stopped by a friends house tonite to see her home improvements….
removed non loadbearing wall beteen kitchen & den… 8ft wide 8ft ceiling had to relocate 2 supply hvac vent from former wall into ceiling… relocated 1 light switch… patched ceiling reused the 2 registers from wall into ceiling.. poor ceiling patch job will always look “as if”… took out large sliding glass door… replaced with 5ft french 2door unit with another 30” door used as a side light… low end metal full view doors.. the “door” sidelite they needed to be 28″ took it all off one side so it looks like
(to me)…&
#160; they did not alter the size of the opening at all…
homeowner paid for the door “unit” if you can call it that… the “lumberyard” custom built it for her and she even had to go pick it up… $900.00 total POS even at that…
labor to demo wall R & R the door, patch ceiling, move mechanicals, & electric
$7000.00
paint 9 kitchen cabs $800
install tile back splash labor only (she provided tile & all materials) zero cuts in the tile 18″ tall 12 running feet… $600
“custom built” for where removed wall was (wall was cut off at 42″ and capped with a 3/4″ x8″ piece of partical board this backs up to this….. she provided 4 kit cab doors… guy built around them using 1×4 home depot pine and plywood (subfloor grade) on a 1 to 10 scale on craftsmanship this lands at about a 3… he did do a nice painted finish and painted the old drywall wall to match… cabinet is 16″ deep 36″ tall and 80″ long took him 2 weeks to build in his garage at home… $1600 he did not suppy a top for this unit she had top fab’d
wall oven cab… (former) same guy “built” 2 doors where oven was and put some unsanded 1×2 pine shelf supports inside and 3 shelf boards 1×10 pine right off the rack… $600
painted the walls in both rooms and trim…. 1000.00 did not paint the ceiling where the patch job was…
the whole job except for the paint work which wasn’t alot of paint… looks like
the materials are junk the craftsmanship is really lacking not that the guy could have done any better this was the top of his skill level…
BUT… she is happy &
#38; proud…. brag’n on the guy… brag’n how she got prices for 3-4x as much ect…
I’d go broke doing this type work… even at a much higher quality level I’d have a hard time price’n it for as much as this guy did… guess thats why i never work for others…
i know my shortfalls and pricing and pay’n attention to details would kill me
given the limited info i provided… was this really a low price? and is this quality the norm ?
btw….no permits.. no inspections…
p
Edited 11/4/2007 6:49 am ET by ponytl
Replies
It sounds like th3e guy probably made a little bit of money and if she was pleased....it's ok I guess. It also sounds very low end to me, corners are being cut, things left unpainted, cheaper materials etc. Again, it's ok I guess. Maybe he did an ok job, I don't know, I can't see it.
If you want to do that type of work where you are being low balled & talked down on pricing and the customer doesn't care about the quality of materials and all they want is to get something for a cheap price and these are small jobs where the set up and break down times play a huge factor, and ultimately you don't make any kind of money....then yeah, have at it.
I did it for many many years, and once in a blue moon I will still underbid a small job, but I know that it will end in a few days and that I have money makers waiting in line. It happens.
I'm through with all that though, even if it's for friends that want a "break". I have two kids in college right now and there's no way I can do jobs and bring home the number that you quote this guy does. Yes, I would go broke too.
Besides, it's low end crappy work. I know that people need it and that there's a market for it, but let Uncle Tinuse or some other person do it. If you have high end skills, tools etc, make the work meet that level.
I don't know where you live, so I have no idea if there's higher end work out there for you. Some areas of the country you gotta do what you gotta do, and that's your choice to live there. That's one problem I've never had.
I hope you're not competing for jobs like this. Mediocrity abounds but is your enemy.
Oh, the other thing. No inspections or permits and mechanicals and possible structural works are moved.
That's an immediate no no. Walk.
Jer, you said,
'Oh, the other thing. No inspections or permits and mechanicals and possible structural works are moved. That's an immediate no no. Walk.'
Whaddya mean, walk? The work is completed. Owner is satisfied.
In my jurisdiction, unless you are adding onto your house, no permit of any kind is required, and there will be no inspection of any of the work. Period.
Remove all your bearing walls, completely gut out, replace all your mechanical and electrical stuff, who cares? No permits needed. No inspections.
Are you aware of how many tens of millions of us live in America today, with that degree (or lack of it) building oversight?
And you said
"In my jurisdiction, ..."
And therein lies the difference. Where I live they are real watch dogs about everything, it's pretty ridiculous. In fact a few years back when I was building an addition onto my own house I was at the township dealing with all the applications and the woman there was on a real power trip, (she has since been quelled), "you can't do this, you can't do that, what kind of parging are you using" blah blah blah. And as I was leaving I called her back to the counter and said in a loud voice so everyone could hear, "I'm rearranging the furniture in my living room next month, surely you have an ap for that.". I spun around and left quickly before she could think of tagging me for anything.The other workers laughed but she really wasn't amused at all.You get no inspections for replacing mechanicals? I know people do it but it really ain't kosher in these parts. I've seen people do additions to their homes and never file, and when it comes time to sell there are hefty fines.There's a few terrible insurance stories of unfiled permits that I could tell you. Whatever.
You get no inspections for replacing mechanicals?
Actually, we get no inspections at all.
And, as I said, anything you want to do within your four walls is OK.
I realize there are places where inspectors run around and anywhere there is a dumpster, or even some large cans, with building debris, anywhere there are tradesmen's trucked parked, anywhere they see a delivery of building materials, plumbingware, etc., anything that tips off a unit of work happening inside, they crisscross it with their issued permits cheat sheet, and if no permit, you be in trouble.
Not here, though.
Gene,
Don't forget OSHA in the bushes with binoculars.. :)
Dennis
Don't forget OSHA in the bushes with binoculars.. :)
What does that mean?
Doug
Here it is anything > 500$ needs a permit... now that is not likely to happen but if the job is over 500 l/m then you are supposed to file... there are a few exceptions that are clearly laid out but the exceptions also cut both ways...... doing anything electrical/plumbing... need a permit, I have pulled permits for changing a light switch to a timer..... other stuff going on in the building so it was not worth the risk.
james
IMO, bidding / pricing / sales is the single most important factor in the failure of a contracting company. Obviously other stuff counts too, but nothing will put you out of business faster than too many jobs at the wrong price, or too few jobs at the right price.
My system (I'm not a great success to brag, by any means!) is to estimate man hrs. x $35, materials and subs + 20%, a chunk for contingencies, a chunk for overhead markup, and a chunk for profit. I don't have fixed percentages, it varies by job.
I do know this: its hard for a lot of people to understand that the cost of office rent and office equipment, secretary, accountant, vehicle and tool costs, taxes, workers comp and liability insurance, slow or down times, bidding, etc. etc. has to ALL be figured into the cost for each job. Its expensive. Which is why, as some here have pointed out, its hard to feel a whole lot of pity for people who pick lowball contractors and then get burned.
And sadly, when price point (the lowest bid wins) is the great Decider on who gets a job, it often ends up that "good enough for this client" (meaning the lowest level of quality the buyer will accept) is the great Decider on quality standards.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Of course without seeing the job it is tough to call totally. But here are my thoughts as we do some of this:
1)Load bearing wall deal the price was about what I would do, the quality of materials was not as good as I would have offered and the patch job I would hope would be hard to find.
2) Door unit, sounds low priced to me.
3)Kitchen cabinet paint was ok or low. You have hours in getting kitchen stuff clean enough to paint. We always scotch brite them after cleaning then wipe with acetone or naptha before priming. Risky, time consuming doors off doors on etc. I would probably want 1200.
4) Tile backsplash. We do a bunch of these and that is as low as we go. We bill $50 an hour and if you lay it up with no problems you will probably grout it the next day. So another day ruined. So generally we will bill $600 +.
5) Don't do cabinets.
6)Paint for 2 rooms was about what we would do.
If she is happy with the quality that is where it is at. Although it sounds a little light to me too.
But one of the conversations that we have often and they might have had goes like this:
Me "Here is the quote Mrs. XYZ"
Her "Whew, my husband won't go for that, any way we could get it done for less money?"
Me "Well, we could cut out this and this and this as they could be done down the road"
Her "No, no couldn't do that. But we really want you to do the work. How about if we do some of the painting?"
Me "Ok that would reduce it this much"
Her "Not enought I am afraid. Could we use a cheaper door?"
Me "Well what I have spec'd is a medium grade and I couldn't really advise using a less expensive unit".
Her "How about the cabinets, do you do those? They wouldn't have to be perfect you know. We could always replace them later."
And so it goes. We end up going from a decent average job to a piece of #### in about 10 minutes. We still make our money, which is why we are in business, but you don't feel warm and fuzzy about it. If we are real busy we balk and don't do it, if we are slow.......beats laying someone off. I have done what you are doing and you are right, its a different world. DanT
Nice assessment of the situation Dan.View Image
Thanks buddy. Where you been? Busy as h#ll I hope! Family good? DanT
Yep busy as all get out since sometime in June or so.... tricky jobs too....homework has been eating up my spare time. The Mrs. and I are doing well... thanks for asking. And congrats on your new chapter as well my friend. Bravo.View Image
As you guys know i don't work for other people and i guess this is a huge reason why...
After doing this type work for 30yrs i still have little concept of the actual time it takes to do anythng... and I really have no concept on what people pay or what one should charge...
I do believe that a good trades/craftsperson should be paid/make at a min what a dealership mechanic makes plus the assumed risk value... just on that scale with the tool & equipment investment I think a one man show should in my area make 60-100k per year... maybe i'm off on this but... for this area i think it's fair... if he works for someone else and has no risk or worries and just collects a check then for this area... 50-60k is pretty generious for here...
the point of my post was... upon seeing the work... which she was really pleased with... I'd have a huge problem charging what they did for the quality she got...
the "custom cabinet" really was less than 1 4x8 sheet of 5/8 plywood and 10 home depot 1x4 x8' s with a nice painted finish... i will give credit to the paint work... but for $1600... he said 2weeks build time... i saw 2 days max....
I know the fact that she is happy is the end all with this... but even on my lowest scale.. like if i was doing the work in a $350mo rental house in the hood my standards would be higher....
btw... nice house in an area where houses still sell in a day...
I asked my wife about her opinion she thought it looked nice...
and even her brother who is pretty picky and use to be in the trades... was like... thats why i got out of the trades I'd charge $150 for a sheet rock patch and others were charge'n $800...
as i did say... I'm pretty sure this was "high end" for the guy that was doing the work... I'm not slam'n the guy or his pay scale any deal thats made between 2 and both are pleased is a good deal....
guess it's all about where you set your benchmark...
p
Edited 11/4/2007 11:05 am ET by ponytl
I learned a long time ago when talking to a client and they are b#tching about someone else that you simply don't know what was asked for or said.
I learned it when a want to be client had me price work for her mom and said that "Jim D. did the laundry room and we would never have him back as he used the cheapest material and it all fell apart!"
I know Jim D. He is as basic and common of a one man band as you can get. He looks like a drunk but doesn't drink. He shaves on Sunday. His tee shirts are usually ripped. He works like a dog and charges modestly for what he does. And he will install whatever you provide him in the exact same manner for expensive vs. cheap. All based on what you will pay for. Simple as that. And his work is quite good.
All that being said these folks wanted me to believe Jim D. suddenly decided to go purchase cheap #### and install it in a quality manner on his own. Which I knew was a lie. But a lesson I never forgot. So all I am saying is if the workmanship was an issue it is on the guy, but if it is the material.........you never know who made that call. DanT
Hey I hear you P.... I deal with alot of the same things myself all the time. I price jobs and then hear that someone else is doing it for 1/2 what I would have charged. To me... walking through the frames after the fact... the difference in price is obvious.... others just don't see it.... or don't care. To each his own. It's not my job to educate every Tom, Dick, and Harry that comes along to kick my tires... even though I still try.
But sometimes people get exactly what they "ordered" and are disappointed with the results. Maybe this guy is capable of much better work but got hammered down on the price. I can only speak for myself, but.... I can provide a lesser quality product than what my own tastes would dictate. But I'm not going to do it for any less (labor wise) than a nicer job. An hour of my day is an hour of my day. If I spend it fighting subpar materials onto subpar framing then it's your loss and not mine. If you give me a budget to stick to... I can probably make it work.... but rest assured...the corner cutting isn't going to happen at the level of overhead and profit.
You can pour maple syrup on horsecrap, but it ain't ever gonna be french toast... doesn't matter how good of a cook I am.
I don't let folks pick and choose which portions of my skillset they want to purchase. You hire all of me and what I bring to the table... or you hire someone else. I am capable of cutting a complex roof and putting together a tight frame. If your house is simple, I'm not going to charge any less for my time on site. You will pay the same as the guy with the complicated house. Where you will save your money compared to the other guy is in time.... it'll take me less time to put together your house than his. Best example I can give you is demolition. On additions, I'm often asked what my labor rates are for demolition.... same as framing I tell them. They think they should get a deal because it's just 'dumb grunt work'. No way Jose. Shoot, I'll dig holes for you if you want... but I'm going to charge the same per hour as if I were installing a complicated built up cornice. Because if you don't want me to dig your holes.... I'll go build someone's cornice instead! I'm going to make my money.... how you spend my time is your decision. Know what I mean?
At the end of the day... it's just business. Standards are in the eye of the beholder. If two parties come to an agreement and both walk away happy with the end result then who cares what your opinion or my opinon is? I've built some truly ugly houses. As long as the check clears (yeah, I said it) what do I care? I just don't take pictures of those ones! :)
That being said, there are minimum standards that I will put my name on. I can't and won't build something that's unsafe. I won't even try to build something that I know won't meet code. At least with framing, I have the code to fall back on. My minimum standards are already dictated for me... by the code book. Finishes are a differenct animal. But it does me no good to not build your ugly house and then go hungry or lose my crew on principle alone.
Being a craftsman and being a businessman are two very different things. Those two personalities in me often fight each other. Balance is the key with all things in life and this sort of thing is no exception. I truly believe that a craftsman who isn't a businessman needs to work for someone else or they'll fall on their face. But a businessman can hire the right craftsmen and still survive. I also believe the very best try to wear both hats equally well and that's what I strive to do.
Perhaps "your guy" was given a budget to stick to. In order to do that, he had to cut some corners. Corners that the homeowner was perfectly willing to have cut. Whether or not you and I think those corners were "cut-able" is irreleavant. The carpenter got paid his desired wage. The homeowner believes she has found 'value' in her purchase. All is well in my book. Even if the guy is a total hack!View Image
Well said.
Homeowners, do-it-yourselfers, or guys who don't actually put food on their table by means of contracting, are often deep in the dark about what obstacles a contractor is up against just trying to stay afloat.
When I moved here, I had to adjust my standards way down - yet I'm still accused of overbuilding, and being too meticulous. Oh yeah, and too expensive. I've seen buildings (residential and commmercial) with major structural elements missing, and the developer's response was "if the inspector didn't catch it, then I'm not going to worry about it." Which is BS in my book, but those are the guys who set the market standards I have to work in.
And then there's the customers who want the lowball price, but they have a "friend" who knows something about construction, who comes over to nit-pick the job. They always focus on some irrelevant BS type issue, and I have to try to please the jerk.
One guy was mad at me because when I set trim he noticed high spots in the drywall. I explained that I didn't do the drywall, he inspected and approved it before calling me, and his response was "then you should have stopped work right there and called me" Yeah, right. Except its like that in every freakin house in this whole freakin town, buddy.
Another guy had old vinyl under his carpet (an insurance repair job), because the carpet guy had run his carpet right over the old vinyl - so he wanted me to put new vinyl down under the new carpet (his construction buddy's suggestion). He didn't win that one, but the insurance company DID make me tear out all the plywood floor sheathing I put down, and replace it with ACX (which was originally used because it was getting vinyl!), just to make this joker happy.
If lowball price sets the ultimate guildeline for who gets the job, then the people who hire lowball sleazes are enabling a system that rewards the lowball sleazes and punishes the craftsmen who stick with their standards. So who's to blame for the way things are? I can't change the world I work in. I just have to survive, and determine what standards I can compromise to please the client, and what standards won't bend.
Safety and code are basic guidelines for me, as for you. Cost and profit are business necessities, not much room to compromise there, and stay in business.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Been there...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
how long was this person there for. I he was making any less than 1500.00per week for himself he would be loosing his shirt. add 500-600 per week for helpers and then perhaps 10-20% for profit. Multiply that by the number of weeks he was there and that should give you a decent idea.
Can't comment on the mans workmanship.
Dave
You are 100% right... and i don't know the whole time frame... i know what it looked like before and what it looks like now.... I have a grasp of exactly what it took to get from A to B... I never said anyone was cheated... the trades guy or the homeowner
I guess since it's been 20yrs since i did work for others and even then it was a contractor friend who begged me to go do a few jobs so he could keep a good customer... and i made out like a bandit...(in my minds eye)
I know this... (and i guess this is a great reason i don't do work for others) is that if i'd been asked to do the job and place a value on it, my price would have been less and my work would have been better... even given the materials that were used... the only way i could make money doing this is to have someone else sell and bid the job... and me do the work... this brought this to a very bright light in my minds eye...
I've never been good at take'n peoples money and worse at selling.....
this has been discussed here many many times... and this just brings it up again... if you are going to feed your family it's far better to be a good business person than to be a good crafts person... which is what 90% of the people who posted here said in one form or another...
thanks for your thoughts
peace
p
It sounds like you are confusing yourself by trying to look at it from two different points of view.
Sounds more or less fair to me, and she is more than happy espeially compared to other bids.
what makes our system great! everybody has their choice and their own money to do with....
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
You know, I always wonder about this topic.
I'm an engineer.
I review and design mechanical/structural components all the time. I do not change my charges or my rates based on which client is asking. Nor do I care if someone says, "What if I pay cash?"
I occasionally do pro-bono work (helping to design decks, checking load bearing walls or review mechanical details for elderly people in my community) but what I charge for my work is what I charge for my work. If people don't like my rates, or don't like my results, they are free to go elsewhere.
I do everything possible to produce good work, in the time I agreed to produce it, and I always try to exceed the clients expectations.
These are the same qualities I look for in contractors and sub-contractors I hire to come to my house.
If someone is looking for a cut rate job on the residence that houses their family and keeps them safe and warm, they deserve what they get. Likewise, if someone is ignorant of what they should look for in a good job, refusing to educate themselves before hiring the contractor, they also deserve what they get.
But if the contractor willingly deceives the client, hides bad work, or backs out on the requirements of the code or what it takes to be safe, then it is the contractors fault. Likewise if the estimate to do the work is not enough to cover the expenses.
I just don't understand why so many people will research things like Consumer Reports to find out about the minute details of a car and then go to the dealer armed to the teeth for negotiation...but let anyone do anything to the place they live!
Just my 0.02$
Best Regards,
Chris
Edited 11/6/2007 11:26 am ET by abbysdad
I do everything possible to produce good work, in the time I agreed to produce it, and I always try to exceed the clients expectations.
These are the same qualities I look for in contractors and sub-contractors I hire to come to my house.
If someone is looking for a cut rate job on the residence that houses their family and keeps them safe and warm, they deserve what they get. Likewise, if someone is ignorant of what they should look for in a good job, refusing to educate themselves before hiring the contractor, they also deserve what they get.
Priceless! Abby should be glad for a dad like you!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I'm glad some body thinks so! I'm not a popular guy tonight. She didn't clean up the play room so after three chances I sent her to bed with no stories ... Add to the clueless what things cost topic that kids are clueless how hard it is to tow the line as a parent.-Chris
View Image View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com