Yikes!
Please see my thread;
CLIENT TROUBLE! What do I do?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=31251.18
to get up to speed.
First off the client turned out to be a hysteric. Compltetly freaked out about the door threshold being leveled with shims. Even after speaking on the phone with a comapny rep she still held it against me. There were several other problems and I got the brunt of them.
It turns out there’s just no dealing with some people. I did my part didn’t yell or raise my voice in anyway but held firm my position. I scored points with the general by having it all smoothed over by the time he arrived so all’s well that ends well.
Also the biggest trouble came when I challenged her salesman at HD about why isn’t he in the feild making 3x the money if he knows it all. For some reason that set her off defending this guy like it was her baby! She was actually in tears! Later on when I inquired about an additional door that’s 3 weeks late I suggested she ask her “buddy”-in a very nice way- and she said she did a week ago and he never called back!
I let that slide and packed my tools.
Thanks for the support!
N
Replies
Notrix,
So that door three weeks out, you going to put that one in too?
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Well..
I still represent the general and no one gets paid till the entire job is done so.....I'm thinkin' and hopin' this was an added job in which case the answer is a resounding NO! If not I'll have to. That's why I kept my cool today as there is still a possibilty of dealing with this person and my actions can effect others.
N
What a nightmare. Sometimes if a person dosn't want to be convinced of something even showing them a smoking gun type of proof won't work, because all the smoke in Hell won't convince these people!
This custumer is a problem waiting to happen. Just because you got away from this wicked witch of the west once without being burned too bad, doesn't mean you can get away with this twice. STAY AWAY FROM THIS PERSON!! Let her go postal and have a meltdown on some other poor schmuck.
What ever her problem is, you as a door man cannot fix it (maybe a good mental health expert could.)
Sometimes, all of us in the trades get burned in this fashion, but then every once in a while you'll come across a real class act and this person more than makes up for the few bad apples.
Good Luck
Cork in Dallas
Sounding more convoluted as it goes forward.
If she is buying the doors and telling you how to install them, she is the generall contractor. Where is this guy that wears that hat in all this? I stand between clients and craftsmen so that they can get their work doen right without worrying about getting squirted on..
Excellence is its own reward!
"Where is this guy that wears that hat in all this? I stand between clients and craftsmen so that they can get their work doen right without worrying about getting squirted on."
Thank you piff, guys like me appreciate that in a GC. When a client starts harping to me about stuff, it sours the job and the job is liable to suffer. I happen to have an HO like that right now. Changed the stain color of the kitchen cabinets twice. I heard through the grape vine he wants to change it again. Only problem is, the cabinets are installed. If he asks me about it, he's going to be disappointed.
A good GC would head that off in the pass and not bother the sub or craftsman.
I earn all these grey hairs!.
Excellence is its own reward!
i think you guys are misreading george... don't you think he just meant it is to our advantage to bring the customer around to our point of view ?.. and much as i dislike the free advice from the HD.. i would bite my tongue and not bad-mouth him to the customer..
as previously stated...attacking him is the same as attacking her.. think what you want .. but most times discretion is the better part of valorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I`m with Mike here....I think you all are taking George a bit too literally. Doing what we do for a living, we already know that the customer is rarely right.....but you don`t have to make them feel that way.
Were a customer to tell me "so and so said it should be done THIS way", I`d love to tell em where to stuff it after asking why they hired me....while in reality I`d simply explain why my method was much better.
Explaining that the only way to warranty the work I do is to do it properly usually brings them around. Tell a customer you`ll do it any way THEY want you to do it....guarentee them if done improperly you`ll be back to fix it at their expense....they wont be explaining to you what the guy at HD said.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
screw that Mike....
I'm all for making friends....even those I just need to feel that way till I'm outta their mad house.....
but when someone starts yelling and screaming....
well...lets just say Jeff don't let many people yell and scream at him!
And I don't yell and/or scream back...but if they are off base....I'll be the first in line to carefully and fully explain just how far off base they are off and give them a fully detailed explaination as to how why....point by point.
And if the name of some HD flunky was called into play...he'd get the full service job too.
Customers aren't always right......check writer's not always right....
and anyone that live that way......well.....just ain't got no beltloops!
Just might be a reason I'm self employeed.......
when I bartended...it was my bar...don't care who owned it.....if it's my a$$ going to jail....we'll play by my rules....
now...it's my jobsite....
don't care who owns it.
we'll play by my rules......everyone fights nice....no yelling.....
and we'll all get along just fine.
Or...I walk.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
If you say it right, you can tell someone their dogs eats ####, and have them smiling at you.
If you're really good, you can tell them they're on the same diet, and they won't even know it..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm absolutely stunned by this thread!!
Not the subject, but the extreme divergence in opinions, approaches to the problem, and most significantly, the total ignorance of ability in dealing with customer relations by some posters.
First, the good:
J.D., normally I really disagree with many of your non-work related posts. But your post here as well as in another recently made are simply brilliant. They earned you my respect. (Of course, I'll still disagree with your other opinions, but now I'll respectfully disagree.) You have an impressive business sense.
Jeff Buck is another that I thought was lost during a colonoscopy (like ottergator's jokes). I still may not like his answer or position on the subject, but his point about fighting nice speaks HUGE!! It also should open the blinds to some others that the customer in question may simply be suffering from a medical condition that one or more of the following have themselves admitted to. If we expect compassion from others about our illnesses, why is that compassion not extended to our customers whom display similar symptoms?
Piffin speaks volumes about dealing with people. Just as he says in post #28, there are ways of handling these situations that simply turns lemons into lemonade. When we learn those skills, our lives and jobs become so much easier and rewarding. Further note the tone and direction of his posts (not only in this thread). He does not turn the conversation into personal attacks. He knows that the first one that makes a jab, loses. His approach to such difficulties is simply realizing there is a misunderstanding somewhere. And he then attempts to correct the misunderstanding without throwing gasoline on the fire. Emulate him.
The not-so-good:
Teconail and mad dog, when you guys finally realize the world does not revolve around you, I'll bet that not only will your income increase, but so will your satisfaction from your career.
Wet head, I just don't know what to think. The value and insight you have to offer this forum has been repeatedly been appreciated by many. But despite those contributions, the times that you come into the discussion like a drunken bull in the china shop or so secretive about things destroys all of the good you have done. You obviously know dam well why you've been shoved into a job where you cannot interact with the public. Your posts here broadcast the same. Why do you find it so important to act like a cyberbully? I'll tell you why - to make you feel better. Now what type of a person goes around beating up on others in order to make himself feel better? What kind of a person belittles another to lift themselves higher (in their own mind)? It's quite obvious that some here have taken a liking to you. It's also obvious that they know something that the rest of us don't. Why do you find it so important to make enemies than friends? I really want to know what these other guys see in you. I honestly want to change my opinion towards you, but posts like these you've made get in the way. Once you give up this "ME, ME" attitude and start asking yourself what you can do to make the world a better place, you'll find those "Me, Me" issues will be satisfied.
CAG, for a smart young person with worlds of potential, you certainly talk like you're "Dumb" in this thread. Only a dumb person would call another "dumb." May I suggest using Piffin as a mentor? But then he also says that everybody makes a stupid post from time to time. Maybe this was yours. I want to overlook this one.
And then GeorgeR and Bill Hartman. Some of you may not like what they have to say, but what they say is true. Listen to them and learn from them. I'll also bet that these guys learned their lesson the hard way. And they are being most gracious in sharing that lesson.
My two cents: A disagreement like our original poster described needs to be considered an opportunity. An opportunity to show how much one knows his trade. An opportunity to display quality "people skills." And most importantly, a terrific marketing opportunity. Go back and reread Piffin's and J.D's posts. By solving this small problem to the client's satisfaction, one gains an unpaid salesperson. Imagine all of the good words and referrals that can result.
Those that still disagree, may I suggest taking that Dale Carnegie course. It's a lot easier getting through life by getting along than fighting tooth and nail every step of the way or by creating devils where they don't exist.
If that doesn't work, time will. Shortly the economic conditions that have fostered the "holier-than-thou" attitude by some in the construction trades will change. These conditions that have resulted in an extremely stimulative building market will oscillate into an equally extremely restrictive market. Obviously we have a number of participants here that either have forgotten or didn't experience the early 80's. May I suggest preparing for that second career now?
random,
Sorry, I don't beat around the bush and I tend to call things like I see them, I have seen GeorgeR give enough "advice" around here and preach his obvious disdain for carpenters or trades people in general, I'm truly surprised he didn't give his standard answer of "you need an engineer" to look at the door and tell you how to support it.
I can't see what George is saying as being true, the customer is always right line is bunk, should the customer always be treated fairly? Yes, but that doesn't mean that they should be led through a job thinking they are correct when in fact they have no idea what they are talking about, that would serve neither the customer nor the tradesman any good.
There is a right way to tell someone they are wrong, and the easiest way to do it in my experience is to just come out and say I don't agree and here is why I think that. Not in a mean conformational way, but as polite as possible.
What good does it serve to allow a person to believe the sky is red when in fact it's not?
I'll agree with you that it is a lot easier getting along with people then not, but I do not think Notix handled the situation poorly nor did he disrespect the client. And I'll stand by my previous post.
Sorry if that disappoints youNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Here's the trick... make them think the correct idea was their original idea. Had a call several years ago where I had to dig up septic tank. I scoped it out and started to dig. Old man came out quite huffy because I was digging in the wrong place. He KNEW the tank was 30 feet over. I KNEW better. I not only got him to let me keep on digging but get this... when I dead centered the inlet cover on the tank in MY spot he came out to look. This was his comment, "By golly we were right on weren't we?"
We? You betcha. Because I was digging in his spot. Because I made it his. But I still laugh over the story!
I will consider what you have to say. But let me correct a few misconceptions.
I am in a position to deal with the public on a regular basis. But not nearly enough to suit me. The number one compliment I get from clients, friends, colleagues, etc. is for my excellant customer skills. I just turned down an offer to go into full time sales and customer relations for a local plumber. He keeps asking me to come work for him because he knows how I am with this.
I treat the customer as if they were always right. I could go on and on here but let me just say that what Piffin said is my normal manner of dealing with customers.
So you don't like me? Fine. Go your way and I'll go mine. My life does not revolve around pleasing anonymous people online.
Which brings me to my next point. When I see raw BS here I generally pull no punches. George showed he has a rotten attitude towards tradespeople. He also spouted off BS in general. I was harsh on him. He deserved it.
I am a little curious what you mean by claiming I am secretive? Only thing I can think of is that when I see BS spouted I point it our without giving a lot of correct advice in it's place. Maybe I think this person has no business being involoved in his project due to general incompetance. Maybe I realize this person is being a danger to himself and others. Maybe I give my best advice privately when asked for it. Well, golly! If you don't like my positions on this stuff what can I say? Maybe we have differing views on how that should all work? Is your opinion the only annointed one?
I highly suggest you take a Dale Carnegie class. Based on your post I see where it could really benefit you. I took it. I lived on rice and beans for 12 weeks so I could afford it. I took it serious. Still have a long ways to go in many areas. I do not profess perfection. That is why I invest many hours and many dollars working on myself.
Don't work to hard on liking me. Anyone that thinks George's post was gracious probably is not someone I need a close relationship with. Life is too short. Live your life and I'll live mine. Your basic assumptions about me as a person are so flawed and so far from the truth that it will make it diificult to have a positive relationship with each other. Cyberspace and BT is big enough for both of us.
I thank you for this blessing, Father.
Edited 6/5/2003 7:48:32 AM ET by Mad Dog
Ahem.
Somebody's been a little generous with me.
I see Georges postings here as half serious and half egomaniac because of the attitude he displays. I never know if he's tryiung to give sound advice or trying to stir the pot and seed a fight.
In this case of his statemnent that "The customer is always right" I use that same as an operational attitude when dealing with clients but not as an actual fact which it clearly is not. I think this difference is why there has been discord surronding the statement combinmed with the aura he brings witrh his presence. Perhaps it is an unintentional consequence of his engineering personality.
WWW is a bit of a loose canon on deck sometimes and not shy about saying that #### stinks when he smells it. but he's also a great go-to guy when you want to know how to stop it from smelling.
Flush and turn on the fart fan.
Have a great day guys!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I hope I reach your level of class someday.
"The customer is always right"
I prefer to look at it like this: "The customer isn't always right - but they're always the customer". It takes months do devolop a good customer, but only seconds to lose one. The good news is that we'll be out of them in no time.
You guys are beating a dead horse. Why not agree to disagree....
because the horse is stinking up the place.
My two cents: A disagreement like our original poster described needs to be considered an opportunity. An opportunity to show how much one knows his trade. An opportunity to display quality "people skills." And most importantly, a terrific marketing opportunity. Go back and reread Piffin's and J.D's posts. By solving this small problem to the client's satisfaction, one gains an unpaid salesperson. Imagine all of the good words and referrals that can result.
Good stuff. I agree. But that is not what George appeared to be saying. If I thought for one minute that this was his message I would have been OK with it.
If that doesn't work, time will. Shortly the economic conditions that have fostered the "holier-than-thou" attitude by some in the construction trades will change. These conditions that have resulted in an extremely stimulative building market will oscillate into an equally extremely restrictive market. Obviously we have a number of participants here that either have forgotten or didn't experience the early 80's. May I suggest preparing for that second career now?
I don't get what you are saying. Skilled craftsmen have always been in demand. I lived through the early 80's. My dad was a plumber. We were always busy. But then he was one of the best. Economic conditions do not change the skill level required by craftsmen.
What do you mean by a holier-than-thou attitude?
If saying that 97% of DIYers have no business messing with gas lies and appliances is holier-than-thou then I wear the label proudly. If you mean that someone thinks they are a superior person because they are skilled in a construction trade, then you are right.
The folks that are in the trades for just a buck or for an ego trip all dissappear as soon as the water gets a bit choppy. The rest of us just grin and go on.
One more thing... may I humbly suggest that you back off on the lecturing here while you are still a newbie? It would make you look a wee bit more credible. Internet etiquette does not look kindly upon a newbie jumping all over the regulars whether they have warts or not.
thank you so much for the free psychoanalysis ! its amazeing how you can do that with just a few typed words, now its my turn you were born with a silver spoon in the your mouth. never had a real job in your life. you have no real life experience and you were educated beyond your intellect . have a nice day!
notice he cut and run?
No. I simply had my say and allowed you yours. What else is there except the future?
I asked you some questions. You made some pretty assumptions accusations. Do you have the balls to answer my questions now? Or to admit you were wrong in your assumptions?
Or are you like so many trolls... just here to stir up trouble?
Edited 6/7/2003 2:28:38 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
I didn't read his dissertation that way, WHW.
He was sharing an opinion and you have to admit that you came across pretty strong, even if the HO lady deserved the thoughts you directed her way.
I seem to remember one of the things he mentioned about you that you questioned was something about secretive ways. All that is, is where sometimes you, like any of us regulars here, say something that is not fully explained but that other rewgulars understand - the wink and a nod thing. Maybe he's noticed it more with you and he made a projection based on that appearance.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
You obviously know dam well why you've been shoved into a job where you cannot interact with the public.
That was a personal insult and he was dead wrong. For a newbie I suggest it was also presumptious. Any net-savvy person knows you don't waltz into a forum and insult regulars without getting your a$$ jumped... even if the regular is wrong. This person is a rank newbie.
If this person has attended a Dale Carnegie course like they claim they have... then they sure failed to use anything they were supposed to learn there in their original thread.
Bottom line... I don't want friends like this. I have too many offline friends to want to be friends with a person who comes in making nasty remarks with their observations. Screw them. I can't believe you are taking this jerk's side. Whatever.
(I do take your comments about me coming on strong as something to consider and not just siding with this newbie)
Then you said...
even if the HO lady deserved the thoughts you directed her way.
What and when are you referring to? I am lost here.
Yeah, I guess that WAS a personall attack. I didn't go back to analyse the whole thing.
The lady HO was the one who listened to the HD clerk instead of the door installer in the first place so she deserved criticism.
not taking sides, just listening to the peacemaker within for a change..
Excellence is its own reward!
OK, I understand now. I hadn't responded to the original question. Only to the knee-jerk post by the newbie so I was baffled. I have worked with far worse than this lady. Not pleasant but you can usually turn them into your best advertisers.
I haven't been to the Carnegie course...
but have been sent to any other sales course ya can name thru my years in sales before I landed back in the trenches.
I can butter up most any customer I want......but the point is....
some don't deserve it.
And some will just never take to the taste of the butter. Plenty easy to use catch phrases like...."turn their frown upsidedown"....
and "make a negative a postive".......
but catch phrases don't always work in the real world.
Some people are just a-holes. Plain and simple. Never gonna be happy till the job's free and ya add everything else on their list.
So......let's all take a deep collective refreshing breath..and...say....
Screw Them!
Life's too short to go around getting beat up......"Always Nice" guys finish dead last.
I didn't need that first sales course to tell me things generally work better when customers like me......
Some of this stuff ya can fig'ger out on yer own.
Not that I'm disagreeing with what ya interpreted my reply to be......I couldn't fig'ger if ya liked it or not?
Either way....I'm right!
For me.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I started to agree with you until I read his post again. It was the last sentence that did it for me. Pretty preachy. People like that can just shove it into a dark and stinky place.
That would make him a mechanical engineer, wouldn't it?.
Excellence is its own reward!
mebbe he'll pop his head up again and 'splain himselfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the update - Always nice to hear how something turned out. Glad it turned out reasonably well.
One thing I wonder about after reading this story - I wonder what her HD buddy REALLY told her. Could be that what he said and what she heard were vastly different.
Sex is hereditary. If your parents never had it, chances are you won't either.
Just one more reason to avoid Home Depot at all costs.
Sidenote....doing a rehab on an old house...homeowner acting as GC. I gave a price for kitchen cabinet installation...Home Depot came in two grand less than me....I asked if HD was including everything I was. HO claimed they were...I told em to go for it. Two weeks later installation is about half complete......waiting on countertops and mouldings. HD designed cabinet layout but did not include filler to hold cabs off wall....installer never picked this up....doors at wall do not open. I stand to make some good money correcting this botch job when all is said and done....I just feel bad for homeowner. Tiny kitchen...shoulda gone so smoothly. Its a shame HOs are so willing to accept the word of these orange smocked schmucks.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
You need to fire your general contractor.
When I am the GC, I will not let a homeowner take a beef up with a subcontractor or one of my employees, and it is written into the contract. They can talk nicely, and answer little questions, but if my people are at all uncomfortable, they come to me and I then notify the homeowner that any further discussion will be held strictly with me. It is a hard and fast rule and has kept the problems and confusion to a minimum, and my subs happily willing to come to the next job.
This guy better step up to the plate and take some of the heat, and diplomatically convince the homeowner that an installer, and he himself know more about putting in a simple door than she and her boyfriend at the orange store of construction information.
Sounds like a shaky pay arrangement but I guess we've all been there too.
This was a unique situation.
I'm toying with the idea of getting my lisence. The GC let me work out my part of the deal but he signed the contract. I volonteered to handle it all when I knew there was a problem. The HO was quite nice on Saturday when she first learned of the "problem" said wait till Tuesday. When I got there she was from another planet. In the midst of it I excused myself and called the GC for advice, went back in and got it under control. The GC dropped his other task and was there in 30 minutes to take control of the other issues that were not my concern.
The GC is a good guy who actually paid me my part before I was done-to help with mving expenses-when the HO won't be paying him till the tile is down.
We're at an easier job today<G>
Thanks for the advice all,
N
I think you failed in handling your client.
In my business clients are always right, tradesmen are always wrong.
Your job as a GC or tradesman is to persuade the client that your way is sufficient. You should not be critical of the salesperson. (It could be argued that he was right.)
---
Finally, coming out here to seek support is fine. To be critical of the client here is not.
to say the client is allways right in this business is ludicrous,if that were true why are thea calling us?when you go see your doctor to work on your body are you allways right?same difference.notrix I hope you dont have to go back and hang that other door. its not worth working for people like this, no matter what you do she will be bad mouthing your work long after the job is done. I had a job one time to change out a vanity when I went to remove the pea trap i put my thumb throu it when I told her I needed to go get a new one she said ther was nothing wrong with that pea trap untill you started messing with it! and it just got better from there, total night mare. anyway she called a few days latter for some other project and I said no thanks. I live in a small town and to my knowlege she is the only one that bad mouthes my work. best of luck to
I agree. I feel like putting George R on ignore because of this. The customer is HARDLY EVER RIGHT. This is not Burger King. We aren't talking about a 6.27 order, and just because they see This Old House put up a garage in a half an hour, and with radiant in floor hydronic, does not qualify them to be right.
Ludicrous, very well used here.
You need to read ALL of George's message.
The customer is ALWAYS RIGHT!
The customer is the one that writes the check, RIGHT!
The customer is the one that will bad mouth the tradesman around town, RIGHT!
He did not say that the customer knows what they are talking about. What he said was that they where always right. If you don't belive me, just as the customer and they will tell you clearly that they are RIGHT, right.
Then he added this which no one seemed to read.
"Your job as a GC or tradesman is to persuade the client that your way is sufficient. You should not be critical of the salesperson. (It could be argued that he was right.)"
Bill,
Like the others I would disagree that the customer is always right. Some of your other points are valid however.
One thing the customer is entitled to is having it their way. But they should spec what that is prior to the contract being signed. If you install a product to standard conventions (very vague, I know) and the customer wants it their way, they may be expected to pay for the change.
Very few customers will go out of their way to speak highly of a tradesman. They expect perfection and for you to go the extra mile. This is the trap that most tradesman fall into. Allow enough in your bid to go the extra mile every step of the way. People will say that your expensive, but worth it. This will lead to other quality customers. Go in low because you need the work and you will either lose your but or run the risk of bad feedback.
To reiterate, the customer is not always right but they should be made to feel like they are.Tom
Here's the key to a successful project... the customer is not always right but they should be made to feel like they are. Do it right, or do it twice.
How true. I am going through that right now. DanT
The problem is that George also thinks the tradesman is always wrong! That taints his other points.
"The problem is that George also thinks the tradesman is always wrong! That taints his other points."
I agree.
I was think about this last night. And then again read Rumbles comments.
From what I had seen of your post in the past I was surprised at how you responded. But I see that you really where responding to George and not to the general topic.
I have notice this about forums. In 3 months a similar question will come up and the tone of it will go in a completely different direction. That is caused by two things. First tone of the intial message and then people will start piling on telling him that he is right or wrong. And secondly someone will pickup on some detail, in this case George's message, and then the thread will go to that detail, even if it has little to do with the orginal problem.
---------------------------------------------
In someways this gets to the orignal problem.
When I did see Georges comment about the tradespeople, I ignored it an looked at the truth in his message. Now, maybe because I am not in construction trades, it was easy for me not to take that personally.
Which to back to the orignal problem he was having the same problem.
He is so hung up on the fact that this mis-information was coming from a clerk at HD that he could not focus on solving the problem. That problem was doing a good job and get the customer to accept that.
Once the HD guy spoke that "bell could not be unrung" and challanging the HD's guy "information" is a waste of time.
I have EXCELLANT as seeing when other people do this and getting than back on track of solving the end problem.
BUT I AIN'T WORTH #### WHEN I END UP IN THE SAME BOAT.
Edited 6/5/2003 10:12:09 AM ET by Bill Hartmann
First off if George is and Engineer as I gather I just gotta see some of his "customer is always right" projects<G>
Now the customer is always right if thay want to put in pink carpets and black walls but far from it if thay want to have you frame a house with 8d nails and leave out all those expensive headers etc...
As contractors and those of us who represent contractors it's are first resposibilty to make sure the job is done right. If our walls framed with 8d nails and no headers on the openings collapse saying the owner wanted it that way will not work in court. I'd also like to see the inspectors face as it's explained "the customer is always right".
Once again this is a case of getting advice from HD when they are not on site. Up to this point I had a good relationship with the HO, kept everything clean explained indetail how the flow would go, never left the site till they were satisfied and understood what would be happening next. We have adapted our schedule to accomidate her whims with other trades persons ( pooor devils!). The more I think about it the more i see HD as the villian in this situation. One of the first rules I was told is don't bad mouth the other trades as you can't be sure what's happening and it's not your place. Asking for qualifications is not bad mouthing. If said HD ace knew his stuff there is no way he would make definite remarks like he did and in a short period of time ruin the 2 weeks of good will I had built up.
Hey I gotta get to work!!
No! a different site!
No HO on this site! YES!!!!!!!!
N
Know the difference between an introverted engineer and an extroverted engineer?
The extroverted engineer looks at YOUR shoes while he is talking to you.
Now that I know George is an engineer it will be easier to ignore him. I have great respect for good enigneers. And I have nothing but contempt for the bad ones. How do you tell a bad one? They think all tradespeople are always wrong. They think they are God. They are arrogant jerks.
PS. Why are German engineers so much better than those in the USA? Our engineers are pathetic compared to the ones from Germany when it comes to heating applinces, etc. Try to service an average American boiler. Then try the same on a German boiler. Then ask yourself why did it take 30 minutes on the American boiler and only 7 minutes on the German boiler?
Just my "why do engineers think they are so special when they often do such a pathetic job" thoughts.
Edited 6/5/2003 11:41:52 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
I agree that German engineering is often better than NAmerican, for products, anyway. But if you've ever dealt with a German company, you'll know that their philosophy is, "we design it; you use it. you use it how we tell you to. and not one bit different. you don't know anything. we know everything. just do what we say". This makes a nice counterpoint to the ongoing "customer is always right" thread.
"Now that I know George is an engineer it will be easier to ignore him. I have great respect for good enigneers. And I have nothing but contempt for the bad ones. How do you tell a bad one? They think all tradespeople are always wrong."
Have to disagree. They are just jealous. I have to work with [outside] engineer's all the time. Can't tell you how many probably entered their respective field thinking that they were going to "build" things. The most common comment I often hear is "you guys get to do all the fun stuff."
Jon
"you guys get to do all the fun stuff."
LOL
I've heard that comment too as they watched my butt crawl into a dank dark spider infested hole. Are you sure they weren't being facetious???
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Excellence is its own reward!
reminds me of the time I had an apprentice ask to do a NASTY crawl space job. I kept telling him I would do it. Turns out he wanted to prove to himself he had what it took to be a plumber. So I let him. Inside I was VERY happy to let him do it.
24" x 24" by 35' long crawl area out of a tiny dug out basement under a busy drugstore with soda fountain. restrooms were in the back of the store and drain line followed this dug out path to the basement before dropping undergound. It was all rotten CI that had been leaking for months before it was found. Nasty of the nastiest.
Been there, done that. Wish I had pictures.
Excellence is its own reward!
Got a great laugh out of your crawling in the hole post. Reminded me when I got overtime on a Saturday. Got my assignment and the other men on job started laughing. I wondered "how come these fellas are laughing." Turns out they saved the nasty stuff for some poor schmuck looking to get overtime to get temporarily assigned to their job on a Saturday. Befor I knew it I was spending a very cold morning laying on my back on cold concrete, in a mud puddle, stuffing the top half of my body into a small hole reframing heavy gauge studs and track in an old weather decayed wall. The place was invested with dozens of large insects crawling all over me(to this day I still don't know what those nasty little critters were,) all the time wishing to God I was any place but here!
Glad to find out I'm not the only one who's done that been there.
Great Story
Cork.
Reading of all these wonderful things makes me glad that I'm retired! One thing that is very important in dealing with ignorant HO's is that the name of the game is get paid. Like the jaywalking pedestrian you're just as dead right or wrong
well put shorty I wish I could retire!
> coming out here to seek support is fine. To be critical of the client here is not.
I don't think the poster was unreasonable. I'm not in the trade, but it seems to me that the Breaktime folks who live it are entitled to swap a few stories about tough customers. Everyone learns, and it's a way to find out how the situation could have been handled better.
I don't know what business you're in, but "the customer is always right" isn't universally realistic. There's a real challenge to handling the situation where the customer thinks they're right and they may not be. Maybe the customer IS right. Maybe they're a jerk. I've seen more than a few good discussions on Breaktime where these situations got sorted out.
Pete
May I assume you are a lawyer?
Your attitude is so despicable that the words which apply are banned here.
If you are a GC I guarantee all your subs hate your guts. Ever notice the slight ammonia smell in your Mountain Dew when you visit the job site? Ever notice that the cream in your coffee was a little sticky after you set your cup down on the job site? I wouldn't do it but I would enjoy watching it done to a jerk like you.
People like you s**k big time.
You're DumbNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
"I think you failed in handling your client.
In my business clients are always right, tradesmen are always wrong.
I couldn't disagree more. Not sure what business your in but few HO's are adept at construction else they would do it themselves. I'll reinterate I didn't insult the HD salesman but asked his qualification against mine and why he would opt for a $10-$15 hr job when he'd be making closer to $30 in the field. I'll probably not try that approach again despite it's painfully clear logic. Also take note this same salesman is no help on an order with his dept. that's several weeks over due-has no answers and won't return calls, unless it's to brag about what an ace carpenter he is.
But that is all besides the point.
If you have a car problem do you ask the guy at Pep Boys what he thinks it is then go to the mechanic telling him what his business is? That's what your sayng. The fact that I with @15 years in the field have decided that shims are the best way to level a threshold, and that I am the only one with all the facts and it is I who will ultimatly be resposible for it make me right. The HO on this occation was confused. Do you make all your decisions based on your clients experience or lack ther of? Just what sort of business are you in?
Face it it's a game of confidence. Something got in this HO's head and she lost confidence in me. She proceeded to lose face when I was forced to have the factory rep explain to her I was right and in fact the way I chose was recommended. She now has in her mind that these paint grade doors are stain grade and will have them stained. Luckily I have treated them as such, but as a result I can't finish the job because she also claims I talked her mother into trim she doesn't like and wants different so that has been removed while she motors back to HD. I'll let her be right with this one, but as soon as I'm done those doors get sealed up like near permanent with photos till the painter shows up.
There are many instances where the client/ customer are right. Construction is not one of them.
N
First off I suspect that there is something else going on in her life right now that is seting her off and not just the "difference of opinon" about how how the door is to be installed. Might be just having to deal with the all of the remodeling work. Or there might be some serious issues that are completely outside this such as major illness in the family.
"Also the biggest trouble came when I challenged her salesman at HD about why isn't he in the feild making 3x the money if he knows it all. For some reason that set her off defending this guy like it was her baby!"
Big, BIG MISTAKE. Never (at least 99% of the time) critize others or their work. EVEN when it deserves it.
Many reasons why not to do this. He might have been every experienced and skilled (but just screwed up in this area) and not working in the field any more because of illness or injury.
She "trusted" him, rightfully or wrongly. So when you "attacked him" you are in a way attacking her.
In fact you might even "praise" them.
For example instead of "that idiot does not know what he is talking about saying put in leveling compound first".
Try "That is an interesting way to make sure that the door is level. But I have never done it that way. I have always used shims like the door manufature recommends. The door manufacture will not warantee the door if it is not installed to their recommendations (pointing to the pictures showing the shims).
Now YOU want to door manufacture to stand behind their door, DON'T YOU, Mrs Smith."
What can see say then, but yes.
In general keep the conversation on what is happening NOW, not what had happened or was suppose to happen or why it did nor did not happen, but on the status NOW and what needs to be done to more forward.
I think that there is a lot of room for "different ways to skin a cat". Too many people out there tninking there's is the only way. I have had the same problem before, but it was cause by some "artistic hippie living on veggies and marajuana". Pointed out that the threashold was not fully supported and told that "he would never do it that way". also said that since "I" didn't put the threashold flat to the floor, I should floot out the floor behind the jamb so tha carpet would have an equal reveal in relation to the threashold. He convinced the owner of this.
My solution? Buy two large tubs of conctete/anchor epoxy, squirt it under the threashold, and float out the restin front of the threasold to make an approach even with the bottom of ther threashold. I then told the home owner that the leveling compound that was suggested by the "flower child" would have degraded very quickly where it was at it's thinnest. preceded to tell him this stuff I used is holds down building in earhquakes and tornados. Owner them agreed that the was probably a little off his rocker and did volanteer to pay for the epoxy. When I gave himthe price, his comment was "sheezes, this stuff could hold down the tiles on the space shuttle. Next time I should find out what it costs before offfering to pay for something" Another piss ant homeowner. Didn't even take into account the time to go to the supply store, or all the older wasted time dealing with this.
I did get to show him where the "hemp only clothes/no deoderant" guy used chipped tiles and the grout didn't match. He custom mixed with colored grout and tints to make small eigth ounce batches that were different from batch to batch. Funny thing though, it really didn't bother the guy too much. He did go ballistic when he found out that the "custom shaped glass tiles designed especially for his home" were on display in a Los Angeles design center
I'm telling you... whoever is saving the HO the most money is the most trusted expert on the job.