Closed Valley but No Metal Flashing
I have ONE valley on my whole house, and it’s about 6′ long. After the new GAF Armor Shield II shingles were put on, I found that the directive written in the roofing contract wasn’t followed… That valley was to to be closed and have new 20″ wide metal flashing. It doesn’t.
The inspector said he’d allow $200 if they didn’t have to go back and put it in…. I told him that if/when it ever leaked, the $200 wouldn’t even begin to pay for the water damage it caused.
Was I right to be hard-lined about this issue?
Bill
Replies
If it's in the contract, I would insist that the roofer go back and put it in.
Shouldn't take long, if the valley is only 6' long...
Was I right to be hard-lined about this issue?
Yes. Failing to put the specified metal flashing in a valley is not a minor offense. Covering up the omission with a woven valley makes it even worse.
Asphalt shingles so not last forever; nor can they prevent standing water (from valley blockages or ice dams) weeping back upslope and under the shingles due to capillary action. The metal valley flashing is there under the shingles to catch and shed that water in such an event.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Was I right to be hard-lined about this issue?
If there's nothing but felt under the valley shingles, make them re-do it.
If there's I&WS in the valley, take the $200. I haven't used metal in a closed valley for 15 years and I've fixed a bunch that did have metal in them that leaked. A piece of metal with a bunch of holes in it is a colander.
View Image
I agree. I've never put metal under any valley (back in MI) and never had a leak...except when a 12 kid punched a hole in the valley.
The only reason I ever put metal in the valley was when there was a trree close to the house. Thinking about it, it is kind of a stupid reason.>G<
I use 90# to isolate the shingles from deck movement. don't need metal, or I&W, no ice here in FL. That deck movement is what the metal is for, not leak prevention.
I thought you all finally learnt to nail the sheathing down so it doesn't move so much!;)kidding aside - I think I saw more sheathing in FL than anywhere else where it was barely tacked on.'course, I did more subbing on tract homes in FL than anywhere else too.
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I like to use 1/2 backer rod to fill those gaps in the valley before I nail it again.
I agree. I've never put metal under any valley (back in MI) and never had a leak
Jim,
Same here. Since when do you need metal under a valley?. If you have a cedar roof, yes because it's exposed.There's no reason to.
Joe Carola
"Since when do you need metal under a valley?."well, to start with, when the contract calls for it - which is the case here.And second, when the roofers are incapable of stopping it from leaking without the metal - which again, is the case here.
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well, to start with, when the contract calls for it - which is the case here.
I'm not talking about what's in the contract. It sounded like someone here said that without metal a roof will leak, which is not true at all.
And second, when the roofers are incapable of stopping it from leaking without the metal - which again, is the case here.
If a roofer can't stop a leak without metal, he ain't a roofer because you don't need metal at all for a roof. Forget about this case, are you saying that you need metal for a roof?
I told him that if/when it ever leaked, the $200 wouldn't even begin to pay for the water damage it caused.
That's what the OP said in his first post and that sounds to me like he thinks that the roof will leak because it has no metal.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/19/2008 3:21 pm ET by Framer
I back up a closed valley with either metal or 90# roll, one or the other. I prefer metal. Already gave the reasons why in an earlier post.
One of those reasons is to give backing strength at teh flex point at the vertex of the valley angle where the shingles bend. It is far too easy for 101 different things to poke a hole in the shingles there. Sounds like something did. Probably somebody stepped in the valley, or a yahoo cutting it slipped with his knife. Anybody NOT backing up a lapped or woven valley ain't no roofer. He's just a shingle layer getting paid by the square and not caring where the next nail goes or where the water runs.
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Pifffin,
You have your reasons which are good, but the bottom line here is that you don't need a metal valley period, and if the roof is done right like the millions that are without the metal, they won't leak.
So if someone comes on here to this forum and thinks that he doesn't have a metal valley and his roof is going to leak, it's just not true if the valley is done right by a real roofer.Joe Carola
But apparently this one was not done right. It leaks.
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But apparently this one was not done right. It leaks.
And it's not because it doesn't have metal.
Joe Carola
Joe, you don't know that. not at all
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Joe, you don't know that. not at all
I could care less about this guys roof. I'm saying you don't need metal in a valley. If this guys roof doesn't have metal and it leaks, it not because there's no metal, it's obviously because the roofer didn't know what he was doing.
Joe Carola
Maybe soor maybe it was done right sans metal but Bill got up there to inspect and stepped in it. Or maybe he was trying to lift shingles to find out if the metal had been installed and he screwed the pooch doing that. Generally, yes, you are right, it is possible to do a valley without metal and have it not leak for a long time. There are at least a half dozen ways to do a valley, and any time somebody says only one way, he is telling us that he doesn't know much. If it is supposed to have it as the backup, and does not, that valley is guaranteed to be the first place to leak when the roof starts aging though.But a roof that is supposed to have it needs it. Since you and I are not there, we have no idea about this one, since we cannot see what was done with it.
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But apparently this one was not done right. It leaks.
Not being argumentative, but I didn't get that from the OP.
The leak part.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Edited 10/19/2008 4:35 pm ET by davidhawks
groanThis guy has about half a dozen different threads on this roof of his.Not in this thread that he mentions it. Either that or I am confusing him with somebody else with same situation..
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Just messin with ya Pif. If I don't post something every 30 days or so, I think my membership priveledges get revoked. <g>
FWIW, I've installed all the different types of valleys discussed in this thread, and have yet to determine why one is superior to another. In my experience, if a valey is gonna fail, it's gonna do so almost immediately. Not years down the road. Of course, we don't deal with ice-damming in our area either.
Hope you and yours are well.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
what makes one type superior to another is not cast in stone for all jobs. I do it several ways. Some of the variables are
Type of shingle
Climate
Pitch of roof ( and whether two pitches or both same)
Style concerns
Preference of HO or roofer or archy
Prevailing for area.
Probably more
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You're correct David. In the first post Bill says if / when it leaks the deduction he'll receive won't cover damage costs.
It hasn't leaked , he just wants the written specs followed.
Walter
Im saying you need metal on a roof. Step flashing, wall flashing, front aprons, backpans, counterflashing, and of course metal in an open valley is far superior to a closed valley IMHO. Can't remember ever doing a roof without metal.
Im saying you need metal on a roof. Step flashing, wall flashing, front aprons, backpans, counterflashing,
If you read my posts you would've known that I'm not talking about all that, I'm talking about metal in the valleys. You don't need it.
and of course metal in an open valley is far superior to a closed valley IMHO. Can't remember ever doing a roof without metal.
Well, there are thousands and thousands of roofs without metal valleys that don't leak, so obviously you don't need them. There's no argument here. You like to put them in, that's great, but a roof without them done the right way will not leak.
If someone comes on this forum and says, "Will a roof leak without a metal valley" the answer is no, if the roofer does the right job without metal.
Joe Carola
I'm not a roofer and I may be missing something here, but what is the point of having metal valley flashing under a closed valley. Seems to me, by the time they nail on all the over lapping shingles, you are going to have driven so many nail driver through the metal flashing it will be more like a sieve. Maybe it could serve as protection against some exterior damage such as someone stepping on it. Someone please explain. Help me out here. I've never seen it done this way.
Since when do you need a metal valley closed or open?
Joe Carola
Well, with an open valley and no metal, all the water runs into that gap you framers leave in the sheathing right there
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The framers here in NJ caulk those gaps.
Joe Carola
The shingle specs used to require it a long time ago. Now I&WS fills that requirement and much better for the reasons you mentioned.View Image
The old flashing I had, that was nailed to the tar paper and decking, fourteen years ago was still shiney when they got down to it.... With the re-decking using 1/2" CDX, I had them leave it.
The valley is in the North-West corner. That's the directions from which all the super bad wind and hail storms come, plus the sun hits it all day and until it sets in the west, there's not a drop of shade. Metal, not punched with holes, gives me a better feeling... I'll let the other guys tell you why it's better.... ;>)
Bill
a valley is the weakest structural point for the shingles. if a lapped or woven valley is used the material is laid across a sharp bend and must curve to do it. There is a point at that fillet spanning the vertex where there is no support behind/under the shingle at all.So it is a weak link where, if it is hailed on or somebody steps there, or ( in other locations) where ice builds up, or a limb falls on it, or a golf ball....it can break the shingle right there easily, and that is critical in the location where more water courses than any other location on the roof. backing it up with metal serves to support the shingles more than to prevent water from running in there. One reason I hate these kind of valleys is that so many hacks try to do them without any kind of support backup or an ice and water liner for backup and leak prevention because they think they can get away with it 'cause most folks never see whether it is there or not.
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Thanks for your response. That's why I always spec. open valleys with metal flashing and discourage closed valleys or open valleys using roll roofing. But a lot of home owners like it and a lot of roofers don't want to fool with the sheetmetal shop. I don't like to see a valley that all of the granules have washed away. I guess it's my age.
...what is the point of having metal valley flashing under a closed valley. Seems to me, by the time they nail on all the over lapping shingles, you are going to have driven so many nail driver through the metal flashing it will be more like a sieve.
A properly done valley has no fasteners through the shingles closer than 12" to the center of the valley. The binder strips on the bottom of the tabs fuse the shingles to each other, and a single spot of pitch is placed under the upper inside corner of each shingle to hold it to the flashing. On all but the lowest-slope roofs, by the time you get 12" from the center of the valley the roof has risen enough so the edge of the flashing is higher than any standing water weeps. (On really low-slope roofs, you use a wider flashing.)
On many older homes, I find flashing that is not through-nailed at all, only held in place by the heads of a few roofing nails driven just outside the edge of the metal. Such flashings can actually be slid out from under the shingles with a flat-bar and a modicum of patience.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
holding nails back from center is so automatic for me, I didn't even think to point that out.
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I didn't see your post until I posted my own; we were both typing answers to Oops at the same time.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Bill, it is hard to keep track of all the threads you have on this house. Did you mention that this valley had leaked after the first rain? Maybe in another thread?
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Hello Piffin,
With the first rain after the new roof, the leak was in the transition between the porch and gambrel roof of the cabin.
The new shingles on the valley hasn't shown anything I can see. They are to come back tomorrow and redo the valley with metal.
Would you say that the Ice and Water Shield should be redone before adding the 30# felt, metal, and new shingles?
Also, the company's Inspector looked at the valley as he was checking out the punch list. He said no metal was used and when the subcontractor was made aware of it, the sub said he wasn't supposed to use metal...even though it's in black and white on his copy of the Scope and Sequence sheets....
Thanks,
Bill
Edited 10/19/2008 10:19 pm ET by BilljustBill
On that last question, I am missing information. If the metal roof is installed over I&Wshield, I would not take it up again just to install a layer of 30# between them
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On that last question, I am missing information.
The valley is on the house that's had new decking, 30# felt, I&W, new Armor Shield II shingles, but missing the metal flashing. Since, the ice and water shield will have holes in it from the shingle nails used on the removed shingles, should I ask that a new layer of I&W be overlaid before going back with felt, metal flashing, and new shingles?
Bill
The valley is on the house that's had new decking, 30# felt, I&W, new Armor Shield II shingles, but missing the metal flashing.
That's all you need. You don't need the metal, period. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of houses without them. You do not need the metal valley.
The only reason you keep thinking you need it is because it was on the contract. You should've had it installed because of that. Will your roof leak without it if the roof was installed correctly, NO!!
The only thing wrong if the roof was done the right way without the metal valley is that is was on the contract and wasn't put in. Your roof will not leak because the metal is not in.
Joe Carola
Joe, I'm not going to dispute that a roof can be done without metal and not leak, say, for the life of the shingles; I see that frequently as you pointed out.
But I will say that this is, in my mind, a long term quality issue.
I've done a lot of re-roofing. The older places almost invariably have metal valleys, and in 95% of these cases the metal valley has outlasted two or three or four sets of shingles.
You guys all know I dislike a lot of 'engineered' building materials (like PT lumber, Beaver Barf, Hardi-plank, vinyl siding, Pex, etc.), but I love I&W membrane. It's an example of the good application of technology to problem solving, rather than an attempt to create a cheap imitation of something else.
Previous to the invention of self-healing, self-adhesive roofing membranes, we had to lay double-coverage of heavy felt into hot-mopped pitch to accomplish what I&W membrane does. It was hot, messy, nasty work, and I'm glad we don't have to do that anymore just like I'm glad I don't have to cut hip and valley rafters with a crosscut saw now that we've got CMS's or toenail big fat commons over my head all day now that we've got nail guns.
But I do not expect any organic membrane to outlast multiple sets of shingles, especially when it's used beyond its design state (I&W membranes were designed for use on eaves). Beyond the points raised by Piffin about impact damage in valleys, and beyond any degradation of the membrane caused by ultraviolet, ozone, or co-lateral product inter-reactions, the damage sustained by soft membranes during roof stripping and re-shingling can be substantial, meaning you may very well have to replace the membrane every time you replace the shingles.
This is not the case with metal flashing, unless the guys stripping the roof are complete zeroes.
Finally, a simple metal valley flashing is no big deal to install, and unless you're going with copper, the cost is comparable with membrane.
So, what I'm saying is that there is still a good case to be made for metal valley flashing, and that its use does not imply that I&W membrane isn't a good thing in its own right.
Me, for a valley, I lay a course of membrane down each side, with a 6" overlap in the middle, and then lay a 24"-wide galvanised steel flashing on top of it to protect it.
Best of both worlds....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Well, here in our climate, metal is a poor choice for backup under a closed shingle valley unless it's cleated down rather than nailed and/or installed in 10' or less sections - which is how we install exposed metal valleys.
One of the frequent service calls I get is where a 20' long piece of valley metal has worked a hole in itself from expansion/contaction. I probably see it once or more a year. It tears itself near the middle. Takes a few years to do it, but if the metal is nailed tightly and can't move, it's got to ripple to expand. Once the metal has been stress weakened, it'll keep giving in same place until a hole opens up.
I've had to tear a number of metal lined closed shingle valleys out and replace the metal with I&WS. Never had one leak with I&WS installed originally.
What works on the tundra may not be the best practice elsewhere.
meaning you may very well have to replace the membrane every time you replace the shingles.
Yup.View Image
LOL. Well, even in the Great Frozen North we get the occasional day hot enough to buckle over-long flashings; and I don't have access to a brake longer than 10 feet anyway, so that's the length I use. And yeah, I cleat the edges with roofers rather than nail through.
But since I forgot to mention all that first, you get the Timbits on this one!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Update to all,
Thank you for putting into words what works for you. I needed all the information I could get before addressing the missing metal...
The two man crew came early this morning, and without knocking, began to rip out the Armor Shield shingles before I could get outside...
Bottom line, I&W shield had been used over the new decking and was not damaged as they removed the shingles... 20" metal was added over the I&W, and new felt and shingles were replaced. After the left side of the valley was completed, the fellow layed 3 beads of black roofing cement the length of the valley. Then he laid new shingle long ways, over the black cement, in the bottom of the valley all the way to the top where it ended against the house. Then he layed the right side of the valley shingles over the top of the length wise shingles as both sides were tied in and lined up with the original shingle courses. The repair looks neat and as if it never happened.
Bill ;>)
Like I said, if this valley is already backed up with the ice and water shield, you really don't need the metal.
&W, but then you might hacve another shadow line that looks bad from extra thickness
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I am also going to agree with what C U said on the valley. If there is decent I&W there, do not redo it, just negotiate a discount.reason, - messing around with a valley already done if there is nothing wrong other than the legal issue of not doing what they said, is more likely to cause a leak than to prevent one.
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