My wife & I are building our own house & will have the shell closed up in about 3 weeks (God willing) after which I plan to run the DWV lines (I figure supply lines & wiring are more easily adjusted around already installed drain lines than the other way around).
Anyway, a friend of mine (who is a plumber) suggested using CI for the second floor (less noisy) & plastic for the first floor.
Cost is definitely an issue & also I’ve dealt with PVC & ABS before, but have never worked with CI, so I was wondering what you guys thought about this:
All the walls where the plumbing would be run are 2×6. I though if I put in plastic & wrapped some carpet padding or something around it & insullated the living room side of the wall (1/2″ rigid foam or something), it would muffle the sound. Has anyone tried this?
I also wondered what plastic is prefered. Our old house had ABS (was very noisy – but then again, there was no insullation around the pipes either) & it seems most new construction in my area has it. PVC seems sturdier (to me) & isn’t that much more expensive. Is there a reason most people use ABS over PVC?
Replies
I would rate the pipes in this manner; C.I. no. one, copper no. two, pvc no. three, and the last abs no. four. I would suggest that you run cast iron to the highest fixture and vent with abs or pvc. May luck be with you.
i recomend using CI verticle drops definately, then insuilate the other horizontal waste pipes. Icynene insulation is a great noise insulator. I recomend icynene for all houses.
I had our plumbers install CI vertical stacks for the noise abatement issues you mention. Our walls are thin, so there is little room inside for the Icynene to do it's magic. In large modern chases and so on, it'll probably be quite effective.
I would avoid CI pipes on horizontal runs as any sag, snag, etc. will eventually lead to rot, rust, and a leak. It may take a long time, but nothing sticks to PVC and the stuff doesn't rust.
Copper pipes are great but so expensive, I doubt many people still use them. Plus, the lack the mass of CI pipes and hence will not muffle the sound as effectively. On the other hand, they won't rust out unless your water is very acidic. Plus, when combined with a heat exchanger, Cu-pipes can seriously stretch your hot water supply (see GFXtechnology.com).
If you are serious about piping the house yourself, I would suggest you spend some good amount of time familiarizing yourself with, and planning the pipe system. There are some good books on the matter, and some issues like venting may not be obvious to the layperson, but very important to the effectiveness of the system and the building inspector.
Good luck, and don't forget to use the purple primer first if you ever decide to join PVC pipes & pieces. Also, assembling them first, marking the proper orientation with a sharpie first, etc. helps a lot in getting the system right before the glue sets up. Best yet, hire a plumber to supervise you or to do the work for you. There may be better uses for your elbow-grease.
Someone here posted good results from wrapping sheet lead around plastic pipe to muffle the sound. Mass is what makes the CI pipe quieter. As for copper DWV, it's main use is places where you need maximum ID with minimum holes thru the structure.
-- J.S.
Sheet lead? Sure it's dense, thus the whole alpha ray/neutron ray shielding thing, non-corrosive, malleable and inexpensive but wrapping drinking water lines with a metal that causes brain damage, anti-social violent behavior, developmental aberations and , oh yeah, death may seem a seam a stretch for quiet flushing. Or is it Ok to risk everyone else's water by using it only on waste lines? Where does your own water supply come from? Sooner or later heavy metals like Pb show up in the worst ways, down the road or across the county. I do hear that lead is great when added to paint and asbestos insulation is fireproof.
We're talking about drain pipes, not supply pipes & besides, the waste water would never come in contact with the lead (since it's wrapped around the outside & if it ever got out of the drain pipe where it COULD contact the lead, you'd notice the leak since the wrapping wouldn't be water tight anyway.
Besides, I like the idea of packing the cavity with cellulose anyway.
Edited 7/21/2005 10:16 pm ET by Johnny
Johnny: I have well water here in Nawth Jawja (Honey Chile!). Was told NOT to use any copper for supply. That it would corrode out in acidic water. I used PVC & CPVC throughout the shop when I plumbed it. EXCEPT for the tail piece from the sink. After about 5 yrs, I started having leakage from the tail piece. Thought of all sorts of reasons why, except for corrosion. After another two yrs, the tail piece fell off in my hand, completely corroded through. The moral to this story is obvious!Cheers!DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
OK, OK, I'll forget the lead. I'll just use this leftover plutonium instead.... ;-)
-- J.S.
save that expensive plutonium for the hot water lines; its density muffles sound nicely but the big benefits are its radiation. One the gamma rays kill any microbes in the water and two plutonium is infra-red radiant--its hot so you'll save on water heating expenses.
I thought Pu gave off neutrons - you know, Jimmy's father & mother.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
And don't gorget Brobot, Mombot and Dadbot!
Johnny: We have a 4" vertical waste line that runs through a small wall just behind the dining area table in the kitchen/dining area. I packed the cavity w/ cellulose around the pipe. Now PVC is supposed to be noisey, but we have never heard any water rushing/falling through the pipe. Matter of fact, we had our daughter flush the john while we all sat at the table to listen for it. Don't even remember what we heard, it was that innocuous.
If you choose to do your own plumbing work, I strongly recommend the suggestion on the back cover of the mailer for the May/June issue of FHB (I think). Use a CI pipe hanger to get yourself leverage while seating the 4" stuff. Unless you are Hulk Hogan, you just don't have the grip to seat 4" pipe in cramped spaces.
Don
Congratulations on the progress of your house! I remember you posting framing Q's (I think) before, not so long ago.
My plumbers use CI waste pipe for the vertical floor to floor runs. They install a Fernco coupling at the top and the bottom of the CI stack to connect to the PVC. The rest of the house's DWV is PVC. I've had other plumbing companies do the same thing, so I think it is a common practice - or at least around here.
If you are going to foam the PVC drain/waste pipes, I'd even consider not even using any CI and just foam it all, especially since you have 6" walls for the plumbing. Obviously, there is no reason to worry about vent pipes. Be forewarned though that the foam is not inexpensive - but it is easy enough to install... You can order canister kits off the internet.
Check your local building code. Some areas (mine, for instance) do not allow plastic pipe inside a residence.
Every new house going up in our municipality has plastic drain pipes.