and Chief makes ARCHIVE folders too , that are sub folders of where ever you are storing the files
if you store your plan in it's own folder ( JOB folder), you can also store everything to do with that job..... estimates, propsals, correspondence, copies of emails, Change Orders.. everything
if you go to EXPLORER, click on the folder , it will display all the files in the folder,
there is a menu at the top of the screen.. click on VIEW
it will list all the ways you can view the contents of the active folder....
thumbnails, tiles, icons, list, & details.... i use details.. because it tells all about the file
including a time/date stamp
you need the time /date stamp so you can tell which is the most current file .. or which one was saved before something got screwed up
occasionally you can go thru and cull the files you don't need ... if you are absolutely sure you will never need them again
you can also go thru the ARCHIVE files that Chief automatically creates... cull those too
if you have two hard drives.... or maybe an external hardrive... yo can see them in EXPLORER also.. and you can set up the same folders in them
and create backups that you can edit and cull
have you gone to ChiefExperts.com ? Dan has a lot of free tutorials with practical procedures for doing the workflow
set up your job files in EXPLORER.....and use details to view your files
if you are already doing it this way.. then more power to you
i also have a JOB FILE that is simply a list of jobs
each job is a numeric sequence... for instance 2005 jobs ran from 2501 thru 2560
some jobs have two numbers, one for the design contract and one for the construction contract......so the "Adverse Conditions" job was 2506:Ludwig design
and 2560: Ludwig:build house
then i set up my job folders with the contract job numbers , so EXPLORER automatically arranges them in numerical order ( or any order you choose )
stop me if you know all this......
but , as you have pointed out, Chief makes lot's of backups, and auto backups, and every SAVE AS with a different name is a different file
keeping them in the correct folder will allow you to figure out which one you want to be working on
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, thank you for that very informative reply. First, I have to say that I have a PHD in un-organization. So my "file system" is something that a kindygardner might have designed. Second, I know about "exploring" but I don't ever remember exporing the start button. I do use the Window key, which is the start button but I think I'd prefer to explore the button more than just hitting it. I'll be doing that more in the future to see how that works. I didn't have a file called Plans in my arts or Chief Architect file. I have been saving them in a plan file down another street in my non-system. I'll have to go look in there for the archives. Just mentioning the word "archives" brings up a laugh. You tell me to "ccasionally you can go thru and cull the files you don't need ... if you are absolutely sure you will never need them again" which is somewhat of an oxymoron because the mere mention of "make sure you will never need them again" means "DON'T DELETE ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING". The program used to pop up something for me to "manage my archives". I went to the helpful manual and of course there is nothing in there that explains what "managing my archives". That translates to "DON'T DO ANYTHING...". Sometimes a popup would ask me to relink my files. Again, that meant "DON'T DO ANYTHING...". I'm admitting that I'm hopless. I need an intern to set up my file system and I need an intern to explain everything you just told me. I can navigate around the computer but I can't create a simple file system to find anything. I can walk around a cluttered rough frame and mentally figure out where all the scraps of usuable wood is. I can remember where every stick of lumber is in the huge lumber piles but I can't remember anything about a filing system on a computer. I'm hopeless but I thank you kindly for your help. I'm man enough to admit that I have no talent for this stuff and will be delegating everything asap! LOL! Actually, right now, I'm searching for a useful job for me within my own company LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
book 'em dano...
i mean book your trip to Doud's.. and bring your laptop... i'll bring mine
maybe we can get Doud to run us some extension cords.. or steal the one ralph & beckman are using for thier jam sessionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What Mike said.When you open up a new Chief plan, it would take less than a minute to draw four walls and automatically generate a roof. With that, you would be able to generate a foundation plan, elevation views, sections, framing plans etc. Theoretically, an entire plan could be generated in five minutes. If you tried to duplicate all that using only the Cad drawing tools, it would take several hours. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mainly, I "document" jobs in three ways. I sketch out the work .... primarily the electrical ... as I find it in the beginning.
I sketch out the changes that I make, and refer to them for future maintenance, or additional projects (most of my work is for repeat customers).
Finally, I usually provide an "as built" drawing at the end of the job. Only rarely is my work on ordinary houses. Again, the majority is "tenant improvements" to commercial rentals. On these jobs, adjoining spaces may be combined, and walls are routinely moved.
It sounds like most of your work would be floor plan work. I believe that the $60 version would do that and it would also have an electrical tool. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i have the "trial" version which is free. they mail you a CD
the limitations of it are:
Trial Version Limitations
The following features have been removed or reduced in the Trial Version:
if you are considering this, it is definitely worth it.
Softplan provides the same type of trial as well.
carpenter in transition
Chief is a great way to output 3D visuals for clients, I have the full version, luckily I didn't have to pay for it. In any case in about one to two hours I can go from having forgotten how to use the program to these types of drawings.
I'm not feeling too bad. I think I could do that in two hours or less! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I first bought chief architect I figured I'd only be using the line drawing capabilities in order to create construction documents. I have to say that the 3D capabilities are what make the program though. It is really fun when you see your drawings come to life, almost like you're taking a photograph of what's in your mind's eye.
I'll post a couple of renderings of a house I'm planning on building. I finished these drawings a few days ago. There's a ton of time into them but like folks have said on here, simple stuff can be accomplished in a matter of minutes.
This really is a remarkable program, although it does have bugs, like I'm guessing most software does. The folks that write it do seem to be making an effort to improve it all the time, so I appreciate that.
excellent.....great renderings
much better effort than any of mine... i usually never get much beyond importing .jpgs of existing conditions and some perspectives ( cad detail )
my the time i'd have renderings, the project would be half done
want some critique ?.. or should i just let it go at than ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. You're right, it can be a ton of work to get the 3D model done close enough to the way you want it. However, I've found the renderings really do convey a sense of what you're trying to do to the person you're building for. Also, I'm finding out that getting plans past design review boards is a major hassle and having accurate renderings is pretty helpful. Once you have the model done in chief it's fairly straightforward to move to construction documents, although that's no small amount of work either.
It definitely took some effort to be able to learn the program well enough to do this particular drawing but there's a lot more going on there than meets the eye. I don't see how you could effectively learn chief without the videos. That being said, basic plans take very little time and effort to figure out. Someone on here said they could draw a simple house in a matter of minutes and that's true.
I'd be curious to see your critique of the design itself. If there's something I can use, I will.
Tom
well.... from the views, i like the design
the only two things that jumped out at me were the garage doors & the front steps
the garage doors might like a little different look.... and the casing could be tweaked so it is the same as the doors/windows
the stairs could use some "soffits" or " polylines" with a stone material so they would look like bluestone caps
but your rendering is pretty flawless....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/9/2008 7:17 pm ET by MikeSmith
i took a closer look... you do have the same casing... is that a 9' door ..or an 8' door ?
View Image
and
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/9/2008 7:20 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 2/9/2008 7:21 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 2/9/2008 7:21 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 2/9/2008 7:23 pm ET by MikeSmith
Hi Mike,
I actually plan on doing a garage door similar to the front door, looks-wise. It's the basic craftsman style. (I've got some Greene & Greene type ideas for the interior stair and entry.) As you know, Chief has a limited range of options and deviating is where the tediousness creeps in. As a matter of fact, the entire front porch is built of polyline solids, except for the roof. That's what makes the models so dang time consuming. So anyway, I'm thinking I won't go to the trouble of drawing up my idea for the garage door and the front porch steps are a generic chief tile. I mean, you could go crazy detailing out a place. Those knee braces on the second floor and the rafter tails took plenty long enough, heh, heh.
I agree, solid stone slabs would look pretty impressive for the stair. I'll be thinking along those lines when I build it. Like I was saying though, the renderings are "close enough" to what I have in mind to be able to use the drawings at the design review board. I've never built a house that looked exactly like the plans I started with so I'm not expecting this one to be any different. It's always a work in progress.
Thanks for the input.
Tom
sun.. i do appreciate the amount of work that went into it....
if you have any more.. be sure and let us see them
i'll pick nits on my own work and leave yours aloneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks again Mike.
It sure is enjoyable seeing those renderings draw themselves on the computer monitor for the first time. Makes it worth the effort.
I am doing drawings for a house I intend to build for myself. Maybe I'll put them up here one of these days.
Tom
Howdy Mike,
Here's a house I plan on building for myself in the not too distant future. Anything jump out at you as being off? I've been looking at and thinking about this thing for so long I can't see it any more, if you know how that goes. I've found that people who have an eye for design and give an honest first take often contribute to refreshing my view. (I really like Frank Lloyd Wright's stuff, if you can guess some of the inspiration.)
Tom
Are you trying to do that with no facia or frieze?
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Yep, I want to do a knife edge but chief won't allow anything less than a 1" fascia so that's what's drawn. I have an interesting idea for the soffits. I figure on putting a granite strip around the stone decks where the water will land but it's a relatively dry part of the world, until it rains that is, heh, heh. I'll have to divert over the doors but I think I can pull that off fairly subtly.
This thing is going to be very tricky to frame. Lots of steel.
Tom, I usually don't like wright stuff but I like your design. I had to look twice about that lack of fascia. Thats an interesting detail. You'll have to have something....two inches minimum. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Jim. It is influenced somewhat by some of the things FLW did, although not totally. I don't care for everything he came up with either, just some of the basic elements.
Not to contradict, but there is an archy here who uses a zero facia on a lot of his stuff. it is possible.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I've seen it done to great effect. Not with the materials I'm planning on using though. The roof I'm thinking of was done in zinc panels or something like that. Pretty cool.
All things are possible. The devil is in the details. You'd have to be describing a metal roof of some kind, which undoubtedly would have ribs...about 1" high. I stand corrected. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Nope.Wood shingles
Asphalt shinglesI could draw up a detail, if you want, but basically, the rater is cut to a point, soffit is 1x6T&G, then the roof sheathing hangs just barely over that. The drip edge hides the sheathing, and the shingles run up from there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I stand corrected. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I had to model that to get it in my head but that method actually simplifies a few things. Depending on the pitch & rafter depth with no facia there may be no need for the filler 2x to support the soffit (1x6 T&G in your example) due to the long cut on the rafter to make the point. Is blocking still required along the wall to support the soffit? Not sure if ply would work with no support between the rafter though (would sag over time.. No?) Very clean.
Edited 3/31/2008 9:55 am ET by john7g
Good illustration, tho the ply sheathing comes just a bit lower to cover T>he ones i've seen had a steeper pitch and large overhang, so they still used 2x supports to the wall.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No, no standing seams. Metal shingles, fairly large, on a diagnol. However, I've also seen pictures of a knife edge roof done in slate. Basically you over run the edge of the soffit. I'd like to do the roof in copper shingles because it would be the perfect material for the stone I have in mind and would go well with the surrounding environment but I'm not exactly wealthy, heh, heh. If I work up the detail any time soon I'll post it on here. My engineer is doing his calculations at the moment so I'll be on the working drawings again some time soon, (I hope anyway, my guy is kind of slow).
Don't mean to but-in but! There is a house being built up the street from me tore down a 500M house) that has a knife edge fascia. They had fabricated out of metal what looked like the trailing edge of the rib of an aircraft wing. and attached them to each of rafter tails. They also included a recessed/concealed gutter system. Pretty slick but I bet it cost about as much as an aircraft wing.
I bet there are more than one of us who would enjoy learning from a photo of that detail if you can sneak one in
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I'll check and see if the soffit is still open exposing the rafter tails. Also, I have to admit that my computer skills are minimal. I will have to get one of my grandkids involved. But I will try. All of my cameras use real film.
I'm interested in pics too if possible. When I was making the pic I posted metal edge & roof came to mind as something easily done with it.
Your profile doesn't say where you are at. If you are in a climate that has alot of winter you can pretty much guarantee you will get ice damming with the rafters or trusses tight low, without any room for adequate ventilation. If you are in a warm climate not to worry. Looks good!
Have a good day
Cliffy
I can think of half a dozen ways to detail that and still get plenty of ventilation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The ventilation is not the primary concern I was eluding to. I am refering to that in a winter climate, in a typical attic assembly we may have easliy in excess of r-40 insulation. Where the rafter sits on top of the top plate, or where a traditional design truss sits on the top plate there just simply is not enough room to insulate effectivelly. The result is heat loss through this junction all winter, however combine this heat loss with March sun and daytime temperatures above freezing, ice damming occurs. If he designed the same "razor" with raised heel trusses or sat the rafters on a second plate on top of the ceiling joists he will have room for more insulation. The tell tale sign on the elevation is siding or brick above the window.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Thanks for the compliment Cliffy. This house will be located just north of Calistoga, which is at the northern end of Napa valley in California. Good thing too, because I don't know the first thing about all that ice damming stuff you wrote about, heh, heh!
I'm impressed! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Jim. I'm glad you like it.