Concerns with foundation on new purchase
Hey folks… Could use some help with some of these issues!
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We are purchasing a house and have a few concerns regarding the foundation. First we did the basic home inspection, gave the homeowners a chance to correct the problems, then per the inspectors recommendation we did a follow up with a structural engineer (inspected on Thursday and report provided Friday.)
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Since this is new construction 2001, my wife wants to walk away from the contract and look for another house. Can you tell me if she is being reasonable?
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Thanks, Lee
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During the initial home inspection several issues turned up in the craw space e.g.
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1.) Use of dimensional lumber for the outer band material. Most joist manufacturers require use of an engineered rim board product that is compatible with the joist material.
2.) Ends of joists on the side foundation walls are supported by a ledger strip (pressure treated dimensional lumber) that is nailed to the band joist with 3 nails (in some cases 2 nails) under each joist. This end support should be considered an engineered connection. Also noted toe-nailing of the flange members of the I joist to the band – some splitting of the I joist flange observed. <!—->
3.) The 2×6 cripple walls at the stepped –down foundation (left, right, and rear sides) are installed on a pier and curtain foundation wall. The curtain wall does not provide continuous support for the framed walls (curtain walls are considered non-load bearing). Above the cripple wall, the band joist is supported continuously by the cripple walls – no multiple studs provided at pier locations to act as columns to transfer load to the piers. <!—->
4.) Pier spacing on the pier and curtain foundation wall are normal 5’-6’ spans. Note some foundation anchors (bolts, straps) are embedded in the curtain wall (which is non-structural) instead of piers. <!—->
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After the homeowners were to have completed the repairs this is what the structural eng had to say,
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1.) On each side of the crawlspace access door at the rear of the house, a pier should be constructed for support of the band above.
2.) At various locations in the crawlspace, anchor bolts have been installed into the brick veneer. The brick veneer is not considered load bearing. Foundation straps or anchor bolts should be installed into each pier for uplift resistance of the sill plate.
3.) The perimeter band is supported by a 2 x 6 foundation cripple wall. This cripple wall is supported by the brick veneer only between piers. The piers are located at up to 10’-0†centers. All piers should be spaced at a maximum of 6’-0†centers with a minimum of three (3) 2 x 6 studs in the cripple wall from the piers to the band above. In lieu of additional piers, the band may be upsized or verified to support the design loads over the existing spans. Also, the inside face of the cripple wall may be clad with sheathing to form a diaphragm to span between the existing piers.
4.) At the front foundation wall where the plumbing pipe exits the crawlspace, the foundation wall should be sealed with brick and mortar to prevent water intrusion into the crawlspace.
Replies
bump
I won't ever claim to be an expert.
First of all, how did the house pass in the first inspection? Rhetorical question, don't answer. Have there been any attempts by the owners to correct some of the issues?
At first read, I would walk away. Also, as a potential seller, I would try to find out these things have "just recently" become an issue.
Without pictures of these things, the list seems very nitpicky.
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I think I would talk to the inspector and the engineer and find out if the house would have met code in 2001. If not, you have these options:
Around here, code violations must be fixed before the deal can close
None of it seems particularly critical to me, or difficult to deal with should you choose to make repairs- Any evidence of failure thus far due to these particulars? How bad do you want the house and how badly does the seller want to sell? You can always find another house, but you'll probably never find one that can't be faulted in one way or another-
Why not walk away from the purchase? Maybe even run... If this kind of stuff was found in the foundation, I wonder what is in the walls?
Consider the money you spent on the HI and PE money well spent, if not an expensive lesson learned.
Any pics??
A couple things you mention, I can't figure out w/o seeing them.But, I've never,ever seen bolts set in piers....ever.
Have used dimensional lumber as rim in the past,too.Mostly cause,here, they want treated wherever there's a porch or deck.
I'll confess I can't picture some of what you are describing.
I'd be most concerned with the improper dimensional lumber band material, assuming the floors are made with I-joists.
That dimensional band joist will shrink and the ends of the I joists will become load bearing. I'm pretty certain they are not designed to carry such loads. But, are there squash blocks between the flanges at the ends?
The approach I take to my home inspections focuses less on have the i's been dotted and the t's crossed, and more with how the house has performed or is likely to perform. I see lots of "problems" during inspections that just don't have any real world effect: mother-sized notches for ducts in the joist closest to and parallel to the foundation. Absolute no-no, but rarely if ever of any real concern.
I often tell my clients "no blood, no foul."
A harder issue to deal with is the deficiency with uncertain results or long term effects, such as the band joist situation.
I'd talk to the structural guy and the HI and ask them to discuss what they see as the likely effects of those "deficiencies." "Don't tell me 'it's wrong.' Tell me what it means."
"Look at that hill over there!"
Is it a molehill, or mountain?
Some molehills are just molehills, after all.
I'd also consider the market you are in and what your needs are: in my area every 3rd home is for sale, if I have some doubts about one, the odds are high I can find one that I don't have doubts about.
And, consider whether you're prepared to hear "I told you so" from your spouse for the rest of your life <G?>
Count me in as having a hard time picturing what details there are from the wording of the inspector and engineer. We work with piers a lot but not around brick veneer, and the details in that connection are where I am most lost.
A lot of the other is seeming minor to me. The I joist perimeter can be fixed easily with squash blocks, unless, again, my mental picture from your verbiage is incorrect.
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I'm going to respond again, now that I have a bit more time... I'm editing my comments into the text of your HI and PE reports. Your text is in black:
1.) Use of dimensional lumber for the outer band material. Most joist manufacturers require use of an engineered rim board product that is compatible with the joist material. I've never seen a dimensional band used with I-joists (assuming they are I-joists). Maybe there is a brand that allows it? I've only worked with 3 manufacturers I-joist systems that I can think of... but I don't think there are a whole bunch of 'em. It would also appear that not only were the framers not familiar with this type of construction, but the builder was not familiar with it either, since he should have provided the engineered rim joist, depending if he was supplying the material, which at least around where I live is the way things work. The best thing to do would be to contact the manufacturer of the I-joist and ask them. The I-joists should have the brand stamped on them. There is I-joist installation instruction for several manafactueres on the internet, and I believe they all call for the use of their rim board - I don't know - maybe they just want to sell you their material ;-)
2.) Ends of joists on the side foundation walls are supported by a ledger strip (pressure treated dimensional lumber) that is nailed to the band joist with 3 nails (in some cases 2 nails) under each joist. Our code requires 3 nails below each joist for ledger strip type support, but I've never seen/heard of I-joists being supported by ledger strips (again assuming that they are I-Joists). The thing about these "engineered floor systems" is they have to be installed per manufacturer's instructions. This end support should be considered an engineered connection. Also noted toe-nailing of the flange members of the I joist to the band – some splitting of the I joist flange observed. You are not supposed to nail into the flange. I don't see that in itself problematic, more that it is a pretty good indicator that whoever framed the house did not know what they were doing and/or did not read the installation instructions for the I-joists (again assuming I-joists...). Re the "engineered connection" statement, I think he is basically saying that joist hangers should have been used. You gotta understand that a HI's job is just to report what he sees. Not necessarily to say how it should have been done, or make any predictions as to how long something might last.
3.) The 2x6 cripple walls at the stepped –down foundation (left, right, and rear sides) are installed on a pier and curtain foundation wall. The curtain wall does not provide continuous support for the framed walls (curtain walls are considered non-load bearing). Above the cripple wall, the band joist is supported continuously by the cripple walls – no multiple studs provided at pier locations to act as columns to transfer load to the piers. I suspect that a lot of folks here may not know what pier and curtain foundations are since I don't think they are used universally throughout the US. They are used here in NC and in SC, more commonly in costal areas. Curtain walls are normally constructed in one of 2 manners: 1) normally, a narrow footing supports the curtain wall. This footing is poured at the same time the pier footings are poured. This footing is only designed to support the weight of the curtain wall itself - in this case a brick veneer. Not support the structure itself, or, 2) the Curtain wall is supported by a steel lentil at the bottom - again, this intended to support the curtain wall only. Not sure what else to say about it except that the structure is built incorrectly as the HI is stating The bearing points on the piers are not being transferred directly up the the floor system (ie: "no multiple studs".
4.) Pier spacing on the pier and curtain foundation wall are normal 5’-6’ spans. Note some foundation anchors (bolts, straps) are embedded in the curtain wall (which is non-structural) instead of piers. The pier spacing seems to conflict with what the PE says below. Re the anchor bolts, although. in the past (PRE 2002) our NC code has been somewhat lax in the requirement of anchor bolts, anchor bolts have been required whenever you have a wall on top of a wall. I think the main problem is potentially that the framers did not understand that the curtain walls were not load bearing, which was probably fueled by the anchor bolts being installed in the veneer - which I gotta assume that the only reason the brickies would do this is because the builder told them to. It also sounds like you have a 2x6 pony wall bearing on a presumable 4" brick veneer, which is non-conventional, although wood supported by masonry needs only 3" of bearing.
After the homeowners were to have completed the repairs this is what the structural eng had to say, Did they actually repair some things?
1.) On each side of the crawlspace access door at the rear of the house, a pier should be constructed for support of the band above. It sounds like this is another instance where the curtain wall is being treated like a load bearing wall. If the rim joist above the door is doubled, this may be OK.
2.) At various locations in the crawlspace, anchor bolts have been installed into the brick veneer. The brick veneer is not considered load bearing. Foundation straps or anchor bolts should be installed into each pier for uplift resistance of the sill plate. This is not right, but I'm not sure how worried I'd be about it unless you live in an area of significant incidence of hurricanes, tornadoes, or earthquakes. For example, in the area where I live anchor bolts were not required on crawlspace type foundations up until about 3 years ago. Although I have only lived around here for maybe 12 years, I have never heard of a house being knocked off it's foundation (houses with wheels excluded :-)). We do get occasional hurricanes, but by the time they get this far inland, they are not that powerful, and damage is mostly caused by trees that blow over on people's homes. On the other hand, anchor bolts have always been required whenever you have a pony wall (knee wall) attached to the top of a foundation wall.
3.) The perimeter band is supported by a 2 x 6 foundation cripple wall. If the band (rim joist) is a double 2x? this may not be a problem. It may be a bit difficult to determine weather it is a double or a single though. I suspect it might be double, since above it says that some joists are supported by ledger strips. This cripple wall is supported by the brick veneer only between piers. (Same as HI noted above) The piers are located at up to 10’-0” centers. To me, this is potentially about the worse part of the whole report(s), because of the next statement (6' centers required). Another thing we do not know though from the info you provided is is the band a 2x10, 2x12, or what. If it is a single story house, with a double 2x12 band, this might well be adequate. All piers should be spaced at a maximum of 6’-0” centers with a minimum of three (3) 2 x 6 studs in the cripple wall from the piers to the band above. In lieu of additional piers, the band may be upsized or verified to support the design loads over the existing spans. Also, the inside face of the cripple wall may be clad with sheathing to form a diaphragm to span between the existing piers. These sound like reasonable fixes, and potentially not that expensive.
4.) At the front foundation wall where the plumbing pipe exits the crawlspace, the foundation wall should be sealed with brick and mortar to prevent water intrusion into the crawlspace. This is a reasonable observation and needs to be corrected. It's building 101.
The bottom line is why would you want to buy this house when you have 2 professionals telling you that is constructed improperly? For the most part, their stories match. Further, this is only the part they could see. If it is a 2 story house, I wonder how the 2nd floor floor system is constructed, which is now totally covered up? I wonder what is inside of the walls? Granted no structural failures have occurred yet. Unless all of this stuff is corrected, what makes you think that when you go to sell the house, you won't be on the other end of this current situation? I don't know, maybe this house is a really good deal or is in some really ideal location that makes it particularly attractive.
Thanks guys for taking the time to reply,
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Talking with the wife, realtor, and sellers we came to the following decision.
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The builder will have one last chance to correct all deficiencies and following this, the structuring eng will inspect the foundation. If the Structuring Eng is satisfied then he will certify the foundation and issue a document to the fact. Without the certification the closing will be cancelled and we will walk away. All of this needs to be completed before this coming Friday.
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I do understand some of the hesitation my wife has. With all the new construction going on nation wide there are bound to be some problems with quality. I am not looking to blow this out of proportion and I don’t want to make a molehill into a mountain but it is an area of concern.
Lee