If you had a good friend who said to you, “I’ve just launched into some major building projects that could end up lasting a year or longer, and I keep hearing that a Miter Saw would serve me well in the long run. So, I’m going to get one soon but I’ve never even touched one before and don’t know jack about them. (EVERYTHING I’ve ever done has been with a circular saw). What would be the best way for me to familiarize myself with what can be done with them and how, so I don’t get it and continue to use my circular saw for everything just because it’s so straightforward!?” How might you answer them?
Thanks!
Terry
Replies
Ahh, the slippery slope!
People's dreams are made out of what they do all day. The same way a dog that runs rabbits will dream of rabbits. It's what you do that makes your soul, not the other way around.
- Barbara Kingsolver
Can you say "Rental Center"? This way "your friend" can try out a variety of saws - styles and brands.
F
Terry, just go spend the two bills on this and be done with it. You'll get a decent quality saw for a great price as an introduction tool and any style changes between one make and another are neglible.
'Course you know once you start using it you're going to want a stand.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=57474.1
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Gary Katz has 2 DVDs about using the miter saw. The link below is at JLC and is for DVD #2. #1 didn't come up on the search. He teaches the fundamentals, but by doing so, you learn to do things more efficiently. And if you want to try it differently, you can do that to.
Nothing beats experiance, though. Buy one and a few 1xs & 2xs and start making saw dust. And a stand will help accuracy as well as prevent back pain.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/426ec79c001c4ee127177f00000105db/Product/View/MTM64
Like nick says, gary katz's 2 DVD 's . Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks everybody,
You've steered me in a good direction.
Much appreciated -
Terry
A dual slide compound mitre saw is to a circular saw, what a trim nailer is to a 16oz. hammer!-- what a cordless drill/driver is to screw driver!--what a tape measure is to folding rule!---what a pick up truck is to horse and buggy!--what a clean , crisp trim job is to one done by a trim guy using a circular saw.
Terry, Thats easy, If you look in FHB archives you will find plenty of info on subject. Good luck and keep those fingers away from the blade!!!
Thanks Chuck.
Actually, having poked around a bit, I'm now wondering if a miter saw is for finish carpenters only(?). One guy, not here, actually told me "a good circular saw is all you really need". Speaking of mostly framing. Any thoughts?
T.
A good saw and a talented arm will go a long way in some of the tricky framing cuts--that said who wants to load studs into a miter saw just to cut them down and rafters are no lighter--the one time I do break out the mitersaw during framing is when I need a floor worth of cripple and filler blocks cause I can put a stop block down and cut 25 10" blocks in no time and I only have to load a few studs or ever shorties which are tough to hang onto once they get short.Just what I do and there has been plenty of discussion on the subject so take it for what it is worth. Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
thanks for the feedback, Mike.
I'm going to look at whatever I can find here in archives and strongly consider that Bosch at Amazon. I doubt I would ever regret having bought it.
Terry
I have good thing about Bosch just be aware that it is not the lightest saw out there--I am in and out of houses all the time so wieght is a big deal to me.I hooked up the DW 705 and the maker for me was the poundsOthers have a shop or have long term jobs where weight dosn't play into things and if that was the case with me I would be all over the Bosch.Hope it works out for you , Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I got the Bosch 4410 last summer. Between the saw and Gary Katz' dvds, my efficiency has improved dramatically!! He has some great ideas that have so much common sense, you ask yourself, "why didn't I think of that?" And the saw is almost like having a radial arm saw. I am just finishing some custom exterior shutters I made from Spanish Cedar, using tongue and groove joinery. That saw made all the difference. Can't say enough good about it.
Got any pics of the shutters? Would love to see 'em.
just took some pics today... but not digital. Got the first coat of primer on. They'll probably look better when installed. But I'll see if I can coral my son to get a digital shot. more later....
I just asked my son to go get some digital pics and email them to me. If they get here in the next few hours I'll post them. I was matching existing shutters as requested by homeowner. I got quotes of $1200 to 1400 on line with paint to spec. I did 'em for a bit less than that!! Made 6 for 3 windows. Just got the hardware yesterday from a supplier in GA. Have to get the S-dogs. Will set up template tonight to install brackets when they are ready. thanks for the interest.
not set up to look "nice", but here is what he sent me.
I've never uploaded pics before, so I think these are almost too big. I don't really have time to resize, so I apologize ahead of time! I'll try to resize tonight when I get home. thanks for your interest.
Do you have "my pictures" on your Windows? If so just go to it when you browse to find the attachement and right click on the picture, select resize, and the default is the smallest pix. Click ok, find the same pix with the (small) extension and click it. Frankly I find it easier to do this than Irfanview (which is great if you are doing more).
thanks...I'll give it a try.
"Actually, having poked around a bit, I'm now wondering if a miter saw is for finish carpenters only(?). One guy, not here, actually told me "a good circular saw is all you really need". Speaking of mostly framing. Any thoughts?"
Sure, a circ saw is all you NEED most of the time, but that does not mean it's better or more efficient. With the right support, it can really speed up framing, even for long pieces. Especially when you want to do a bunch of repetitive cuts or compound angles. Plus the cuts are simple-stupid straight every time. The depth of cut is better too.
I have a PC fixed CMS with the laser guide. Very happy with it thus far. Some folks make fun of the laser as a gimmick, but this one works well, and I use it all the time. Don't even have to mark the cut. Just pull a tape measure, align laser on tape markings, move tape out of way, and go. No transfers of marks means more precision. Need to shave just a hair? No problem. Whatever crosses the line is gone.
Now .. four (likely quite stupid) questions:
1 - Is a Miter Saw the same thing as a 'Chop saw'?
2 - What is added to a miter saw by providing a 'slide'. (i.e., what's a 'slide'?)
3 - can you add-on a lazer? .. or does it either come with or remain without?
4 - Can one easily fashion one's own 'stand' for a miter saw? .. Or should one plan on likely needing to buy one? Does this one from amazon look as good as any? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00079TRDA/qid=1114729129/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3_etk-tools/102-9442739-2169765?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013
(The job I'm looking down the barrel of is at LEAST a year long major addition to the house. I can basically use my onsite garage as a small 'shop'.)
Thanks -
Terry
There are very few "stupid" questions. (Although I am sure you could find a few if you really tried! ) Hah! In order...
1) Yes
2) You can cut wider stuff on the flat than the saw will handle vertically...they are nice, but not mandatory unless you want a 10" saw to do the work of a 12", etc. or you want a single saw to do everything possible. I have a Makita #1013 and it is really nice, but I find myself using my DeWalt #706 most of the time these days. (The Makita IS a "smoother" saw, however)
3) Some, I seem to recall, can be adapted to an add-on laser and some cannot. I see little advantage for me with the laser, so have not really looked into retrofitting any of my saws with one. I have never owned a saw with a laser, so I am not the guy to answer this one.
4) Guys who have the time and are good, can, indeed, make stands as good or better than what can be bought. The rest of us...especially those of us who must set up and break down daily on jobs, etc... tend to just find a stand we like and buy it. You will find about as many opinions on stands as on women's hair color! :-) I like my Rigid "flip top" stand, for my DeWalt #706, but then, I was able to get it for $99 on sale... maybe I would not like it as much at the current price of $199!
Those Ridgid MS-UV's are now on sale at HD for $99 again. Just got one the other day.
Went back and got the 10" CMS for $149, too.
Ridgid seems to be good stuff.
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Let me add a little to what Ikor says about your questions for your friend:
1. Yes, a miter saw is the same thing as a chop saw, usually. But you'll get an argument from some folks who will tell you a chop saw ONLY means the metal cutting type of miter saws with a grinding blade, not the usual saw for cutting wood. Might be a midwest name/argument, I've heard it both way out here on the other end of the continent.
2. A sliding miter saw has the motor and blade attached to one or two long pipes. You pull the blade towards you. This adds about $200 to the price over a basic miter saw. You can cut a much wider piece of shelving or 2xZ's with a 10" blade on a slider than with either a 10" or 12" regular miter saw. A "compound" miter saw allows you to tilt the blade left ($50 more than than a fixed miter saw) and a "dual compound" miter saw allows you to tilt the blade left and right (probably another $100 to the no-frills basic saw.) For simple trim and construction you probably don't need the dual compound function until you start doing a lot of bay windows or speciality roof framing or big custom crown moldings. Unless you've got lots of extra money.
3. If you want a laser, get one already on the miter saw. Porter Cable makes a dual laser so that you get a bracketed cut line. Other saws have one laser which might be just to the left or right of exactly where you want to cut. You have to get used to sighting in your laser to know where the red line falls in relation to your pencil mark. You can buy an attachable laser to replace a blade washer for about $50, but why not start with one if you go that route? I've heard they don't work too well in bright sunlight outside. DeWalt miter saws don't have lasers, Ridgid and Ryobi and some Porter Cables do.
4. Yes, you can make a stand. I've got a home-made 10 foot long one on wheels. No, it probably won't be as useful and easy to move around as the $99 Ridgid sold by Home Depot. They just lowered their price from $149 to $99 about 2 weeks ago. Their prices change around constantly, so don't wait if you decide.
5. Umm, well you didn't ask a fifth question, but if you buy the least expensive miter saw you will get a cheap carbide blade with maybe 24 teeth on it. 40 teeth are probably the useful minimum for a 10" blade for framing, 60 teeth for trim for a 10" blade. You can pay about 50 to 75 cents and up (waaaay up!) per tooth. The more teeth the smoother the cut, but you get a slightly slower cut rate since each tooth is cutting off less.
You will never regret getting a miter saw once you start using it. Like everybody says, know where your fingers are and where the blade will go. Use the clamp to lock down smaller pieces. Don't EVER try to cut anything that is too short to be clamped down, go get a longer piece of trim and start over. Wait a few seconds to let the blade stop spinning and keep your eyes on it and your hands still until it stops. Try not to use the saw when you're too tired (well, it sounds like a good idea!)
Dusty and Lefty
Hey Dusty! (or is it Lefty?)
Thanks so much for such a thorough and specific reply .. all my questions clearly answered. I'm thinkin I'll likely pick this guy up:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/hi/B0000223FA/qid%3D1114529659/sr%3D2-2/ref%3Dsr%5F2%5F2/102-9442739-2169765
and maybe add that newly reduced table to it. Or .. I'll go eyeball some tables and see what it is that one needs exactly .. and fit one together for myself. I have the advantage of NOT having to haul it around .. it'll be set up at one spot for the life of its use .. so I don't need to be concerned with portability.
Looks like I'll have to pick up a blade for another 50 clams or so. It doesn't come with a laser and it aint a slider but this'll be my first and I'm NOT a pro so if it really makes a sizeable difference in this one period of a year to two of solid building then it'll definitely be worth it. (No .. definitely not "alot of extra money")
The night I get this baby, I'm gonna get totally ripped on red wine and head on out to the garage and see how really creative I can get with my new toy! ((just kidding ... i take your precautionary tone to heart))
Thanks again for the straight info!
Terry
Be aware that you may have a delay getting the Bosch saw from Amazon - I ordered mine last week. It was supposed to ship yesterday, but now it's pushed out to next week sometime. This often means a long series of delays before they actually ship.
Not a real problem for me, as I won't be starting to frame my garage until next month, but if you're in a hurry, you might want to try somewhere else.
Also - it's a little hard comparing specs, as some manufacturers use actual cut sizes while some refer to nominal sizes, but it looks like the Bosch may sacrifice some horizontal cutting capacity for height. Other saws clearly state that they'll cut a 2x8 at 90 degrees, while the Bosch looks like it'll just handle a 2x6. I'll have to check that out when I get mine. I've got a radial arm saw & a couple skilsaws I can use for larger stuff, so it shouldn't be a big issue for me.
Don
Hi,
Looks like a real nice saw. The 40 tooth blade that it comes with should be fine for your basic framing; you can probably hold off on the expense of a blade with more teeth until you get closer to trim work.
A table with wheels might come in more handy than you can anticipate...
Always Lefty, usually Dusty
If you want to be efficient and do higher quality work yoiu need more tools that are easy to use and secure/store. The last big house I built I had a 14" radial arm saw set up near where the semi unloaded the lumber It had 16" by 10 ft In and out rollers and a 4 ft x 8 ft scrap box behind it. WE could cut headers with the big saw accurately, cut all the studs to length for 9 ft ceilings using stop blocks, cut fire blocking etc. A miter saw on a heavy duty roll around cart with adequate wheels, fire sprinkler fitter's heavy duty screw adjustable jackstands to support lumber is the only way to go for pick up framing work. for trim work i like my dewalt 12" sliding compound miter. I have an old 14" dual arm turret (radial ) that i used to cut crown moulding with, it was always too heavy to move unless you had a lot of work at one location, i would make a jig witha wood fence at 45 degrees on each side a a 90 degree fence. that way the cuts were self correcting (if one side cuts at 44 1/2 the other is cut at 45 1/2
Terry, I would have to know a lot more about your situation to be of help. ie. Is this a one time project? Are you framing or getting into finish? Have you read Larry Hans(S.P.) article on the use of the Skill Saw? He does accurate framing work, with a Skill Saw, without the use of a square! I have addopted many of his suggestions in my own work. If you do buy a miter saw and are cutting off small pieces for trim work, be sure to clear out any small piece that might collect in the space between theleft and right fence. On your next cut, any piece in this area could, easily be launched in your direction! Best wishes, Chuck
Chuck,
this is a one time humongous job and I don't believe it'll turn me into a permanent, long-term builder. Necessarily .. (though .. obviously I'm wondering about it!) I am dong EVERYTHING but the foundational concrete work. But yes ... the framing and the finish .. electrical, plumbing, etc. Even though I'm beginning to move into it .. I.e., the design and permitting stage are over .. i'm still wondering if I'm not nuts.
No, I've never heard of or read Larry Hans and a google doesn't bring him up. How would you recommend i get a look at his stuff? Sounds interesting.
Thanks for the safety tip -
Terry
Here's a link to some of his articles & books.http://www.taunton.com/dtSearch/aspTemplate.asp?request=larry+haun&image2.x=0&image2.y=0&search_select=%2FdtIndexes%2FdtIndexes_finehomebuilding&Action=Go&SearchForm=%25%25SearchForm%25%25&cmd=search&maxFiles=25&Fuzzy=No&Fuzziness=0&Phonic=No&NaturalLanguage=No&Stemming=Yes&Synonyms=No&formIntGrp=fh&sort=Hits
Wow .. GREAT stuff!
And his Habitat for Humanity; How to Build a House is one of the books I got over the last few months as a warm-up to this project .. and it is GOOD for all the basics.
Thanks!
T
I believe that I've had my old Craftsman Sliding Compound Miter Saw since '92 or '93. I bought this before I knew of Tool Crib of the North or some of the other mail order catalogs out there. Actually I only recall Hitachi and Craftsman as having SCMS that I knew of, many soon followed though. It is heavy but I take it anytime that I have repeated cuts. I'm sure that any of the major brands will work nicely for you and I'm sure that you could always sell it after the job is done but my bet is that you will have a new favorite tool.
RU
Yo! Terry,
Its Larry Haun, and I think he's in Seattle! Get FHB, Best Of FHB,disc. Look up framing. Miter saws have brakes that kick in when you let go of triger. Make sure you! always adjust to immediate shutdown when you release trigger. Ten fingers tou you, Chuck
If your style is to move frequently from small job to job then a portable stand is nice.
I tend to plant myself for a year or two on a single job. During the first week I build a pair of horses and a miter saw stand. My current model is a 3x12 home milled spruce plank about 20 feet long. I build up a table that fits tight to the table of the saw. The saw slides into the slot and I clamp the DW708 to the plank. I clamp the plank to the horses. The table is really long for supporting longer pieces. I set up the saw in a shady spot where the sawdust can fly. After it is leveled it stays there until I move inside for the trim work. When I bring it inside I lop off a few feet from each end with a chain saw. The saw can be removed daily to the Knaack box.
I still use a skilsaw for a lot of things like plywood and rafters but for all my blocks, cripples sills and pony studs the miter saw always makes a perfectly square cut. The mess is in one place and not spread out all over the job. With a 12" blade you can cut a 4x6 in one pass. 2x12 blocks for frieze blocks or in my case 3x8 are easy with a sliding saw and fit tighter than a block cut with a skilsaw.
b uy the biggeat and most versatile one you can affors and get a really good stand
personally i have 2 dewalt compound sliders 12 inch on hitachi stands, there're great for the fine trim i do
if i had to cut say 200 studs or 50 rafters all the same, i couldnt imagine a better tool
caulking is not a piece of trim
They are one of the most important tools for me in remodeling. My DW 705 12" was purchased by my brother-in-law when I did a bath add-on for his folks/my inlaws. He did not have the time to help and put it toward the project and told me to keep it. Have added a Hitachi 10" that I use for small jobs. If I am going to need a miter saw for trim later it does not make sense to use a circ to cut studs or whatever.
I have made so many things using the 705 I cannot remember. Mirror frames, floating shelves, not to mention chopping up a train car load of PT yellow pine for decks and other projects. I am sure there are guys out there who could shave half a blade thickness off the end with a circ saw but I sure am not one. On the other hand I do not work production. I just explained the difference in exposure to hazard of circ vs a miter saw. The basic thing (but not only) you need to concern yourself with when using the miter is the relationship of the blade to where your hands are.
I figure mine saved about three times what it would have cost when I built our house using a crew that was not fine tuned fast framers. There are a lot of guys that can make cuts by hand that a miter would envy I am sure but I would put the cms up against most for quality.