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I’d like to hear feedback on the use of exterior trim materials for use today. Old school says redwood & cedar a must, but with so many options available what are the important factors?
My view is that as long as the final application will be paint, what lies beneath does not have to be the naturally weather resistant materials of old. I’m not against the use of redwood or cedar, however their costs makes for a search of options and simply the common sense of it all.
Whether using pine, Doug fir, or composites, as long as all sides are primed and sealants are used at each stage of application to prohibit water infiltration behind the stock, it seems to me, naturally water resistant materials are not mandatory.
ITEM #2
Pacific Wood Laminates Inc./ Clear Lam V-Rustic siding.
I am using this product and would like to hear from other contractors who are familiar with it and have witnessed how it has held up over time. Please describe application techniques and extra measures taken however not described in the tech data sheet. For example at the gable walls which have a roof to wall situation and where the siding meets the roof, I am holding the siding back one inch away from the roof surface and applying
i BONDO
at the edges to protect plywood end grain.
Appreciate the feedback, now off to the archives.
Replies
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if we get to spec it.. and it will be painted.. we use GP Prime Trim..
loves paint.... decay resistance on a par with redwood... available in 5/4 x 4,6,8,10, & 12
and 1x 4,6,8,10, & 12...
it doesn't like mitering... but we do use a scarf joint in all our long runs ( as we do with all exterior trim)
*I'll second what Mike says... GP PrimeTrim is good stuff.
*Thanks for the feedback, I have checked out GP's Prime Trim, however my question is if I'm ordering exterior moldings, would any tree species work, ie. poplar, as long as it is primed and painted and maintained throughout the years?Or, is it the experience of others to convenience the homeowner of the need to special order the exterior materials in redwood?
*Mark - I see people putting up pine all the time for exterior trim... but in my opinion, it's false economy. Paint and caulk have a very limited life span. The paint film starts to develop cracks due to movement in the wood, and then water is right behind. We have always tried to use rot-resistant wood. We used to use a lot of mahogany.As far as the homeowner is concerned, I always try to convince them that it's cheaper to buy good material now than it is to paint it or replace it later.
*I have to agree with Nick. The cost savings in upkeep and then replacement is definately offset if you use weather friendly materials from day one. Water damage, rot , repair , and finally replacement can get costly in exchange for a few dollars now for proven material. Besides as a carpenter I always feel more comfortable applying a weather resistant material as opposed to a weather resistant coating on top of a non-resistant material.
*I'm not thoroughly convinced. Don't get me wrong, I agree in the common sense to use materials which are by nature, characteristically going to hold up through time. I want to challenge conventional wisdom and see if others may agree.I'm working with a client to design some of his exterior elements. Rarely are the more elaborate moldings available in redwood without special order. Not a problem, however I stop to wonder, as long as high quality paints and sealants are used along the way, with an equal attention to construction, why not use a species that costs a quarter as much?Anyone else?
*it's all about labor mark...if you are going to spend your customer's money on exterior trim... the labor will be the big factor..if you spend that money on species that are not decay resistant, expect to come back in 6 years to replace some of it..the pine you can buy today is not the same pine we could get in the '70's..and the paint (with no lead) is not the same either..GP Prime Trim is not the carpenter's dream material..but it does love paint..it is decay resistant.. and it's compatible and in the same league as the other materials available for long life..vinyl clad windows... fibercement siding ...40 year roof shingles.. and acrylic paints..gimmme a specific.. what are you going to use ?if it's pine? is it FJ? is it factory primed?what grade is it going to be.. where we build...the long life choices are cedar, redwood, luan, or synthetics...priming and backpriming won't help you a lot if your species wants to check and split...b but hey,whadda i no ?
*Thanks Mike,Materials I'm pulling from the yards are primarily primed, finger jointed pine. The client is looking into other trim elements from catalogues provided by local mills. I was thinking to save a few bucks by avoiding redwood as long as proper measures were taken during installation.I am taking the same care with the pine as I would with a naturally resistant material, so I figured with the combination of a high grade polyurethane sealant and priming all faces (cut ends included) with the appropriate exterior paints, the underlying material, regardless of species would be protected.Sounds like it has been your experience, unless redwood, cedar, etc... moisture will make it's way through and begin decaying. Is this from poor installation and finish materials? That's my dilemma, if proper building techniques are implemented, and the use of proper paint applications, wouldn't the underlying material remain safe?Perhaps todays technology is not that advanced.Thoughts?
*i've used a lot of FJ primed pine.. and #2 primed pine..but it just hasn't held upi've also got some 5/4 pine i installed in 1976 that still has the original Sherwin William A-100 exterior latex on it... the owner never painted it..i drive by .. i can see a little end grain rot.. but mostly ok.. the point is we've been backpriming and end priming every raw cut for 25 years...the pine you get today will not last.. and the FJ will open up..we use a lot of 5/4 so it will stand proud of the siding.. but the 5/4 redwood was pricing us out of the market.... the synthetics (like GP PrimeTrim) give us the detail we want..and the durability we need....you can also get MDF molding.. which works good for exterior if you use solid backing..it doesn't like toenailing.. so miters are tough...if the material is going to be painted , it seems like a big waste of redwood and cedar....
*I'm with Mike on all his points here Mark. We're happy to have exposed wood trim at all these days since most construction here is just vinyl and wrapped aluminum. Luckily, I don't have to take much of that work, but redwood is practically unheard of here in Wisconsin anymore. Lots of cedar, mostly warpy and knotty. I like primetrim, not sure if it'll hold up as well as the manufacturer says.On your second question--are you talking about pre-primed sheets very similar to T-111 but about 1/2 the cost? I just used this on a screen porch addition and so far I'm happy with it but like you I'm concerned about the seams. How big a pain in the neck was doing the bondo? I'm not sure if I like that idea since bondo soaks up water like a sponge--therefore it's up to the primer to stop water infusion, right?Good discussion,MD
*Thanks again,It would be difficult to put a dollar figure on the experience tradesmen such as yourselves bring to these discussions. Alot of guys can bark out that " you use redwood, well, cause thats what your suppose to use." Time to time I will challenge conventional wisdom, to figure a better way, save money, or simply to apply new technology to see if some processes can be changed. Let's face it, after reading the data sheets on some of the new materials and how they will last into the next millinium, nothing beats the comfort of time tested materials that can still be worked with our time tested wood working tools.The 1 x 8 siding described as item 2, is an engineered product. Basically a plywood substrate with a masonite face, HDO. The bondo is being applied to open end cuts where roof to wall situations occur, such as dormer sides. The siding has been held away from the roof surface about an inch and a quarter, however I want to be sure this exposed end would not absorb water, so I figured the bondo would provide a hard shell surface much like the masonite and finally primed.Wasn't to difficult, but does take planning and patience. After determining the angle and the length of the first piece, I could cut the entire run, stack all pieces, mix a batch of bondo and spread at the same time. Bondo does take a while to set, specially in this cold weather, well cold for Kalifornia. Time consuming, so many work areas must be available to stay busy. Not a problem with this particular project, but this process could use refinement.This stuff looks good, just trying to be carefull with installation to avoid problems down the road. Passing out data sheets to each carpenter is not enough. Some old dogs think they know better, need to remind them this is not the same stuff you have worked with in the past.I did not realize bondo to be sponge like. I thought good for cars, good for siding. Does that make sense? I think I was coming across as impressive up til now. M D have you tried bondo for exterior applications in the past?One item to look into, are the new siding, coiled nail guns.
*Hello Mark,Bondo is not water resistant. If you repair a car's sheet metal and leave a pinhole, water will get into the Bondo and cause the paint to bubble. Usually good body shops use a first layer of a fiberglass product that is waterproof. The fiberglass (many different product names - I think one is Duraglass) is very finely chopped and is premixed with the resin in a can so it is used much like bondo except it is far harder to work with and a little more expensive so it is usually just used as a first coat over welds or other such.Since you are looking for a waterproof material you might want to give it a try. Be sure to look for one that says it is finely chopped because some is made with 1" long fibers that are very hard to work with.Allan
*I guess a new thread is in order, but if anyone can chime in with a product to serve the purpose I originally intended with the i bondo, I'm all eyes.Refresher: I was using i Bondoto seal the edges of a one by eight engineered siding product that has a plywood substrate. The pieces which run up the sides of dormers have exposed edges not covered by another trim material. I was using the i bondo to create a hard shell finish like the MDO face to protect from moisture infiltration.Suggestions?
*I need to look into this Bondo thing more, not that my experience can't differ from Mad Dog's and Allan's. I've used gallons of Bondo (without fibers) for a couple decades to repair divots in garage floors, exterior woodwork (splits on Victorian porch columns, decay in wood sash, lock/hinge mortices), damaged concrete window sills, interior woodwork in moist areas, to fill knotholes, to patch three-coat plaster, and to fill substantial dents and rusted areas in cars, all without any of the water absorption probs mentioned or pinholing or paint bubbling. Bondo IS a polyester resin (glass fibers are added to it for strength over spans like rust holes), so i don't see how it could absorb water "like a sponge". I could see paint bubbling if there were a pinhole and a drying lamp were put over it such that the air expanding could make the paint bubble, however.The Bondo web page lists it as useful for repairing boat docks, whatever that means. There is also an 800 number.
*Mark,SG,I've used bondo for window repairs and it is excellent for that usage but I always get a good coat of primer and at least two coats of paint over it to seal it from the weather.It's possible I'm outdated on this--I haven't done any bodywork on cars since 1990 but when I did, anyone who's used it on cars will tell you to get primer on it before getting it wet. It will show rust marks right through it where water enters, and lose adhesion, not to say bring water to the original surface either. But that is 1980's bondo, maybe it's better now?I've got some old hinge mortises to bondo today. I'll take a chunk of dried up bondo and weigh it. Then I'll throw it in a pail of water, pull it out next week and weigh it, maybe we'll get some insight.MD
*Like Mad Dog, I have used Bondo to patch exterior woodwork with good results. However, in thin applications it does not work well. A painter used Bondo to fill nail holes on some PrimeTrim, and it flaked off after about a year. I think it is a combination of low adhesion and a different rate of expansion/contraction. I wouldn't use Bondo again in that situation, or to seal the ends of boards. I haven't tried it but I would think that using West System epoxy would be the best way of sealing the ends of something.
*FYITechnical data sheet for this product spells out the following;i "It is mandatory that all fresh cuts be reprimed with an unthinned 100% acrylic latex primer."I am following up with phone calls to get an answer from the manufacturer as to how to deal with this particular situation.So, I'll keep those interested informed.
*Mark, No poplar for the exterior.
*Thanks b Mango,I threw poplar into the mix for two reasons,one; it is what mills are running for interior moldings here on the Bay area, second as an unlikely candidate, I wanted to hear about the notion of the final paint application as the moisture inhibitor. In other words if the paint and sealants used keep the water away, underlying material should be safe.I still would like to hear of eye witness accounts of installing pine or otherwise where it did not hold up over time, and what the culprit was, bad installation... poor quality paint... etc...
*Nick,I've used Bondo to successfully replace exterior grade patching products that didn't hold, but i always prime before paint. Since Prime Trim is already primed, maybe the Bondo didn't get primed, and this caused the failure...? In that case, i would think perhaps it was due to the Bondo drying so hard that paint couldn't stick without the primer coat for adhesion...just trying to figure this out...I mix Bondo on old scraps of wood and throw them on the wood pile outside when i'm done...the blobs seem to be stuck on for life!
*Sorry b Mongo,Spell check didn't catch i mango.
*Hello All,I searched the web and didn't find much. I looked at 3M's website and while they don't have a lot of information, I did notice that the fiberglass products all are claimed to be waterproof while no such claim is made for the polyester filler.I think what happens is that polyester is like some plastics in that it will absorb water and expand. This will cause the resin to expand and fail on a microscopic level. Glass is, of course, stable in water so it does not do this.I've never used either on anything except the sheet metal of cars, so I have no clue how they would behave with wood.Allan
*Thanks Allan,One of the key points which caught my eye would be the difference in rate of expansion and contraction between the bondo and the siding.As I've said, should hear from the manufacturer Monday.I'll post results.Mark
*To those interested, the results are in from the manufacturer.They have simply stated to prime and paint the exposed end cut.That's it!Not good enough for me, I see this as a potential problem. Only time will tell.Thanks all.
*I have tried bondo on wood and have had very poor results where water is frequently present. Epoxy works much better.
*epoxy is the most suitable material for wood. It expands and contracts along with its host. another advantage inherent w/ epoxy is that liquid epoxy incorporates into wood's cellular structure and can then bond with solid epoxy filler making for a better result than solid epoxy alone. The four part approach is used by the West Marine system.Here in North Carolina I have never seen finger joint material work well outside no matter what it's coated with. And I have seen this crap framing high end windows and doors... the finger joints move too much to work, even under epoxy. Frikking engineers...
*I have successfully used MDF for exterior use on lower end jobs about 11c a bf must be primed all sides.
*George,Can you describe the epoxy you are speaking of? Who is the manufacturer?Is this the stuff I have seen advertised repairing the base of a column, or a window sill I believe?You don't have the highest regards for the engineered stuff, however are you familiar with the siding product I have described? If so, what da you think?
*Mark, we've been using Bondo for years on interior trim that gets painted. Recently used it on some factory preprimed MDF sanded with 80 grit, and it peeled off the primer but not the raw MDF. Guess nothing always works everywhere.
*Hey bucksnort, or is that Mr. billy to me,I have used it for interior work as well at times, my concern is exterior where it is exposed to the elements and the rate of expansion and contraction will be more severe. I should say the exposure isn't necessarily direct. I have applied it to the end cuts of siding running up the sides of dormers. These end cuts are held away from the roof's surface an inch and a quarter.So even though they will not be in standing water, I'm concerned about the water which will run down the sides (face) and eventually meet the ends. Anyone?
*Hey Mark, I think it should probably be Bucksnot, or, Hey Mr. Shithead, Sir, if you wanna really be formal.I just wanted to pass along a little bondo buzz. I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with the ends just being painted, as long as wet leaves,or ice or snow weren't up against them. But,then you are in California, aren't you?Cars see some pretty extreme conditions, but I'm leary of bondo on wood in a place like a sidewall on a house. I'd throw my lot with the epoxies.As far as exterior trim: I used #2 Common Pine (Severely painted) on my own house, but then, around this area are 100's of outbuildings sided in poplar or pine that have been standing for a hundred years with no paint and no rot. Maintenance seems the key. Can you help me post pictures?I wood if I could, BB
*Ya know Mr. Shithead, Sir, kinda has a ring to it. or Commander Shithead, I digress,I think you are right, and credit to the original poster who mentioned the issue of bondo. I'm not sure if you have read the entire thread, but the choice of exterior materials would seem to come down to maintaining the exterior finish.Earlier posts strongly disagree.Your last question with regard to help posting pictures, you want for me to post a shot of the dormers I describe?Or if you need help posting, I'm no true expert, but the archives have threads where it's explained pretty good.Thanks for you post, I'll send in a picture.
*"I'd like to hear feedback on the use of exterior trim materials for use today"I would stick to the old school on materials. Some of the modern materials that would do just as good cost just as much or more. Redwood and Cedars fine grain surfaces are better for painting than anything pine or fur."I am holding the siding back one inch away from the roof surface and applying BOND at the edges to protect plywood end grain."I would prime edge and then use flashing to prevent water from touching the edge.
*You can post pictures! What a show off!
*
I'd like to hear feedback on the use of exterior trim materials for use today. Old school says redwood & cedar a must, but with so many options available what are the important factors?
My view is that as long as the final application will be paint, what lies beneath does not have to be the naturally weather resistant materials of old. I'm not against the use of redwood or cedar, however their costs makes for a search of options and simply the common sense of it all.
Whether using pine, Doug fir, or composites, as long as all sides are primed and sealants are used at each stage of application to prohibit water infiltration behind the stock, it seems to me, naturally water resistant materials are not mandatory.
ITEM #2
Pacific Wood Laminates Inc./ Clear Lam V-Rustic siding.
I am using this product and would like to hear from other contractors who are familiar with it and have witnessed how it has held up over time. Please describe application techniques and extra measures taken however not described in the tech data sheet. For example at the gable walls which have a roof to wall situation and where the siding meets the roof, I am holding the siding back one inch away from the roof surface and applying
i BONDO
at the edges to protect plywood end grain.
Appreciate the feedback, now off to the archives.