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I am building a house for some Chinese people and am having problems. They nit pick about things that get buried and than bring old doors for me to install in place of the new one. Now they are trying to renegotiate change orders after they are installed.I told him that ther must be a misunderstanding but he swears that ther is’nt. I’ve talked with some builder friends of mine and they have experienced simmilar problems with Chinese clients they have had. I have stopped work on the house until we come to an agreement but can’t be sure that they won’t try to alter it. Any advice or comments out there? Reply to [email protected]
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Rick,
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© 1999-2001
"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
Aristotle
*Joe is being suttle. Is it a fueng shuey (sp) disagreement. Or just a quality dispute. ?
*rick....I am building a house for some Yankee people and am having problems. They nit pick about things that get buried and than bring old doors for me to install in place of the new one. Now they are trying to renegotiate change orders after they are installed.I told him that ther must be a misunderstanding but he swears that ther is'nt. I've talked with some builder friends of mine and they have experienced simmilar problems with Yankee clients they have had. I have stopped work on the house until we come to an agreement but can't be sure that they won't try to alter it. Any advice or comments out there? Reply to Any Builder@that'slife.org
*Damn Yankees...
*I think fueng shuey may have somethig to do with his perceptions. None the less my contract and Description of materials describe pretty well what was proposed.There are always grey areas. I have the feeling that he thinks that it has to be the way it feels right to him weither or not it was what was proposed.I was hoping to get some insight but some of the posts instead mearly criticize the way my first post was written.Rick
*Rick,How about explaining to your clients, in a very friendly way, that you cannot serve their very real and flexible (read "ever changing") needs within the context of a fixed price contract? If you do cost plus or T&M, you will be freed to accommodate their whims, and they will be newly motivated to plan carefully. A lot of high end work happens that way precisely because the clients want the freedom to figure it out as they go, and trust the contractor to act as a (paid) partner in the process. My own feeling is that the whole bid thing, while a much needed discipline, tends to divide us from our customers, and encourage an unrealistic expectation that the design of a living space can be completely worked out on paper beforehand. I am biased towards responsive design, a process of constant small corrections, like driving a car, and attract customers who share that view.Of course, the other option is to spec everything super tight, and insist on written change orders for every deviation from the contract. The problem with that approach is that it comes across as punitive to both parties, and tends to inhibit the free exchange of ideas.Whatever you do, it is really important to find some common ground, so you can convey sincerely to them how much you want to be of real service and to improve the communication between you and them. Best of luck.One more thing. If feng shui considerations are important to them, it might be helpful to try and read something about the principles, in order to better understand their point of reference. I recommend "Feng Shui Made Easy" by William Spear for a more culturally neutral understanding of the means and ends of feng shui, and "Feng Shui Design" by Sarah Rossbach and Master Lin Yun for a helpful understanding of the Chinese cultural overtones as they apply to the home.Bill
*There possibly (probably?) are cultural differences at play here.It has been said that Western cultures tend to belief words are reality, and that eastern cultures don't see it that way. (See, i e.g., "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig.)I would consider loking for a third party to mediate at this point; if there are any multinational corps in your area, contact their HR Dept to see if there are any multi-cultural trainers near you who can bring an understanding of this cultural stuff to the process.
*Although I think it's disgusting that you'd call them something as derogitory as "chinese", I'll answer anyway.(Don't worry about Joe Fusco and Mike Smith...one's italian and the other's a white guy from New England.b Those people are real touchy you know)I've had to deal with alot of Chinese travelers when I worked in hotels. And had a Chinese Housekeeping Supervisor who worked under me at another job. The chinese (If I may be so bold as to call them that)seem to expect that they will be taken advantage of at any moment. Perhaps it's just us American's they distrust but expect them to want to see every little detail and they will question all of it. They also seem to put a much higher value on honesty and integrity than most americans do. If you ever lie to them, or make up an answer to calm them down, it's a very big thing to them. I guess we American's expect some lies from time to time. Maybe that's why they don't trust us.The Chinese that I've delt with don't shy away from conflict the way we do. We think it's rude to get in someone's face...even if we know the other person has wronged us. The Chinese don't seem to mind such situations.And finally, for the Chinese I've known, every moment in life is an opportunity to negotiate something. But when negotiations are heated and they loose, it's no big deal.I wonder what we look like to them.
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View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*In terms of Asian philosophy I must have lived well in a prior life because I believe that my current karma is pretty good. Most of my clients are cool. Oh sure I get the "Oh while your here can you just do this and that" But other than that ?? As far as clients who "may" be difficult to deal with, I have my personal list. All people with a check book that they will open up when they are provided a service!
*Ryan: Well put. I might add that when I have a client come to my stairshop to discuss design, price, etc., I set a price and promise not to raise it as long as there are no changes.My experience in these meetings has taught me a few things about people. If they try to save money by going to less quality parts, or by doing some of the installation, thats one thing. But when they try and haggle my price down like its a used stairway lot, then red flags start popping up. The more they try to cut my price, I actually get firmer on my price and start wishing I had quoted higher. This negotiating characteristic is likely to continue through the whole project.Here is one example: About three years ago, I had a client that owned a bunch of motels come to my shop. He was from India. I looked over his plans, we talked about balusters etc., I then gave him a price. He hung around for two hours trying to get me down $1000.00. Against my better judgement, I met him halfway. However, during this two hour car dealing, I knew I would put much more upfront payments in our contract. I wanted half upfront, and the remainder less $1000, on day of delivery, and the final $1000 upon completion. I had control of this except the final $1000.He is from India, and these people are so distrustful of their government that it carries over to foreigners as well. He was constantly paranoid I was trying to pull something over on him, whether it be me overpricing, taking shortcuts, etc.I built his stairway being super picky on wood selection etc., just knowing how his kind are.To make a long story short, there were constant reasurements to him that he was getting what was promised. However he constantly tried to make you fell guilty by questioning newel selection, bslusters, rail, etc. He was even expecting me to do all the other railing work throughout the house, that was supposed to be done by him, and it was rather extensive. I just had to stay firm with him, and I did get my final $1000.
*Uptight people here I see. It IS NOT BEING A RACIST TO REALIZE THAT SOME CULTURES ARE DIFFERENT AND DEAL WITH BUSINESS DIFFERNTLY. Duh. If you go through life treating everyone the same no matter what cultural or ethinic background, you are going through life with blinders on(self imposed).
*Don't deal with different kinds on people with different kinds of agreements. It's business!Create you own style of how you form an agreement, the agreement itself, and how you deal with changes to that agreement. Sorry, the customer has to realize he is doing business with me. I dictate how that business will be conducted with-in the parameters of their personal or culturals requirements. You must draw out and require the client to express those requirements before you get to the point of forming a binding agreement with them. The time spent before, discussing, drawing, planning, understanding their needs and spelling out your requirments is worth the investment to get the job done. Hang tuff, but hang consistant. Luck
*Pussy.
*this isn't a question of being politically correct.. this is an example of thinking of your customers in generalities instead of as individuals...too bad for you.... i can't think of any single ethnic or cultural group that couldn't or hasn't been substituted in the poster's opening statement of the situation..if you want to exclude certain groups from consideration as your customers.. send them to me....as far as stopping work... good luck.. better seek some legal advice about when yuou have the right to stop work....
*Mike: Bravo, well put. As I said prior, anyone who is paying may be difficult. People are people. Like it or not we are a business of human relations. The fact the we put up dry wall or run wires only serves as a vehicle to interact and provide service to others. Good service means we get paid. If someone does not like dealing with people then I might suggest another line of work.
*No matter what ethnic group, when it comes to conflict within the context of a contract, all are subject to 'reasonable' practice and behavior as interpreted by the courts in ruling on contractual issues.Most people on the professional side of the building business know what is reasonable and what is not, although there are always some issues that come up that are subject to interpretation. Many clients do not understand what is considered reasonable behavior.Although it is too late here, perhaps one way to approach things is to inform at the beginning (as suggested) what will be considered reasonable over the course of the contract from your perspective, assuming that the clients may i nothave any idea, due in some cases to ethnic and/or cultural differences.
*Hey JOE! What's wrong with Jersey!(Talk about a loaded question)I have Chineese neighbors, they are great people, I like them very much, but they worry a whole bunch about really stupid ineffectual details. To have them as a paying client means I would probably have to cross them off the christmas list. I think it is probably a cultural thing: inherrant worry.As for the doors, the thing I have found up here with the immigrant population is that the reason they came to America is to have the best stuff, and they equivilate that with having modern stuff, hence the vast acres of vinyl and alluminum siding that I bear witness to everyday (I pray that particular brand of salesmen are buried Hitler-deep in Hell). New arrivals don't necessarilly appreciate the finer points of our heritage in architectural detail. Explain to them without condescencion why that old heart pine door is better than some hollowcore Home Depot junk.And in terms of being racist, if using generalities to help you understand why a person is behaving a certain way is being racist then that makes me a racist and if you call me that you are in for an ass wuppin. Say you have a friend from Bombay and he's being really aggressive and you think wow this guys being a jerk. Well, if you think about living in Bombay, it is really crowded and to get a papaya from the fruit stand you have to butt in front of people and shout your demands, thats how it was back home for this guy and it's standard operating procedure. I think that if you encounter a pushy India and then say to yourself "this is how it works in their society because of this" is not being racist, you're forgiving out of cultural understanding, multiculturalism, or the antithesis of racism.Hows that for turning things around on ya?
*Traditional Chinese negotiations require you to say "No" seven times before it is accepted as a real "No". Another firm tenet of Chinese business is "If you don't ask,you don't get.". As long as you understand this you will do fine.
*When I read the original post, I questioned the "Chinese" part. I think what R. Barta was really indicating was that he was dealing with internationals (that's the politically correct term we use around here). I hope he wasn't singling out a particular nationality.I deal with people from other countries daily. Two characteristics I've noticed apply here. One is that they're inclined to be distrustful. I can't blame them. Not knowing our customs, etc., they're quite vulnerable. I would feel the same in their country. The second is that many of them are not at all familiar with things we consider to be basic knowledge. Some are here because they did well in school. Those may have traded academics for practical knowledge. Others are here because their families had money. In their culture, a lower class may have handled practical things for them.The most important thing I've learned: deal with the cultural difference openly. I find myself saying "In this country we..." and asking "How is it done in your country?" You'll learn a lot and gain a lot of trust if you don't skirt around the obvious.
*In my experience "in this country we" is a bit of a put-down. Making it impersonal "in this countryi they" may blunt it a bit, but you're still letting them know that they're on the wrong side and you have to use it sparingly and with a gentle hand (Ted, I get the feeling you have a light touch, so probably rarely offend - and your approach, of course, is likely the best). Can I suggest modifying the words to something like: "I'm in the habit of", or "Most of my customers seem to ....."; "Do you have some preferences ?".
*Ever hear people tell horror stories about "contractors"? About how they don't show up, do poor work, charge too much, use inferior materials, never call back, and on and on and on. Does that make all of us that way?
*Rick, all this PC mumbo jumbo isn't doing you any good. Communication is my problem, I'm talking about one thing and "they" are nodding their heads so I think "we" are in agreement. When the job is done & they aren't happy it is because "we" weren't talking about the same thing. Been there, done that & don't know what the answer is. I have one Chinese couple, she does most of the talking & then they talk to each other & then she talks to me some more. I KNOW I don't know what she is saying about half the time. I keep trying to get it right, but it doesn't always happen. I long ago had a Korean anestheologist(sp) client who I could NOT understand. I always wondered how this guy managed in surgery, he sure couldn't tell me what the hell he wanted. Sometimes I'd get a phone call from one of his kids to explain it to me later. Joe H
*Wow! Talk about a loaded question. I must admit that I am a racist. I have been around the world a few times and lived and worked in 6 countries. I do believe that there are differences, both cultural and possibly genetic that can be applied to a given group of people. This does not make them inferior or superior to 'us'. It does mean that to deal with them either in business or personal matters, you must be aware of the differences. I have clients who start by questioning every penny but after several jobs they now trust me to do my job and charge them fairly. I had one client who said yes' to all the options I suggested. I went ahead and did them, only to find out that he was simply acknowledging the choices - not making one. That cost me. As for the Chinese, I have nothing to say but good things. Now if we talk about Hungarians............ Derek Nayler
*You have a difficult client. I would be ready to walk off the job before I loose the profit margin. More likely you will not be working with this client again of get referrals from him anyway. It's only fair that you get paid for what was on the contract. He's trying to bully you for more than what's fair.
*I am from Jersey etc. has told you already the best thing about dealing with Chinese. Take his advice. Or threaten to bring in a gwailo fa si.
*This subject took on a life of its own. I have to say that, in spite of what a few think , there was nothing racist in my comments on "Chinese clients". If you think so perhaps you need to reveiw recent headlines "Pesident unhappy with Chinese involvement in Iraq". Please send a letter to every national columnest. There are cultural differeces between races of different countries and I was seeking to find out what those may be so I could improve my relationship with my Chinese clients. Thanks to all who offered me helpful advice .You know who you are.Rick
* P.S. Mikes comment"this is an example of thinking of your customers in generalities instead of as individuals" is a paradox. He is generalizing them as customers and by doing so denys them of cultural differences that may be motivating them in their actions. Too bad for you! I certainly am not interested in excluding anyone as a customer but am interested in finding out how I can work better with them. Sorry you are so easy to offend Mike.Rick
*Okay, here's one to debate.I'm good friends with another contractor in this area. Home improvements, repairs, handyman and alittle bigger projects.He won't work for anybody but whites. And he won't work for senior citizens. He doesn't like minorities and says senior citizens just spend they're whole day nit-picking.Is he wrong? I mean should he be any different? I figure it's his right to turn down any work he wants to turn down for any reason. I'll work for just about anybody but he's not obligated to. A black fraternity ought to be able to keep whites from joining, I'm in favor of all women's colleges (I lived less than two miles from one...I'm really in favor of all women's colleges!), and the AARP ought to be able to keep out teenagers.Should my friend be able to exclude minorities and seniors from his customer list?
*i'm not offended, rick, why should i be.. i'm not chinese.....i just wanted to point out that i've been in the same boat with any number of customers..chinese, indian, swamp yankee, .. there is no monopoly on difficult customersit's up to you to find out how to comunicate with them.. or know when to walk away...before trouble starts...after you are in a contractual relationship with someone.. you had best do everything in your power to execute the contract or you may find yourself on the wrong side of a court judgement...shutting down a job is not something to do lightly.. you should proceed with caution......
*Rick, I have never had to deal with Chinese customers directly, but I have framed house for them. Usually, they are quite smiley as they tour the emerging home. One thing that I learned was that the builder immediately became the builder of choice for this close knit community. If you can find a way to solve your cultural difficulties, you might end up with a nice stream of quality referrals. Each successive endeavor will undoubtedly get easier.blue
*Ryan,Don't think there is much to debate. You buddy limits his clients based on their race, age, what else? Perhaps he sees this as making his job easier. More power to him. Only when he bitches about lack of work or lack of increase in income. Serves him right. I think this policy is based on laziness.The fact is, boomers are becoming seniors, they got lots of money, so do minorities. That money is going to go to the guy who can create a system that is easy for anyone, reqardless of their background, to understand.Calling a contractor, for many folks, is scary. Alleviate that fear from the start with straightforward policies that apply to everybody, no deviations, and you'll get the job and the money. Sure, some people are first class pain in the asses.My point is, when I walk in the door and the customer objects to a policy that I have, I walk out, losing an hour, instead of adapting to their demands that wreaks my life. It's not "this is how we do it here". It's "This is how I conduct MY business, Sorry I can help you".And I've found it works for any "group".Luck
*Mr Fusco: Just what is wrong with Jersey? It is a fine little island belonging to Britain, and located just off the coast of France.NEW Jersey! Now that is a different thing altogether.
*Perhaps if you sat down with them with a nice dish of fermented monkey paw everything could be worked out and a fun time could be had by all....P.S... Don't really eat the monkey paw, its probably silverback(really tough and smells like Diane Fossy)
*
I am building a house for some Chinese people and am having problems. They nit pick about things that get buried and than bring old doors for me to install in place of the new one. Now they are trying to renegotiate change orders after they are installed.I told him that ther must be a misunderstanding but he swears that ther is'nt. I've talked with some builder friends of mine and they have experienced simmilar problems with Chinese clients they have had. I have stopped work on the house until we come to an agreement but can't be sure that they won't try to alter it. Any advice or comments out there? Reply to [email protected]