I just built my first two walk-in closet storage units, installed them for a very nice lady. I was hoping I could get some feedback on my price for this. Materials ran me $200, time spent 14 hours. Had to tear out the old crappy ventilated shelving, patch a bunch of small drywall holes, and chisel out 3/4″ slots in the base moulding to accept the standards. I built it out of ten 3/4″ 1×8 melamine sheets (you gotta be careful with this stuff!!), shelving supported by 2-1/2″ cleats (screwed and glued), predrilled for all fasteners, built to her specs. I’ve attached two pics.
Wound up charging her $710. Before she paid, everything seemed fine, “oh by the way I need tile on the patio and living room and a tree fell on my pool cage”, told her sure I could do some more work. I sent the bill, she paid it, but I haven’t heard a peep in the last two weeks about the other stuff. I wonder if I outpriced myself from getting the other two jobs. I live in central Florida. Thanks.
EDIT- there’s one on each side for a total of two units.
Also, anybody recommend a good blade for cutting melamine?
Edited 8/26/2005 4:30 pm ET by bbqjason
Replies
$710 total, or $710 for labor?
$710 total. I'm guessing I didn't charge enough...
That's what I was thinking. I would have been in the $1000 range.
I wouldn't worry about her not calling. Lots of customers have a long list of things that need done, and get all gung ho about it while you're there. Then when you leave the moment passes, and they are back to everyday life.
thanks dustin. I personally didn't think I charged too much. However, the town I live in has plenty of "broke" retired people, so my prices aren't where I'd like them to be. Hmmmm, maybe I'm not charging enough, and that's why I'm so busy!! Maybe I should charge more and be less busy....
FWIW, I also live in a city with a very large population of "broke" retired people, and I feel your pain.
Many "broke retired people" are loaded. Senior citizens are 12% of the US population and control 75% of the wealth.
That doesn't stop them from acting like they are giving me their last penny.
Their favorite line is, "Well, I'm on a fixed income..." Meanwhile they've got a shoebox full of money under the bed.
Edit to add: They are wonderful customers, and really do appreciate quality work. It just makes me laugh at the way they act.
Edited 8/26/2005 5:39 pm ET by dustinf
Dustin
"Well, I'm on a fixed income..."
I've got a BIL that's a doc, he uses that line all the time!
He does consultant work for a insurance co, maybe puts in 15 hours a week, I think hes pulling down 6 figures for this gig.
I always tell him that I cant wait until I'm living on a fixed income.
Doug
I must be living on a Broken Income!
Thanks for the input. I don't want to be the guy who bids lowest.
Cutting that melamine gave me fits, apparantly I didn't have the right blade. I bought a DeWalt fine finish for laminates, plastics, and plywood. Worked like a champ for the first few cuts, then it started overheating and warping every 3 or 4 inches of cutting. Stop, mess around with something else while the blade cooled, go back and cut another couple of inches, let the blade cool, and so on. Tried some other fine finish blades from my bag, but they were chipping the cut edges. I didn't have any tape so I set up a jig on my 12" miter saw to cut the shelves. first cut, flip, final cut, pray the cuts line up. It turned out great, but I sure could have saved some time with the right blade.
Which brings me to my question: What should I know about cutting melamine? Anybody care to put me on the right path??
a bigger saw. :-) Honestly, I just cut them on my 10" slider, and don't have much problem. Usually switch out my forrest blade, for the 72 tooth blade that came with the saw. I get a little chip out, but a very minimal amount on one side.
For 16" melamine shelves I use my skilsaw with a plywood blade, and I get decent results.
Edited 8/26/2005 7:01 pm ET by dustinf
I don't think her not calling had anything to do with your pricing........Homeowners do that a lot, get all excited about something and then when you go, the hand slips back across the old pocketbook and they think "that can wait a few months"
I had a buddy that wanted me to do some tile work on a rental place of his......he told me often, when i asked when, he always said---"in a month or two" After 2 years, I told him we were going to HD to pick out tile and I was starting Sat.
After I Finished, he wanted a porch built......i imagine in a couple years i will too.......
Okay, let's deal with both your questions in order.
1. Your price. You charged her about 36 bucks an hour for labour, which is quite reasonable for professional quality work. The unit doesn't look bad, but IMO you'd have a more pro product if you'd dadoed those shelves in place instead of cleating them. Another way to handle it is to dado in a set of shelf tracks (see below) so the finished unit has adjustable shelving. Many times people want to 'fine tune' the shelf spacing once they start using it.
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I built this one a few years back when my rates were lower than what you charged; it came out to $525 installed. If I'd been charging what you did by the hour when I built it, the price would have been about $150 more.
2. . Cutting melamine. I hate cutting melamine because the sawdust is nasty, gritty, and heavy. The glue used in the panel and the melamine coating itself are both very hard on blades. You need to use a special blade called a triple-chip blade. It has teeth designed specifically for producing a clean cut in tough, brittle materials.
And you need to remember which is your good face when you're cutting. On a table saw, you must cut with the good face up. If you're cutting with a circ, you must have the good face down. This is because the blade mades a clean entry, but the teeth chip the edges of the cut as they exit the panel. Using a triple-chip blade and cutting with the good face in the right orientation to the teeth should give you a knife-clean cut...on the good face.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thanks for the comments. I think you're right about the cleats...they're OK but not the prettiest thing. She also wanted fixed shelves, so she got them.
Thanks for your opinions on my price, but I want to be sure you know my price was for two units like that- one for each side of the walk-in. Does that still seem a little steep?
And man, I hated getting the lables off those things, peel little chunks off with your fingernails and douse in Goof-Off then scratch some more off...then some more goof-off to smear it all out...
Edited 8/26/2005 11:28 pm ET by bbqjason
For two units like that she got more than a fair deal. If she's not happy with the price, she's not somebody you want as a regular customer 'cause she'll nickel and dime ya to death....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Oh yeah, one more thing: Labels on the melamine are easy. WD-40 and a single-edge razor blade.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
A triple-chip blade huh...would one blade have gotten me through two of those units?
I'm not in the business, but I do know something about running my own business. If you keep working at $36/hour you're going to be poor. Out of that $36 you have to buy tools, a truck, insurance and licenses, a phone, office supplies, your computer, as well as pay taxes, and somehow find a way to put a few bucks down for retirement. Assuming that you are actually able to do 40 hours a week of paid work (which means spending evenings and weekends doing the books, marketing, preparing bids, buying tools, etc.) and taht you take two weeks of vacation per year, you've got 200o hours per year to work. At $36/hour that gives you $72,000. But you're never going to actually have 40 hours of billable work each and every week (can't be done on a regular basis, trust me, not if you want a life). So really, at that rate you've got something like $65,000 a year to run your business and pay yourself. You can get away with that if you're young, live cheap and cut a few corners (like health insurance, taxes and retirement), but it's not a long-term business plan. Price yourself so that you can make a living, and as your skills and reputation increase, you can start pricing yourself so you make a nicer living, this is true in every business.
...would one blade have gotten me through two of those units?
Oh yeah! I have two of 'em--a 7½" and a 10" for the TS--and I've got at least two full sets of kitchen cab carcases on them and they're still good to go for another set or two at least.
Understand these are Exchange-a-Blade blue-label blades, and fairly pricey...but you get for what you pay, after all.... Don't expect a $9.95 special to turn in the same kind of performance.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dude, you were most definately using the wrong blade. Those blades are pretty much just good for cutting vinyl siding and not even all that good for that. A good 80-tooth carbide tipped blade will work fine.
I used to have a buddy who bought a california closets franchise. One of the tools that they provided him with was a specially designed table saw for cutting melamine. Basically it had two blades, in line with one another, the first one was only about 1/8" deep and only cut throught the "bottom" face. The next one was about 1" deep and cut the rest of the material. This way you didn't get any tear-out on the bottom face during the cut.
I was pretty impressed by this idea and decided that I could do pretty much the same thing by just passing the sheet through the saw twice, once at 1/8" and then again at 1" without moving the fence. It actually works pretty well and this is how I always cut melalmine now. (obviously I don't work with the stuff very often or I mught be tempted to seek one of thoes california closet saws.)" If I were a carpenter"
Mark, that is some very useful information!
I'll never use it, but I still like to know it.
blue
That is called a scoring blade. IIRC they also turn backwards.You can get a retro fit unit that will work on Unisaws and many fo the clones.
A Modulus scoring saw... I had one and would not recommend them for most people. In most places you should be able to find a cabinet shop that has a real panel saw and can cut your list for you, probably for surprisingly little money. It's the way to go, compared to buying and wrestling with full sheets of the stuff yourself.
Thanks to everyone for their input an comments...my prices are definitely going up. I've been in business for myself just over a year, have worked in different trades for 15 years, and been working solo on a major fixer-upper the last 15 months, living cheaply, and doing a few jobs here and there. I'm young (sort of- I'm 30), pay my taxes, insurance, liscencing,and other business expenses, but like I said I've been living cheaply, and also have no retirement. I'm getting used to the idea of charging more (what I'm worth), but I've never had a lot of money so charging the right amount is something I'm having to grow into. I'm starting to understand that nothing is cheap, and I'm a fool for making myself so cheap. I'll get there.
Thanks again everybody, you've helped me more than I can say!!
charging the right amount is something I'm having to grow into. I'm starting to understand that nothing is cheap, and I'm a fool for making myself so cheap. I'll get there.
Be glad to have come to this awareness at a young age - took me half a century before I got there! Funny thing, the people I charged the least always appreciated me the least, and complained the most! (Oh, the stories I could tell...)
In most places you should be able to find a cabinet shop that has a real panel saw and can cut your list for you, probably for surprisingly little money. It's the way to go, compared to buying and wrestling with full sheets of the stuff yourself.
So you take the specs to a cabinet shop and they cut the pieces for you? That is brilliant...I'm going to look into that the next time I have a similar project. Sure would have saved a lot of hassle. Geez, I can only imagine just how much I don't know, especially with that revealtion. Smarter ways to make money are everywhere! (I just gotta find em)
Call around to the lumber yards and sheet goods suppliers, maybe call a machinery dealer or two. Find a shop that has a panel saw (preferably a beam saw), an edgebander, and a CNC router or machining center. They order things like MDF and melamine by the unit or the truckload and get it way cheaper than you do. Find out how they like their cutting jobs specified and what their terms are.
I used to fax a list to my source and then go pick up a shrink-wrapped pallet of cabinet parts a week later. Everything would be cut, banded, grooved, drilled for shelf pins and Confirmat screws, and labeled with a small sticker. Perfectly square, chip free, and I didn't have to breathe any dust or handle any 90lb panels.
That's way too easy ; o {
JLC or FHB had an article on doing closet systems within the last couple of months.The author said that he has gone to using a cabinet shop to cut and band the melimean.Just hands them a cut list.
Subcontracting out stuff you don't have the tools for--because you don't do that particular job often enough to justify the investment in that special tool--makes sense.
But sometimes a real tool-whore just can't help hisself. I don't have a brake, so I sub-out all my flashings etc. to the local tin-men. I don't have a panel saw, either, but if I get one more gang of cabs to build, I'm gonna buy one. There's always the argument that having the tool allows you to sell more of that kind of work, and so pays for itself in the long run....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I assume you are familiar with the various tools needed to do panel processing efficiently? I once contemplated buying an Altendorf sliding panel saw because I felt like breaking down panels was my weak link, but then I realized I'd still be edgebanding and drilling by hand, and it's just too time consuming unless you have flawless ways of having affordable shop labor do that stuff. I have had the luxury of working a shop with a lot of really expensive and modern CNC panel processing gear, so my perspective might be warped. Once you have gang-cut 3/4" melamine, 4 sheets at a time, you never look at your Unisaw quite the same way.
Yea you are definately working to cheap.. When you add in gas, ins, wage and profit...you need to bump up your prices.
Most people have alot of work to do in their homes and they dont think about it untill your there but after you leave they go on the back burner.
Another reason to raise your prices is for some reason people equate price with quality. They think the more they pay the better the work will be. So if you raise your prices you will probably end up with more work as well.
The folks who wont pay the increase..you dont want as customers anyway. They usually turn out to be the worst gators. Buckism: Will show you the the way
h yea. My pal slim shadey needed to have some drawers remade for his bath vaniety. It seems on of his roomates kept putting wet towels in it. They are solid maple drawers with ply bottoms w/DT joinery...They charged him 300 bucks ea. to make and finish the drawers. So there ya go. You basically charges less than 2 drawers. But I live in SoCal and pricces are high here. Buckism: Will show you the the way
Thanks sancho. I'm going to dive right in a raise my prices. I've seen alot of good points made in this thread, and your's seal the deal. I too associate price with quality. So the dollar-store mentality I used to bring to the table is gone...a mistake I've been fortunate to live through and learn from. With this new thinking, I should be able to pay the auto shop to replace the sensors in my truck's fuel tank, instead of having to spend the weekend doing it myself. Crap, maybe I can even afford a new truck one day!!
Slim Shady better slap his pal with a wound up wet towelright smack dab in de pocketbook
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oh, David! If I even had the space for a Unisaw....
I'm still using a 1950 model Delta-Rockwell table saw. There's nothing I could do with a Unisaw I can't do with that little baby...but I'd be lyin' if I said I didn't recognize how much less time it'd take with the bigger saw....
Yeah, I've seen all the neat stuff. About once every few years I permit myself the risky venture of visiting a real tool store (fortunately for my wallet, it's a good 45 minute drive from here) and spend hours salivating over auto-feeders, scoring saws, CNC milling machines, yadda, yadda....
Fortunately, 99% of the time the reality of my situation intrudes upon the fantasy of what I could do if I just had thus-and-such a tool, and I leave with a few bits, blades, and accessories for those tools I already do have. When your shop is 15x20 and you earn money with it only 6 months of the year, you gotta think three times and then again before buying anything that won't fit into a big shoebox....
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Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I never thought of using spaceheaters for a miter stand. That would definitley
keep your feet warm!
They're not really holding up the saw; a Workmate is doing that. They just function as outfeed tables, LOL.
And yeah, they would help keep my feet warm...if they worked. Unfortunately, both those oil-filled radiators have faulty switches on them, and they've been sitting there for years waiting for me to get around to figuring out the circuitry and patching them up with after-market parts to a functional state once again....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Ha! ROAR!
Dinosaur, why, you're a normal dude!
be heated
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Dinosaur, why, you're a normal dude!
Normal! Why, you...! I resemble that!!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Normal?
You don't say<G>
I've never seen a DW blade that was worth the trouble to put it on the saw. 'course I've only owned two, but that was enough to convince me to avoid them.Price sounds fine for your area. My mom is down in Ocala and has trouble even getting anyone to show up. Talking poor is a way of life down there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oh yes the "fixed income line" been there, I later found out they have at least $3.5 million in the bank!! Last months interest at 1% paid for the work I had to do.
"They are wonderful customers, and really do appreciate quality work. It just makes me laugh at the way they act."
Dustin,
Sounds like you're describing my dad. I'd probably act that way too, if I'd lived through the Great Depression and fought in WWII.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
some of my favorite people here on this island are the retired folks.but they are not my customers. had one the other day call for free advice, starting right out telling me, "I know I can't afford to have you do this for me, but if I do it myself, how should I go about it?"They have the time on their hands and some opf them have better shops and tools than I have.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A closet franchise would have charged that much or more.
If I bid a job 14 hrs. labor and 200.00 materials, my bid would be $900 - $1000. If thats too much, then I don't more work from them.
That looks like a very fair price if the quality is good.
We'd be at $1230.
blue
I get good results on melamine with this 90 tooth blade on my 10" slider:
http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Ultimate-Polished-Blade/index.htm
$36 per hour is way low. For 14 hours of work and $200 in materials I'd be at about $1000 and that's if I don't add anything for office time, which would usually be at least 2 hours on something like that. Anyway, at $36 per hour you will gross exactly $72,000 per year if you manage to work all 2000 hours of the work year.... which you won't. Subtract from that all of your tools and other expenses, and you're basically giving it away. I doubt you will survive as a contractor on that program. Try at least $45 per hour plus materials, then add 25-50% to the entire invoice. I suppose I would also suggest having the cabinets made by a shop so you are giving your clients the best stuff... hard to do with a tablesaw set up in the driveway.
Let me jump in here. Don't take offensive, but maybe the problem is how fast you can work. Fourteen hours seems like a lot of time for the units you built. Personally I think the price is fine, could you have gotten more? Maybe, but maybe a cabinet maker could have done the same job in seven hours and charged $70.00 per hour for the same job.
Just because you spend twice the time doesn't entitle you to twice the money. Look at it as a learning experience that you can draw from in the future.
No offensive meant.
Richard
None taken Richard...I too think the project took me longer than it should have. It was my first time to put these in, and I did plenty of stupid things, particularly using the wrong blade and also not bringing my table saw. A few other timekillers and I'm looking at 14 hrs. My work isn't the best, but the finished product is always quality, and my customers are always happy. A lot of my time is wasted double and triple checking things, so I'll also get more efficient as I learn to trust myself more.
The Big Lies people Tell
Living on a fixed income : god bless you hope to have one someday too
I have to live on x dollars per year : they dident say that was all they had coming in just that thats what they live off
Do you give senior citizen discounts : yaw everybody gets a discount
Gie me a good price as i need other work done : when we get the other work well talk about price
Had a person tell me she lived on 1200 a month and was a invalid , had her all set up for a govt grant seeing she was over 80 ,a partial invalid , a widow and all the other bs .
At the time of the interview found out she had 42000 a year of taxable income mostly from bonds & gic's poo lady
when selling land i am often asked if "thats the best price i can do" my answer is "hell no well add 10000 to make it decent"
Ive had idiots come back as long as 5 years running to see if ive gone down in price
Everybody wants the other guy to charge wholesale less 30% but collect retail + 30% And thats my 2 cents worth
I think you were cheap. Call her up and ask her if she's still wanting the rest of the work done. See where you stand so your not wondering about it forever.
LIVESTRONG
http://www.hay98.com/