Ran into a strange situation today and would appreciate any comments.
I’m in the middle of remodeling the kitchens in a 6-unit apartment building. In one unit half the circuits are out and the electrician is called. He discovers a dead leg and goes back to the main panel to replace the breaker (hope I’m using the correct terminology here).
When he’s done he says, “This is setup is so bizarre.” Inside the apartment, there are 400 (!) amps worth of breakers in the panel- 16 20 amp, one 30 (water heater) and one 50 (stove). Outside at the main panel, there is a single 125 amp breaker. All 6 units are same configured the same way. .
So just out of curiousity he quickly maps the circuits and finds that about 8 of the 20 amp breakers are not connected to anything. Adding to the oddity, 3 of these breakers have the neutral attached to them (at least what appears to be the neutral- no black tape or anything).
At lunch we’re kicking around ideas. One person says this might have been designed for a commercial space before they chopped it up into 2-bedroom apartments. The layout, however- 3 units downstairs, 3 upstairs- as well as the building itself (front steps, etc.) looks like a residential building all the way. It was built in the 60s, and there are several similar buildings in the area.
So… any explanations for this setup? Has anyone ever come across anything like this? This is in Oakland, CA, by the way.
Thanks very much for reading through this.
Steve
Replies
They were plannng a lot of grow lights ?
Have you checked out the basement ?
; )
Or how about the neighbors...
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Hey Luka,Well, that's one possibility- designed for medicinal purposes only, of course :o)
some of those nutrals are the other half of 220v leg... it must have been for something..
What's confusing to me is that the electrician said you never have neutrals going into your breakers. Is this true?
in a perfect world otherwise thery're usually marked as a hot..
What is the 125 amp breaker for?
"So just out of curiousity he quickly maps the circuits and finds that about 8 of the 20 amp breakers are not connected to anything. Adding to the oddity, 3 of these breakers have the neutral attached to them (at least what appears to be the neutral- no black tape or anything)."
What was the matchig black wire connected to?
My guess is that at one time they had electric heat. Either baseboard or possibly ceiling radiant heat that operated off of 240.
"What is the 125 amp breaker for?"Sorry for not being more specific. The 125 amp is at the service entrance. There are 6 meters and six 125 amp breakers."What was the matchig black wire connected to?"No matching black wire visible. "My guess is that at one time they had electric heat. Either baseboard or possibly ceiling radiant heat that operated off of 240."Does 400 amps of breakers in each unit seem excessive? And not only excessive, but if you've got 125 amps at the service entrance, is 400 even allowed?
I guess your electrician would really panic if he were to come to my house - service entrance panel is fed by a 200 amp main breaker which in turn feeds two sub-panels.
If you go to all of the panels and add up marked amperages on all of my breakers ( 52 poles used ) the total marked amperage is 1035 -- 19 @ 15 + 23 @ 20 + 2 @ 25 + 2 @ 30 + 2 @ 40 + 2 @ 60 + 2 @ 100.
However, as Bill Hartmann said, the load calculation is well within the limit set forth in NEC. The marked amperage has little to do with the issue -- loading is what matters.
Think about it for just a minute -- 200 amp main panels are readily available with 42 poles, if you were to install 42 - 15 amp breakers in that panel the marked breaker amperage would be 630 amps or 300+% of the main breaker rating. It's the load that counts - not the marked amperage.
Unmarked white wires to breakers = shoddy work; probably old electric heat.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light!
I guess your electrician would really panic if he were to come to my house - service entrance panel is fed by a 200 amp main breaker which in turn feeds two sub-panels."
$hit, that's nothing. I have four subs in my house off a 200 amp main panel and three phase (generated) in the shop. If I had to guess, must be at least 100 breakers total. LOL.
WSJ
Likely the 20A single breakers, I assume the configuration is not obvious because the white conductors are not hooked up to half a two-pole breaker. On a two-pole breaker it would be a simple matter of a 240v circuit.
Sloppy, moderately unsafe and a violation of code to not have the 240v circuit on a two-pole breaker. Not the most egregious error I have ever seen. See this sort of thing regularly where jackleg electricians, their enthusiasm and confidence exceeding their talents and knowledge, work. The lack of a any re-marking of the white conductor is a very minor point. It technically violates code but anyone unknowledgeable or untrained enough to spot the true use of the white conductor in this case shouldn't be working in a panel.
These three 240v circuits in each panel, easily verified by tracking both conductors within the panel to the same cable or conduit, if the cable has been 'sleeved' for mechanical protection, may have fed, or feed, an air handler, AC receptacle/s, small heat strips, cook top, oven or similar loads. Any or all of which may have been abandoned or made obsolete by a later addition of other appliances.
Nothing, in and of itself, dangerous or even very unusual to have 400A of potential loads. Twenty space panels filled. Breakers are relatively cheap and some electricians, not without some merit, fill the panel and just leave some of the breakers as unused spares. Keeps the spares handy and positioned where they are less likely to be lost or damaged. They also serve the cover the buss bars from direct contact when the panel cover is off. Not that this is a major hazard for trained workers.
This can cause confusion if the panel schedule is not clearly marked and I don't normally go this route but it is not all that unusual. Which makes me wonder what sort of electrician you have. Is he trained and experienced or does he call himself an electrician because he owns a screwdriver and a pair of linemen's pliers.
"Likely the 20A single breakers, I assume the configuration is not obvious because the white conductors are not hooked up to half a two-pole breaker. On a two-pole breaker it would be a simple matter of a 240v circuit."Okay- I can understand this."Sloppy, moderately unsafe and a violation of code to not have the 240v circuit on a two-pole breaker. Not the most egregious error I have ever seen. See this sort of thing regularly where jackleg electricians, their enthusiasm and confidence exceeding their talents and knowledge, work. The lack of a any re-marking of the white conductor is a very minor point. It technically violates code but anyone unknowledgeable or untrained enough to spot the true use of the white conductor in this case shouldn't be working in a panel."There is a surplus of sloppy electrical (and everything else for that matter) work in Oakland. In some lower-end areas, non-licensed work is the norm."These three 240v circuits in each panel, easily verified by tracking both conductors within the panel to the same cable or conduit, if the cable has been 'sleeved' for mechanical protection, may have fed, or feed, an air handler, AC receptacle/s, small heat strips, cook top, oven or similar loads. Any or all of which may have been abandoned or made obsolete by a later addition of other appliances."Interesting. I think electric baseboards may be the answer here."Nothing, in and of itself, dangerous or even very unusual to have 400A of potential loads. Twenty space panels filled. Breakers are relatively cheap and some electricians, not without some merit, fill the panel and just leave some of the breakers as unused spares. Keeps the spares handy and positioned where they are less likely to be lost or damaged. They also serve the cover the buss bars from direct contact when the panel cover is off. Not that this is a major hazard for trained workers."This electrician was quoting the NEC and saying that your total breaker amps inside could only be 125% of the amperage of the breaker at the service entrance. "This can cause confusion if the panel schedule is not clearly marked and I don't normally go this route but it is not all that unusual. Which makes me wonder what sort of electrician you have. Is he trained and experienced or does he call himself an electrician because he owns a screwdriver and a pair of linemen's pliers."Well, he's pretty young (30 or so), but is licensed and has been working with this GC for about 4 years. He doesn't seem to have much experience in older buildings, and kept saying that's why he mostly does new construction.
Thanks very much for all the comments and information. I'll be taking a basic electrical course at a JC this summer and I'm really looking forward to it. I've also just started reading Cauldwell's "Wiring a House" and it's very interesting. Needless to say, I've got a long way to go to and it really helps to hear insights from those with so experience and knowledge. Much appreciated,Steve
Re: "Well, he's pretty young (30 or so), but is licensed and has been working with this GC for about 4 years. He doesn't seem to have much experience in older buildings, and kept saying that's why he mostly does new construction."Didn't mean to bust on him too much. IMO the term 'electrician' covers a wide range of expertise, or lack thereof. In this case it points out that 'new construction' is a world of difference from 'old work', service work and renovations. Given enough time and exposure he will pick up the finer points of old work also.
"This electrician was quoting the NEC and saying that your total breaker amps inside could only be 125% of the amperage of the breaker at the service entrance."No the demand.Check page 65 of "Wiring a House" - sizing the main pannel. And here http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/bh0019.asp
Heeeeey, waitaminnit !You mean I gotta have linesmans pliers too ????Why do they keep changing the rules ?This ain't fair man, I'll NEVER get to be a real electrician !!; )
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
soimebody at a latter date pulled the 2 pole breakers and put in a pair of singles using the old single 220 feed as a douple 120's....
the white never got tagged as a hot..
"soimebody at a latter date pulled the 2 pole breakers and put in a pair of singles using the old single 220 feed as a douple 120's..."If that is what happened, that is really a much more serious problem then remarking the whites.It means that the ground is being used as the return (neutral).
yup..
I really appreciate this discussion. I'll be back after work with a few comments.Thank you.Steve
could've "tagged" on yo a nutral from another circut..
Yikes! the possibilities are going from bad to worse!
To echo what Bill said again re: grounds being used as neutrals, I think I would be opening up a bunch of boxes to see what was what -- despair would begin the first time I found a bare wire hooked up to a neutral pole of some duplex, then the real fun would start.
Might consider turning off all of those "white wire breakers" and see what is off - I would begin my "box opening" activites at the dead boxes.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light!
Edited 5/25/2005 3:07 pm ET by JTC1
Edited 5/25/2005 3:14 pm ET by JTC1
> Might consider turning off all of those "white wire breakers" and see what is off -
Looking back to post #1 of this thread, he did check and found that those breakers had nothing on them.
-- J.S.
old 220 lines then..
I missed in the initial post that "they did not have anything on them" -- so where do you think the other ends of those white wires are?
All that is known from the post is - one end is on a breaker - the other end has to be somewhere. Capped off behind a wall ? Dead ended in a box?
I surely would not leave them turned "on" until I knew where the other end was!
Jim
Sounds like the breakers on the unconnected side should be left off then? I'm guessing that capping off wires behind walls and leaving the breakers hooked up is not standard procedure. When fixtures like baseboard heaters are permanently removed, what's the correct way to deal with the old wiring? Pull it out, disconnect it from the breaker and leave that breaker off? Thanks again for all the help. Steve
Turn the breaker off.Pull the breaker out of the box.Remove the wires from the breaker, the ground bus, and the neutral bus, and pull them completely out from the breaker box.(If you haven't worked "hot" before, then turn off the main breaker before doing this. If you want to work hot, but want to be extra careful, like some people who wear MY shoes.... Pull the breaker out of the box. Disconnect that wire. Cut the end off so that there is minimal bare copper left. Wrap that sucker with tape ANYWAY... Repeat with the nuetral. Then be very careful with the ground, to be sure it never contacts anything else in the box. Now you can carefully pull the whole wire from the box.)Remove the load. (Remove the heaters)Cut back both ends of the wires to where the wires are out of the way on both ends.I would consider leaving the wires instact, but rolled up on both ends, and sealed away. Could be an easy extra circuit in the future. Even so, you still should pull the wires completely out of the circuit breaker box.Optional to leave the breaker in, empty, and turned off, or to remove the breaker and place a seal plate in the face of the box. If you leave the breaker in, mark it as empty.By the way... I am NOT an electrician.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Well, you may not be an electrician, but it sure sounds like you know your way around a main panel. Thanks for the explanation. It'll be interesting to see how the electrician handles it.Steve
Be careful, IBEW may send the Black Helicopters and beat you up with their Kleins.
emOptional to leave the breaker in, empty, and turned off, or to remove the breaker and place a seal plate in the face of the box. If you leave the breaker in, mark it as pty
Leaving the breaker in place and marking it spare is the accepted way. Since most all of my work is commercial, and in conduit, we leave the wires in the box, taped together hot, nuetral and ground, labeled spare and wire tied to other wires away from the bus. On the other end we pull back to a j-box and label the wires as spares to distribution panel xyz.
I like your idea of removing the wire (romex) from the panel, and rolling it up. I think that I would hang a label card on it at that point, telling where the other end is located. The other end should be tucked into a j-box and labeled spare also, to keep the home inspectors from getting thier shorts in a bunch, when finding loose wires in the attic or crawl space.
Just sorting out the snakes nest of wires in a residential panel gives me gas. I can't for the life of me figure out why residential electrician can't figure out that "neatness counts". IBEW Barry can attest to the fact that sloppy work will keep an apprentice in the union from ever making journeyman. Want see an inspector smile? Soldier and label all the wires in a panel. He'll know you are a pro that takes pride in your work. Wire labels are cheap and printing out the panel legend is easy with a pc or electronic label maker.
Dave
Edited 5/26/2005 12:49 pm ET by DAVERICHESON
---Want see an inspector smile? Soldier and label all the wires in a panel. He'll know you are a pro that takes pride in your work. Wire labels are cheap and printing out the panel legend is easy with a pc or electronic label maker....Abso-freakin-lutely....
But in all the posts I never did catch where the Black wire associated with the mystery whites was...I.E. on another breaker for 220, or just plain not in the panel....
At our plant, after decades of accumulating layers of wiring (every new computer scheme required new wires), they finally established a policy that wiring is never abandoned -- it's pulled completely out.
Definitely leave the breakers turned off. Disconnect the wires and leave them neatly tucked and coiled back in the panel, with wire nuts on the ends. Don't cut the wires. They may come in handy some day.
-- J.S.