I am thinking of trimming out the new windows in my house with clear pine. I want the pine to remain natural, but as light as possible. I don’t want that rustic darkening you get after a number of years with pine. Any ideas about what product to use to keep it light?
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waterborne - take your pick. I'd lean on an acrylic on a window - durable and more flexible. Better if you get something with UV blockers in it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
We added on about 3 years ago. It is a dining room and kitchen. The ceiling is vaulted up the sides with an 8 foot flat. I put t&g pine on the ceiling and then took the same material and put it on the windows so it would match. Also put it on the walls as a wainscote.
Before I put the stuff on I stained it with a natural minwax stain and then sprayed 4 coats of high gloss lacquer. After I put it all up I filled the holes with a pine colored putty and then fine sanded the whole thing. You don't have to spray, you can just brush on some high gloss poyurethane.
The final coat was a high gloss polyurethane that I brushed on over a period of a week. Most of it was overhead and my arms got tired.
You can put poly over lacquer but not vice versa. Turned out beautiful. I have done this many times before and in 25 years have not found the finish to darken. I have some oak cabinets that I built and finished 16 years ago and they look great today.
Want some pictures of the pine?
James Hart
James, I would like to see some pictures. We should be ready to start working on our pine trim/baseboards/doors next week. Our plan was conditioner/natural stain/poly.
Due to time constraints, we are contemplating skipping steps 1 and 2, and just applying a lacquer/poly. We are also concerned about yellowing. Does the natural stain change the look of the wood that much? I would think it would enhance grain, but not color?
We will need to finish our windows also. Anyone have tips for how to apply poly to windows? Is a wipe-on better than brushing? How many coats?
Thanks from a long time lurking homeowner.
Hi. Some may disagree, but I've had great luck with the Minwax Polycrylic. Thats the waterbased stuff that's very easy to use. As far as yellowing, I guess I haven't noticed, but nothing I've used it on is all that old.
The polycrylic can be easily used on the windows, too, just using a 3'' sponge brush. Wipe on is OK, but it takes so many more coats, it may be more of a PITA.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I have used the Polycrylic as well, and another Brand that I cant remember the name, and have a job out with 14 gallons of StaysClear right now.
I think the wood under waterbased still darkens over time, but it doesnt yellow when you put it on like oil poly does. After it dries, it looks a lot like the color of the wood coming right off the planer. Water based does work great, the odor isnt to strong but still irritating after a bit. When Im working overhead in a cathedral or in rooms full of wood I always throw my mask on.
Also everyone, dont forget to read the safety label. Oil poly will give you central nervous system and brain damage, water poly will give you reproductive and other added problems based on the manufacturer. So dont think that because its waterbased that its safe.
Zendo and Hook..
Thanks for the tip on the polycrylic. Can this product be applied with a spayer as well?
The minwax site recommends brushing only. Is there an equivalent formulation that can be sprayed on?
Lil, I dont have a great answer for that I dont use a HVLP gun, I have an airless that I could push tar through if I was willing to clean it. Its a bit different in that its like 3000-3300psi at the tip compared to under 10, and I can put a 2ft fan tip on without compromising finish, but there is more overspray in an airless and more risk of injury.
Polycrilic I have brushed on with a decent quality synthetic brush. I use a 3 inch brush because it doesnt wear your wrist down. I can brush 12 hr days with water based and feel like doing it again the next day... only thing that bugs me about the waterbased is that they ask so much money for it. 100 acrylic paint isnt even close to the price, and clear acrylic glaze is half the price.
Yes, you can spray Polycrylic, I usually cut it 10% with clean H2O.
I've only sprayed it using a HP unit, but I'm sure HVLP will work fine.
I hope you can see the color and finish from these pictures. I threw in one of my entertainment center I built last spring. It is the same finish.
I would suggest using a natural stain on a piece of scrap. It will enhance the grain and color. On pine, I also spray two coats of sanding sealer. Sand between coats. Pine is a softer wood than most and the fibers tend to stand up more.
I use the HVLP system from Campbell Hausfeld.
James Hart
James,
What would be a brand name of lacquer that you would use on wood.
almost any brand of lacquer you can use on wood. What you have to ask yourself first is what you want it to do. What you want in a furniture piece is not necessarily the same you want for trim, or cabinets. Cabs often get a catalyzed (or pre cat) or conversion varnish finish. CAB Acrylics are popular too. Tough, durable - for a high abuse area. Furniture used to call nitrocellulose its bread and butter, but some shops have simply gone to all precat for everything. It does have a different look, but not substantial. I think the conversion finishes end up looking a little more plastic - like a poly can. And many require a vinyl sealer if the piece is stained. Trim here anyway is still nitro. Its durable, its easy, and it touches up. Big plus. But if you're walking a house with a hose, you don't want to have to do it three or four times. A high build lacquer helps to alleviate that. Sherwin has one that does some amazing things with one coat of sealer and one of the lacquer. Deep and rich finish. And there's waterborne formulas which do the same thing. They've come a long way in a short time."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
almost any brand of lacquer you can use on wood.
There are nitrocellulose lacquers that aren't compatible with wood. Found that out after I sprayed my first kitchen for the idiots I used to work for. The solvent didn't flash off, went into the wood instead and prevented the film from fully setting.
Looked good, just didn't have any water resistance, more like shellac. Same lacquer they'd been using for the last 30 houses, which all water-spotted badly. A different sanding sealer solved the problem.
Always check with the manufacturer about applicability. They want you to have a good experience (and buy more). People I spoke with, RM, were horrified at the use.
Problem with catalyzed finishes is that you're pretty much obsoleting the piece when the finish is degraded. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
thank you for the thorough answer. I guess what my next question is, Is the lacquer helping to keep the wood lighter, or what is your reasoning for using it rather then going straight to poly.
I dont have a ton of experience with clear finishes I have just always done the same routine when asked for a clear.
I could go look at Lac examples at a paint store if its just a different look. From your last note I kind of just got the idea that its richer or something.
I have also just been reading Bob Flexners book "Understanding Wood Finishes" which has a ton of info.
keeping the wood lighter is going to depend more on whether or not you use a waterborne vs solvent based finish than it is on lacquer vs poly. Those distinctions refer primarily to what the specific resin base the finish is derived from. They both vary, absolutely, in how much protection they give and to what. Flexners book I think is very good at covering some of that, as is Michael Dresdner, as is Jeff Jewitt. Almost (key word) any solvent based finish will amber over time, and some begin that way. Most of your solvent borne lacquers begin with a little of that in it, which for the most part is a bonus, inasmuch as "warmth" is what people are looking for in wood.
The waterborne finishes are designed to be clear, as are most of the CAB Acrylics. Some even use the terminology water white or non yellowing on the can. The pros and cons of the waterbornes, circa today, are thus, in a nutshell: waterbornes apply easily and are easy to clean up. Lower surface tension makes them more prone to running on vertical surfaces. Application technique matters a little more than lacquer, as waterborne finishes can bubble easily. Spraying through a cup gun on a nice cool humid day (which is a recipie for disaster with nitro) is a wonderful experience with Polycrylic. They won't yellow, ergo, they don't impart the warmth to the wood that many seek, and can even cool things off by making them look a little bleached. They don't bleach, of course, but it's a perception. Try it on a nice clean stick of maple. It looks deathly frigid.
But waterbornes can be tinted with your run of the mill latex paint tints for the most part, which makes doing so easy and economical, so if you want the non yellowing but not the white, a couple of drips of burnt umber or reddish brown can go a long way towards keeping the trim from looking frigid. I haven't used one yet that liked an airless sprayer. Doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't found it. I am a particularly good fan of Kem Aqua, a high grade waterborne lacquer, and prefer a pressure pot over everything else I've tried for that. If you're doing a lot of trim, it might be worth it, but it's not sold in singles, and the initial outlay for a 5 of sealer and a 5 of topcoat is about 3 bills. And a learning curve.
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Jeff Jewitt also wrote a book (undoubtedly sold by Taunton) on waterbornes. That might be worth your ten bucks to look at. Like many other contributors to these pubs, he is held in fairly high regard as a guru of his trade, and he does have his own forum specifically for finishing questions, which he periodically answers personally. Believe thats http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
Dresdner has a different take, last I knew. If you were really perplexed by something, for a $10 donation to his new spray toys fund, he'd personally respond to you regarding just about any finish question you had. I did that once more out of curiosity and the awe of the semi famous, but I have to say it was most worthwhile, he's a super decent guy to talk to, and he didn't limit his response to a one time deal. We went back and forth until the issue was successfuly resolved. Worth it.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I started using lacquer about 25 years ago. I have used many, many brands. The one that I prefer is DEFT. On the can it says that you can not spray it but I called the manufacturer and they said you can. I use it all the time now.
I use a HVLP system from Campbell Hausfeld. The DEFT takes a little more time to dry[about 20 minuets] but it is a superior finish to any lacquer I have ever used.
The only reason I use a polyurethane for the topcoat is when the final coat has to be applied inside with everything in place. Otherwise the lacquer is a great topcoat.
James Hart
Pictures would be great. I am leaning toward polyacrilic.
Thanks
solo
Sent some pictures to lilypad. Hope they help you see the pine with a natural stain.
James Hart
I made a big mistake with pine
and that was to do any putty work before any sealer. I have been told the real step is one coat of sealer and then putty and sand , and then more sealer
the mistake showed with "halo's" around the putty where it is lighter
hadnt noticed that problem with fir or other dark woods, but it caught me off gaurd wtih pine
other than that we have 4 coast of polycrylic and it all looks great
Edited 11/28/2004 11:43 am ET by Isamemon
Longterm there is no way of keeping the wood clear, you will need some form of UV protection. There are so called uv-blockers on the market but after a few years the protection will fade away. I would go for a compromise and take the lightest stain acceptable to you and top it with a semigloss clear finish.
Thanks for the replyI think I'm going to go with the waterbased polycrylic finish with a small amount of tint (color) in it from Benjamin Moore. I'll try and remember to send a picture when complete.peace