A contractor who I have gotten a bunch of work from lately, has gotten on the “wrong side” of a permit code dispute.
Basically the permit was not obtained because of a family problem that coincided with the job.
I know that he should have gotten a permit but that time is past and now he is trying to make it right, albeit a little late.
I don’t know all the details but he asked me if I could ask here about how much power a code officer would have towards making him do what he feels amounts to excessive compliance demands.
I told him that the standard answer given here is that usually the Code Officer has pretty much the last word up to a point.
are there any resources that would I could point him too that might give him some info on how to proceed.
His BIL is a lawyer so that is where he started.
He is a good guy with a good rep for doing great work but he IS a little unorganized because of all the personal stuff he is dealing with, so I thought I could at least ask here, because ya never know til ya ask…
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“After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion”
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, “for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods.”
Replies
napalm!
Seriously, depends on what "issues" there are and how cooperative the GC can be with the official and how willing the officially is willing to work with the GC.
I'd go with a big hat in my hand and look him straight in the eye and tell him I f'd up. What do I need to do to make this right?
Step one, stop banging heads with the inspector! Make sure all permits are in order, drawing up and ready etc.
Step two, clean up the site and make it look beautiful even when work is going on. This makes it look like you have an idea what your doing.
Step three, if you have a "code" clash. You say things like "Good point, what might be a good solution?" to the inspector.
Step four, if the inspector is truly being a "ball breaker" then go to his boss but be sure you got it right or better!
I am an inspector and my wife is a builder (well we were when there WAS building) ;)
I couldn't agree more. Just sit down with the inspector and see what you have to do to fix this. If he is reasonable at all he will work with you to make the problem go away. I do expect your permit fees will be doubled and there may be some things you have to open up to show things were done right. You better hope the first concealed thing he sees is right. It might just stop there.
If we start a job before the permit is in place (and get caught) the permit fee is automatically doubled and the job tagged until the inspector sees the permit and signs off.
There are no other compliance issues associated with pulling and posting a permit. The inspector does his job and you do yours and the world is right.
I agree w/ some of the posters. Go RESPECTFULLY to visit the BO and simply say that you got caught up in stuff and overlooked the permit, want to make things right, but also want to be treated fairly and respectful in return.
If you have a specific issue where you think you are right and the inspector is playing hardball, you need (I assume you already have) a copy of the code/code language to back you up. Talk is cheap ... 'the code should read' doesn't cut it. The words in the code are your only support. Interpreting the words is up to the BO ... possibly backed by your respectful arguments ... what the words say and what (if any) the intent is.
There is a procedure to challenge the code or the BO ... by going over his head, but that would likely be a significant challenge. He'll respect you more if you challenge him one on one with respect and level headed discussions about what the words say and what options you might have. You CANNOT get on his bad side and you always need to at least respect his point of view (and tell him that) even though you may not agree with that point of view. You don't have to agree w/ it; but he does deserve the respect of his point of view.
The inspector can't arbitrarily require you to do something just because that is the way he likes to see it done. His decisions must be backed by code language and his interpretation has to be reasonable and consistent with 'accepted interpretations'.
Sometimes there are state wide accepted interpretations based on specific questions. If youre situation has been brought up before, there may be a semi-official interpretation that the inspector may have a tough time going against.
Your post sounds like you want to go in there with respect but also trying to demand this and that.Wrong approach imo.Time to eat as much humble pie as is possible. Gotta make up to the inspector and if you come in with any demands of your own, he might really be less inclined to do anything for you.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Hmmm ... that's my tendency (and sometimes my weakness at times), I must admit ... Your opinion is MUCH respected. Sometimes I think I can have my cake and eat it too, I suppose. Time and place for everything.
The ONLY time I would suggest taking a stand is if you know the code as well or better than the code official. You can't be talking s*it ... you can't be asking him to let you slide on something that simply isn't right or is highly questionable. In that sense, the fact that you are tardy getting your permit shouldn't be an issue, otherwise it looks like you were trying to get away with something.
"what he feels amounts to excessive compliance demands."
such as?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hard to say what to do without the details.
Maybe you can't say that publically but...Would you say this is more of an ego problem or a financial problem or a legal problem
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t... your friend has two problems... the immediate one ... and the long term one
i would make sacrifices on the immediate one so he doesn't run the risk of pizzin in the pool for the future
long after this job is done... he'll probably still be working with the same inspectorMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The one thing he did say was that because they have a bed in the dining room it was going to count as a bedroom so now it is 4 BR and will need a bigger septic.Pete, I agree with the humble pie stuff.if it were me I wouldn't have even chanced it by not getting the permit, but some guys just live in the past where you could do anything and make it better with $$$..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
There is a couple ways around that one here in Maine.One is to be sure they don't put the bed in until after the final inspection, LOLBut the inexpensive legal recourse is to have the larger system designed and located, then register it with the deed at the courthouse along with a certain form.that also goes to be registered at the local and at DEP. Then IF the system every fails, the new one gets built. By having the plan approved and the location set aside ahead of time, no-one is allowed to build anything else in that area - structure, driveway, swimming pool, generator, etc.So he could check with the waste water designers to see if that option is available. It is sort of a closely guarded secret here, but5 one often used on island because of seasonal homes that just don't generate enough waste water year round to cause failures.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't know if it would work where you are but here we are allowed to hire independent inspectors. Sometimes it's better not having a nosey government worker on the job.
A bed in the dining room?! Ya know ... you submit plans. You call each room out. They are what you call them. Nothing in the code says I can't put a bed in my dining room. Because I have a hide a bed in my living room, does that mean I have to increase my septic for my occasional guests or my MIL that decides to stay 6 months?
It doesn't make it a bedroom. If I have a sink, counters, and range in my room, it's tough to call it anything but a kitchen. Ditto bathrooms. But if I want to call a room a studio or den, the BO can say that somehow it looks like a bedroom. Sometime intent is clear (the kitchen), but he can impose his own clarity and apply a heavy hand without some reasonable justification.
The code isn't made for what ifs and could possibly be. There are practical limits on what can be codified. If he is in fact applying a heavy hand just because someone has a bed [temporarily] in a room, he is out of line.
I recently had a problem with a Building Inspector that would have resulted in a $7800 gut job of the inside of a finished garage. I finally solved it by speaking with the Plans Examiner. He had the final say and directed the Building Inspector to ok my work. Thank god for perseverence and a cool, polite approach.... Maybe you can find out who actually examined your plans.
"Nothing in the code says I can't put a bed in my dining room."Youhad a really nicerant going there soI hate to spoil it, but there are local ordinaces that apply as well. The naitional or international "code"s are just an outline of suggestions, but they oftn get modified as states or localities adopt them.ours states, "Deisigned, built, or USED as ...."
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But you generally can't codeify what something MIGHT be used for. Again, because I have a hide a bed in my living room, then my living room is really a bedroom because it is used [albeit only on occasion] for a bedroom? I don't think so.
Even local codes ... e.g. septic systems will go off what you call out on the plans as to what rooms you have and what you choose to call them. Even if you start moving some furniture in prior to final CO, doesn't mean you can't e.g. stick a bed in a dining room ... doesn't mean you intend to leave it there.
In the past, I've had BI tell me he really didn't care if it was a 5bdrm/2bth with 2 people living in it or an 3 accessory rooms with no closets and 2 bdrm/2bth home and 8 people living in it. When the septic systems fails it will need to be replaced. It's not the number bdrms, but the number of people that put the pressure on the system.
His boss probably would disagree. But he was the inspector on site. (He told me to put the closets in anyway)
too bad your "friends" BI doesn't see it that way. It is your "friends" job, not "your's", right? ;~)
Normally number of occupants for e.g. purposes of septic systems and code compliance is determined by number of bedrooms. That is the only practical way of determining how many normal occupants would be in the house. Regardless, you throw your occasional 30+ person party ... they don't make you change it for that. 5,000 sqft 2 bedroom house? 3 maybe 4 occupants ... same septic system as for a 1,200 sqft house. Point is, there is no other practical way to determine how many occupants other than using the number of bedrooms. At least I've never seen it done any other way. You are right, the science of the load on the system is actual people, but codes usually don't attempt to look at that. It's impractical to enforce.
"It's not the number bdrms, but the number of people that put the pressure on the system."On a practical basis, that it the truth, but the state ordinance is more objective and has a blind eye to common sense. It bases septic design on number of bedrooms.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know this. At the time, I was making a point when I personallly had dealt with this. I was never expecting his response, especially when I had never brought it up, nor would I have.
The home was an existing 3bdrm/2bth. The new plans called for turning 2 of those bdrms into an exercise room amd the other into a home entertainment room. The additon was a master suite w/ bath and an additional bedroom. This was done to keep from upgrading the septic system that had been certified in great working order, for a 3 bdrm.
Sometimes the "powers that be" will throw you a bone when you least expect it.
It the AHJ is the head dog it makes a difference as to whether its someone under him.
You havent given a lot of details but basically this is how Im seeing it ;
Head AHJ has all the authority he needs to get it done . He works for the city and they have a lawyer retained . Since your buddy screwed the pooch , city council members arent likely to take his side either . They will stand behind their AHJ if he has the goods and it sounds like he does.
Your buddy may think its excessive but every stick put in with out being permitted could come out especially if its covering mechanical.
On the mechanical side that AHJ is backed by the state mechanical authorities . I caught a contractor putting in a bathroom over a commercial kitchen with out a permit from me or the state board of health . No plan, no license , no nothing . I turned him over to the state authorities and they ate plenty . Every stick was tore out and the job stopped until it was in compliance .
I came along after the previous inspector was thrown off a job by the builder. The inspector came back with the state agencies and every piece of drywall in the house had to be removed with out the convience of power and water. The whole house was re plumbed , wired , and hvac.
If the state gets involved the city has no power over what they do. The state agencies have lawyers working full time .
Thats how rough it CAN get .
Better off to eat a little crow and ask what can be done now . Much easiar than pissing matches your buddy wont win. AHJs are servants and good ones operate that way.
Tim
just for clarity is putting a bathroom over a commercial kitchen a code violation? or just w/o a permit
At that time it was disallowed . That was Arkansas plumbing code 1995. Different set of codes within the international codes now so Im not sure curently. What Im sure about is that we still have to send in a plan to the health department for approval on any commerical plumbing to be put in a new project whether it be new construction or remodeling . State plumbing inspectors review it and approve or reject it before the job can start.
Tim
You have a couple issues going on there, as you know.
I'm intrigued by the mention of the BIL lawyer. So what? If he's not familiar with construction and administrative law, he's as useless as a carpet tack on a framing job. If he thinks he can throw his weight around because he's got a business card, think again. If he has some training and some knowledge, then they didn't even need to talk to you.
As far as getting back on track, you've already heard the program. Humility, honesty and good work are a start. Have and use the (current) code. Here, it might be prudent to have an archi or engineer do some plans and calculations, maybe even go to the building dept to try and handle this job to resolve this. It's like using a CPA to deal with the IRS - there's a little distance there and it can aleviate a little of the anger and resentment if the parties are professional.
As far as challenging the BI's opinion or going over his head, good luck. I just had a go round on my own house with the man over the size of the blocks for the foundation. He insisted my plans only showed a 3' crawl space and I said it was a 6-7' foundation. he wanted me to use 10" block and I already had footings in laid out for 8". He was ripping me up pretty well until I got a copy of the approved plans and showed it to him. They did show the basement, not the crawl space. But, even though I knew I was right, I did it respectfully and said I wanted it to be done right. He let me use the 8" but made me core fill every block, and I did it. Since then, he's been good to deal with. I don't hide stuff or bury it, and he knows it. If he sees something not right and wants it changed, I change it. You can say, "yes sir" and, "no sir" without being sarcastic or condecending.
I've got another guy that works with me that can't understand how come I get treated okay. He doesn't understand that I don't pick fights I can't win - and there aren't many with a BI that you will win. Even if you win today, you are likely to lose tomorrow.
EDIT - As far as the bedroom/dining room issue, that sounds wierd. Around here, a bedroom needs a closet to start with. It's also dependant on what the label is on the plans and on credibility too. I've seen rooms that could easily be used as a bedroom that were approved as sewing rooms or offices. As far as the number of people and bedrooms, Va considers 2 people per bedroom. This might be a really good area for a design professional to be involved.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Edited 4/9/2009 9:41 pm ET by DonK