I kinda decieved you on code question , but the absense of performing code. Heres the deal;
Man doesnt want the back two rooms heated and cooled by the new central unit he has had installed. Code says I have to require it from a state licensed contractor. Owner is very clear that he doesnt want it. He also is a realestate sales man and is trying to sell this house. .
Tim Mooney
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Replies
???
Is this suppose to refer to some other thread?
No Bill , its its own thread. My lack of explaining .
Code says the temp in all habital areas shall be controlled within 3 degrees. A new system was installed by a licensed mechanic. According to code the mechanic is responsible for the system working by workmanship for three years. Im supposed to reject it by code. I did turn it down to two installers at different times and the owner. The owner didnt tell the next installer and he installed it . The one before him called me to make sure. The first one was mad at me until I told him . I flat turned it down the second time with no reserve.
Most of the towns people that heard of this disagreed that the home owner should have had what he wanted, it was his house. He was doing the paying and all.
Code says the contractor would have fixed it if a new owner complained to the state . At the contractors cost.
Contractor says a note from the owner he was working for would have suffficed. Got him off the hook.
State says I cannot force the homeowner to install but I can the contractor for he is licensed in this state. Homeowner cant install his own because it takes a license to buy freon.
Your thoughts?
Tim Mooney
The owner could specify a zoned system with two zones. The furnace guy could install duct dampers (assuming a forced air system) or whatever other method of shutting off heat to the two rooms. There are probably other ways the owner could get the result he wants. None are as cheap as just leaving out part of the heating system, but I think the consideration of a future owner is probably a good thing.
But you have to render a decision . Youve spoke on both sides.
Accept or reject the work?
Tim Mooney
Tim,
Fail it! The homeonwer doesn't have the option of selecting what aspects of general life saftey codes he can and cannot abide by. Notice I didn't say "building codes" but life safety codes.
The heating requirement is so that somewhere down the road someone is not living there in substandard conditions. What if he sells the place? Then the new, unsuspecting owner is left to have to add what he would expect to be already there.
Folks complain to me all the time about codes and then threaten to remove what I require after I approve it. I tell them I could care less what they do after the fact as after all this is America but I still want it built to the variety of codes we enforce at the time I sign the paperwork.
Just my .02 cents of course.
Mike
"Folks complain to me all the time about codes and then threaten to remove what I require after I approve it. I tell them I could care less what they do after the fact as after all this is America but I still want it built to the variety of codes we enforce at the time I sign the paperwork."
I knew Breaktime had another inspector on board other than me. Would it be you?
Tim Mooney
You are basically saying the HO is going to try to sell the place that will have two rooms that are not habitable by state code?
Seems like you are doing the right thing by failing the installation of the contractors doing the work.
Does a "note from the HO" release the contractor from the three year liability clause of the code? Do you all have a legal department to run that question by?
I think the future buyer and the HVAC contractor are both going to get screwed by this HO/realestate agent.
Dave
Milk Bones Dave ! You have figgured out the plusses and minuses . But the big questions;
1. Should a homeowner be able to direct a licensed tradesmen against code?
2. Would a letter get the tradesmen off?
3. How would you satisfy the buyers complaints that didnt have that piece of paper before closing ?
4. Should the tradesmen be respionsible as the state inspector and his chief says if their was a note?
5. Where do we stop what a homeowner doesnt want to pay for?
Tim Mooney
1- NO
2- No
3- Don't let it happen.
4- Yes
5- I'd say the code already answered that one ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
btw ... didn't the guy just think to run a few branch ducts into that part of the house and shut them off somewhere along the lines ...
even if the flow wasn't enough to do any real good ....
he'd still be off the hook?
or would those two rooms puch him up into the next biggest size units?
Can't see the logic .... a run of ducts isn't gonna add up much.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
The contractor wont get screwed this time . I required it finished or loss of electric.
Ill tel ya more when I hear some feed back
Yes , I had knowledge that the owner is a real estate agent and he trades property. I knew he was trying to sell it on condition of the work being performed. But lets give him the benifit of the doubt and say I knew no knowledge. Should he have got what he wanted then?
Tim Mooney
I guess the basic purpose of building codes, is to force the production of safe, weatherproof and otherwise non sub-standard housing. I'd say withoug a doubt, non heated living space is substandard (excluding 3 season porches, etc). The general and sub have allowed themselves to get pinched in the middle by agreeing to do substandard (non code complient) work. I say stick to your guns, particurally since the house is for sale.
Following the owner's logic, an entire house should be able to be built with no heating/cooling. Might as well have a bathrooom requireing a small walk outside and a half moon cut-out in the door too. BTW - what third world state do you live in? ;-)
Just my opinion... Just as an aside, something interesting about the IRC 2000, if I understand it correctly, - A room is only what it is as labled on the plans. Therefore, for example, a 10 x 12 room with a closet, a closeable door, and labled "reading room" on the plans does not have to have an egress sized window - even though anyone knows it will likely, at some point, be used as a bedroom.
Following that logic, if the rooms in question on your real estate agen't house would be code complient if they were labled "unheated porch" on the plans. I don't know if you all use the IRC though. Matt
I think SHG or another atty on the forum would know better but my very limited knowledge is that no one can waive the enforcement of a regulation. Would be like getting all your employyes to waive their rights under OSHA, can't be done. So based on that, no one's protected by any letter from the HO and the potential for someone getting boned down the road is limitless...
Following the owner's logic, an entire house should be able to be built with no heating/cooling.
That's precisely what I did. Our building dept. didn't like the idea but as an owner/builder they had little choice. I briefly installed 2 electric baseboards, total of 10' for our 20k cu ft house, to make the inspector happier. Long gone now. Struck me as silly at the time.
The plan approver certainly had no interest in my alternative to heating/cooling systems. As for how it worked, it's 7° outside, mid-60's inside, and the woodstove is cold.
This is unrelated to Tim's situation, but it seems reasonable to understand when codes aren't applicable. We have an inspections supervisor who has the authority to grant variances. Perhaps Tim doesn't. My experience is that the on-site inspectors will also do the same if they think it reasonable.
I got a formal variance for footing depth. Took a 5 minute meeting looking at my plan. The guy burst out laughing when I asked what "grade" meant. Has to do with my insulation "umbrella" extending out from the house perimeter. Would have been a large waste of concrete to go down 18" for something that would never freeze. Guy had no interest in why I was doing what I was doing, but had the good sense to realize that my plan did satisfy the code's intent. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"This is unrelated to Tim's situation, but it seems reasonable to understand when codes aren't applicable. We have an inspections supervisor who has the authority to grant variances. Perhaps Tim doesn't. My experience is that the on-site inspectors will also do the same if they think it reasonable"
I am the AHJ. I have full authority over the building just as any other AHJ would have the same. An inspector would have to ask the building official. Im it .
I would not have a problem with a house with no heat if you refused . Reasons;
1. You would not be hiring a licensed mechanic registared with the state of Arkansas. They hold his license. Hes off the hook and you are not licensed.
2. Anyone could see that the house doesnt have a central system and it would be noted by a real estate person doing the listing. No body gets hurt but you, with exception; your kids. DHS would take care of that problem. Judgement call for me.
In this case the house was being sold on condition that the seller install central heat and air ! It had it except for the back two rooms. The buyer could have been decieved and the installer could have put it in for free because it wasnt code . I could see that somone could buy the house expecting it all to be done if the owner didnt tell them. Especially an older or younger person. Non experienced we will say.
If I would have passed it , I would have been looking at that contractor and the new people. Contractor would have said , "Ive got this note and you passed it !" Homeowner says Ive been decieved.And why did you pass it ? State would have required the contractor to put it in out of his pocket . . Looks like a court case to me, but what do I know?
Tim Mooney
Edited 12/20/2004 9:19 am ET by Tim Mooney
I agreed with you at first, but now I have 2nd thoughts.But I don't know the exact wording of your code or for that fact mechanical codes in general.Lets look at this from several veiw points. The first is outside you area all together. But there is a real estate. The seller would be required to disclouse the material fact (if it is a material fact see below). And doubly so as the seller is an RE agent.The next point is how enforcable/practical this requirement is. "Code says the temp in all habital areas shall be controlled within 3 degrees. "First of all that requires AC to always be installed. But even with that many, many, many homes (and probably the majority) could not maintain that during all seasons without having independent Heat/AC for each room. And much of it outside the HVAC contractors control such as construction, insulation and windows.What happens if he would install a system in a house that mets the requires. But there are a large number of windows on the SW side of the house and the windows are shaded by a tree. The next year the tree dies and that room now overheats. Or during Christmas with 20 people in the hearthroom where the fireplace is and 2 ovens going,and a couple of pots on the stove what happens to the back bedrooms. Good chance they will be much cooler.Is the HVAC contractor required to redesign the system, at his expense, to met the +- 3 degree requirement?Now the 2000 IREC says that where winter design temps are below 60 degrees requires heating equipment to maintain."I would not have a problem with a house with no heat if you refused . Reasons;1. You would not be hiring a licensed mechanic registared with the state of Arkansas. They hold his license. Hes off the hook and you are not licensed.2. Anyone could see that the house doesnt have a central system and it would be noted by a real estate person doing the listing. No body gets hurt but you, with exception; your kids. DHS would take care of that problem. Judgement call for me."Now the 2000 IRC would not allow that. It requires any area with a winter design temp of below 60 to have heating equipment to maintain all habbbital rooms at a MINIMUM of 68 degrees.And last, but not least is this an area that you are really qualified to make a judgement on.I am guessing that you are rejecting this because there is no duct work to those 2 rooms. Now this might be a simple house, with consistant contruction and it might be "clear" that those 2 rooms would not maintain temp. But with "inovative designs", addons, etc are you able to determine what will and will not maintain that spec.For example a home that is have earth sheltered and 1/2 expose you might have only duct work in the exposed half. The sheltered 1/2 would be require much less conditioning and can be handled by connecting passes with the conditioned part.BTW, I fought the oposite case when I built my house. It is 2 story on a hillside on a slab. The first floor is about 70% exposed and has lost of windows on the south and west. All of the HVAC contracts saw the lower level as a "basement" and said that they would stick a couple of vents in the ceiling.I finally found soemone that would do what I want. Separate downdraft furace for underslab ducting for the first flr and a separate system for the 2nd and only AC on the 2nd.
Was there an alternate or existing heating system in the spaces not served by the new heating system ? Was the plan to leave this as unconditioned space?
The owner wanted it as unconditioned space.
Tim Mooney
In this case the house was being sold on condition that the seller install central heat and air ! It had it except for the back two rooms. The buyer could have been decieved and the installer could have put it in for free because it wasnt code . I could see that somone could buy the house expecting it all to be done if the owner didnt tell them. Especially an older or younger person. Non experienced we will say.
I get your point, but I don't see this as your business. That's up to the buyer and his house inspector, if any. And it's a licensed agent selling? Surely the state has things to say about his license and disclosure.
To give approval, I gather, would require you to grant an available variance. So your refusal to do so is to protect the general public? The sale, or not, really isn't germane. The hypothetical court case should not involve you and your employer, as long as you were following the rules. I assume that the permit is in the public domain, available to anybody interested.
Very similar to my getting not one, but two building permits without heating systems. They no longer feel uncomfortable, after the first successful house, but it still is not their business. The head inspector has now had a 180º turnaround about concrete house advice. He now likes them. Friendly advice is one thing, obstruction another. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Im in Arkansas.
Yall be sure to read the follow up to this thread. Ill give it when it looks like its out of gas.
Tim Mooney