My general contractors have been experiencing their clients going outside their recommendations for some of their subs. Namely me that I am aware of. I have always done some of my GC’s work for many years and this is the first year we have been experiencing this behavior. Since I am in wood flooring, the client is at the end of the money drain and is looking for a way to save cash. My builders don’t like it because they know what kind of substandard work is coming their way from the cheaper subs. I think this kind of economy brings this out in homeowners. I am busy either way, but it is troubling and a waste of my time. Are any of you GC’s experiencing this to? Welcome to contracting. GW
Edited 9/16/2003 7:54:35 PM ET by Greg Warren
Replies
I've recently seen at least one magazine article and a book titled "How to be your own Contractor"
A family that I'm acquainted with called me and said "we want to redo our kitchen, but we can't afford to hire a general contractor. Could you advise us on cabinet layout, lighting, scheduling and give us the names of subs?" (I would be acting as the carpenter, they would pull permits and schedule inspections)
I think you're right, it's the economy. Times like these demand flexibility...
Would sure be insulting to be "cut out of the loop" when you've been working with the same GCs for a while...
Jen
GC in CA
What choice do the gc's have. It is not their fault. It is just the territory in these not so great times. Remember, it is worse for the white collar workers than it is for us house related types with low interest rates. I'll see my gc's again on other jobs in the future. There is other work anyway. GW
There are two situations where we have clients picking the subs.
The first is when the client knows and has worked with a particular sub, trusts them and wants to give them the business. Often we have been referred to the client by this sub. As long as we are confident that the sub can do an adequate job, we feel that this is a good thing and this relationship can make things go smoothly.
The second is when the client wants a specialized job done and knows someone who can do it. We have met quite a few very fine craftsmen on these jobs and sometimes are able to give them more work. Greg, you would probably fall into this category. The only problem we have is getting work that is commensurate with their skills. Not every job requires their talents or has the budget to pay for it.
We have never had a customer insist on a lower quality sub and if they did we might not go along. That said, not every job needs the highest level of quality. In those cases we still require professional competence and a reasonable adherence to the schedule.
The sub that they have chosen is known for poor quality. Other floor contractors that I know complain that they have lost jobs to this guys low bids and then were requested by that same client to come back and either complete or fix the poor workmanship. I do not have direct knowledge to this, so it is just hersay. I did hire a guy some years ago that was a helper of this guy and he said that he was sent out on his own to act as a sub for this contractor. He was by no means competent to be alone. So I guess I have some experience. This particular job has some L-shaped steps to be completed in treads and risers. By no means a beginner, just so-so installer for a million dollar community in Newport Beach, CA. It is a young homeowner thinking that he may get lucky. When does that ever happen in our business? GW
I agree with Dinosaur. I also rarely use the Client's subs. There can only be one Chief on the job site - ME. Using Client's subs can and usually does create a conflict.
As for Jencar's comment “ Could you advise us on cabinet layout, lighting, scheduling and give us the names of subs?" Jencar, you are NOT acting as the carpenter. You are acting as the Designer, Project Manager and GC. I hope/ recommend that this is reflected in your rates. After all, we do/ should not be paid for what our hands do, but what our minds do. The information and resources we have after years of practice have a hard value.
SCHELLINGM is correct in stating that each job has to be paired with the proper set of subs for the budget. With what you know of what a dollar can buy in terms of quality work, Clients don’t. Towards the end of a project, they begin feeling confident in their abilities - however misguided - and make decisions you and I find ridiculous and costly. They are then reintroduced to the dip in the learning curve. We all have been there.
Bottom line, the GC should direct the Client to the proper Sub, however their powers of persuasion some times fall short. It’s got nothing to do with the GC or you. It’s the Client’s money and final decision.
Consider treating this a s an opportunity to revisit your costs of doing business and if maybe there is a way to offer different quality packages in your pricing. Kinda like going to the Car Wash, explaining to the Client you get what you pay for. If other Sub can still undercut you, they should not be around for very long due to displeased clients or simply their running out of money
F
My contracts always include a clause that gives me the final word on selection of subs. (Many of the Banks also require such a clause).
On a fairly recent job, I relented, however as the HO had a "craftsperson" (a relative) who they insisted on doing one phase of the project. I walked through the layout with this person who walked the walk and talked the talk.
Scheduling was critical, because I had other things in the pipeline and a timely finish was critical.
Well, a 3 week project (I'm being generous here) took two frigging months during which I had to start another house and things got really fouled, the HO had to get extensions on his bank loan, missed the low interest bubble and, to top it off, the worksmanship was less than desireable.
Oddly enough, the HO was happy....I guess.
Never again!
Yes, it happens from time to time. Technically, I don't work as a GC (no license); the client is the GC and I'm the project manager. But I occasionally get a job with the understanding that I'll use a certain sub for a certain part of the work.
When I have a problem with this is when the sub knows the client for years, and forgets the relationship involved. I had a job last year where the client specified an excavation contractor for a septic installation when I wanted to use my plumbing contractor and his excavation sub, because I knew their work on this type of job. The client-specified excavation guy subbed it out again, to another excavation contractor, they tried to cheat on materials. When the inspector showed up and said: that's not the right grain of filter sand, Mister; I pointed out to the sub-sub that it was my name on the permit and they would do it my way or the guy that hired them wasn't going to get paid.
The sub went direct to the client and hollered that he was walking off if the client didn't pay him direct.
Now the client gets red in the face, starts hollering at me, the inspector, and the sub-sub all at once.
I prefer not to deal with client selected subs if I can avoid it. Too many ways to get into a mess.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
---"It’s the Client’s money and final decision. "---
Maybe not if the GC is standing behind the work 100%.
We are building a house soon and have given the GC the name of the septic tank and pad work subs that we have known for many years. The septic tank people have done excellent well work here since 1917 and the pad/concrete fellow was 7 years old when his father came here to shoe horses, 30+ years ago.
Both are very good and have done work for the GC in this area in the last month, but we only suggested that the GC give their bid a good look and if right for this job, not to let a cheaper bid take the job, that we will gladly pay any necessary extra to use them. They have submitted bids.
We also know that they do all work well and never overcharge, but it will be up to the GC to use them if he thinks that they are right for this job. That is something we can't judge and we are not pressuring him to use them if he already has someone else in mind.
"...but we only suggested that the GC give their bid a good look and if right for this job, not to let a cheaper bid take the job, that we will gladly pay any necessary extra to use them. "
Ruby, you are the type of customer that we love to work for. I am sure that your GC will go the extra mile for you.
I've been on the other side of this. I'm the sub the client wants the GC to use. In most cases everything has proceeded beautifully. The one glaring exception was a GC who used me as a scapegoat for everything that went wrong or was delayed on the job. A natural percentage of it was my fault. Nobody's perfekt. By the end of the job(18 months) though, it was apparent I wasn't at blame for most of it.
The roofer the GC wanted to use was not qualified to do the particular job, but he wanted to learn. He later got a similar job and hired me to fabricate and walk him through it. On the other hand there are other types of roofs that I will call this guy to help me with.
My point is, it was pointed out by someone that the GC's favorite was working on the learning curve. He might have pulled it off and he might not have. The GC was resentful of having someone shoved down his throat and put stones in my path. The GC should have done his homework and known his guy wasn't ready and I (or someone else) was. If his guy was the best guy for the job he should have stuck by him to the customer.