I get a load of ready mix… only 8yds… 3500lb mix 4in slump 1% calcium
about 4 wheel barrow loads into the forms and it ain’t look’n , feel’n or work’n right way too wet i can see clean rock ie: as were screed’n it the rocks at the top are look’n real clean like they are in a very weak mix (like no portland in the mix) I tell the driver who I’ve known for 15yrs…(his dad owns the plant) he looks at it swears it’s ok… but i’m not like’n it… we pour a little more… i have a pallet of portland on the site so we dump 5 bags into the truck… still no better… he runs it back to the plant (only 7-8 min away) comes back… it still sucks… so i call a testing company they send a dude by to take samples… we pour & finish the rest of the pour… I’m not happy but what do u do? I’m there til like 3am before i can get a slick finish on it (pour started at 10am)
ok they only were able to test the mix after it went back to the plant and after we’d added 5 bags of portland to what was left in the truck (prob 2.5 yards had been placed) so who knows what the first stuff out of the truck was… the slump was way off even after 5hrs…
anyway the 28day test shows 3300lb and shows it fail’n spec’s …ie: 3500lb now i know thats not a big deal (the first stuff down has to be worse) and this is inside that will never see more than foot traffic… but it ain’t right and i have a $400.00 testing bill… I’m not tear’n it out so whats fair?
should the readymix folks pay the testing bill? should they offer me some type credit for the 8yds? should i just eat it? I know if i wanted to be an A-hole i could make em tear it out and replace it but i don’t have the time or need for that… I think I’m more hacked at have’n to babysit it til 3am alone on a jobsite that i should have been able to leave at 4pm…
I’ve never run into this before… I’ve never even had the need to have anything tested before… but i was order’n the same mix every other day for about 2 weeks and it was never the same any 2 days but this was load way different…
what do i do? i called the plant talked to the guy who runs it (he came out that day and was there when the guy took the samples) and i faxed him the results…
what happens on jobs where a mix is spec’d and it doesn’t test out?
thanks
pony
Replies
Don't know what they do on small jobs but on larger ones the pour and reinforcing would be jackhammered out and replaced. Of course big jobs have some float. If every other load was right and their service exemplary the GC might let it ride. As long as it was a small section.
Otherwise, as I understand it, the concrete company gets a bill. Likely they carry insurance for just this sort of contingency. Not sure how being friends works in.
Of course on larger jobs when they spec 3500psi they expect that or better. Some architects might let it go but it is their keister on the line if they sign off on it. Most want it corrected or a consulting engineer to come in and certify it. Mostly it gets replaced.
Sounds like a whole lot more water and not enough portland. IMHO it's going to shrink, crack and wear unevenly. Even under foot traffic. Might also be quite porous. Damp and/or radon is a concern around here.
I don't know where you are, but the quality of concrete these days can be real iffy.
Here on the West coast, there is an ongoing cement shortage and batch plants have been struggling to find fillers, like fly ash and a cocktail of additives to provide good product.
Locally we were getting good mud, but difficulties pumping it....or in one recent case, a large flatwork that, in 50-plus degree weather, sat for nearly 24 hours before it could be troweled!
Failure of a test, if the testing is a project requirement, means the out-of-spec concrete comes out. It's the suppliers responsibility to send what you order.
what's it for? ... application.
and
what's it for? ...sitation?
as in ... a customers job?
garage .. or what?
my thoughts .... if it was anything that could ever possibly no matter how small the chance come back to bite me in the butt ... it'd be replaced at their cost.
being friends ... I'd let them decide ... materials is a given ... but do they wanna pay my reduced rates or place it with their own labor.
unless ... it was flowing somewhere unseen under my own house ...
then ... I'd just remind the owner . ... "what if" ...
and hold that favor for a later date when I screwed soemthing up and needed the bail out.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Your question was "what's fair?" Since you are not tearing it out, I'd say the concrete company refunds your money for the substandard material and pays the testing bill. And be sure you let them know how easy they are getting off and how nice you are being to them for not having added a tear-out cost.
The concrete is one of the problems, the first one is that you have dealt with the supplier for 15 years. Like you say the driver is the son of the owner and you have a friend/customer relationship. Deal with them as a business, the product was not good it could have been a lot worse if the concrete had to be replaced. I would not pay the bill, it will improve your business relationship with them, because they will be more careful next time, which is what you want. Your friendship might suffer, for a while, but with continued business with them it will improve again.
If they tell you to punt find another supplier.
A true-friend will have no problem working with you to resolve this. A false-friend will have a problem. Talk to the supplier and get it replaced (whether it be with your labor... or with theirs).
Especially if it is for a customer... there is no way I leave it "as is". You have done the testing, and if it fails... you have a "willing violation" of "best standards and practices". Could open you up for additional problems beyond the norm. (in other words, you know for a fact there is a problem... and if you don't do anything about it... you have willfully ignored the problem. If there is a failure, you could open yourself for all kinds of very bad problems.)
Bidness is bidness. Friendship is friendship. Sometimes they complement each other... sometimes they are in conflict with each other. But a true friendship is made stronger by these kind of discussions.
concrete mixes are base on recipe of aggregate , water, sand and chemicals. This is what base the minimum psi in 28 days. The mix must be place in accoding with the recipe. Not too much water, not too much sand, same cement.If you placed the mix without adding water, concrete company is liable.Since you added cement to the mix, you change the recipe. The slab is yours. concrete company off the hook. It could of made specs without adding anything. The mix wil look different if flyash was added instead of cement and still made spec.
adding the 5 bags of powder which would be about 450 pounds cement. This should increase the psi greatly. The problem with the mix probable be a scale issue or water was added by driver.
I know it's not much consolation but the 28 day strength isn't the end of the story -- it'll carry on slowly gaining strength for a long time yet. I would expect there to be a bit of slack in the calcs for the strength needed too, which should give you a little more leeway.
IanDG
yes it will, it will still gain strength over the next 64 days, as much as 500 psi and contiune slowly to build. In five years it could be up around 400psi. but also you must remember the clyinders itself could be low.correct procedure
4 test samples. 1 (7 day) 2&3 (28 days) 4 ( hold for 56 days)
still fail, core slab 3 samples hold 1 for 72 days
still bad. ask engineer if acceptable for load, not spec but load factornot acceptable, jack hammer.
who pays. mix bad, no water added concrete company
mix bad, water added, contractorcustomer satfaction is not a factor, its all engineering calculation. got to get the human feelings out of it.although mix was 3500. building code for non structure slab is 2500
The thing that strikes me is that you said the plant is 7-8 minutes away. My house is 5 minutes from the batch plant, and they have delivered here on three occasions. I always shoot the breeze with them while the run the drum for another 15 minutes before we pour. I don't think a drum full of mud mixes in 5 minutes.
Doing another job with a lot of mud about 25 minutes from the plant. By the time the truck gets there we dump it immediately.
Last time I had concrete tested... spec'd for 3500 PSI. First crush was I think at 7 days at came in at about 4400, second was in 28 days at came it at 5600.
I want to be fair... so I guess the ball is in their court... I've faxed the results... it took 28 days to get to 3300lb ... 7 was like 2200... 14 day 2600 21day 3000 ....
1st....it wasn't me that altered the mix at the site it was the driver/owners son ie: the agent for the mix plant... who asked for and added the portland on site... 2nd after that it went back to the plant to be "fixed" that was the mix that was tested....
guess I'll check monday to see what they say and ask if they have insurance to cover it... Kind'a p'd me that when i told the plant manager ... first thing he said... was "really thats close enough" ie 3300 for 3500 mix... as i always understood it the 3500 was the min. not a "get close to" number
now... 3500 wasn't spec'd for the job... 3000 would have been ok... I spec'd the 3500 because it should set faster and can get a slicker /hard machine finish on it faster... because i didn't want to babysit it all nite... which didn't happen...
this pour happened to be in my unit (the unit i'm building for me in my loft project) it will be stained and scored and it's in my living room... a room that will see little or no traffic... so my real concern is not that it will come back on me... except for the poor wear...
what their screw up did cost me... at least 12 extra hours on site... the trouble of be'n p'd off know'n it wasn't right with the Mix people tell'n me it was fine... have'n to get the testing guy out on 10 min notice... the $400 for testing... and i really feel like they were try'n to save a few bucks by send'n me crap... I'm not worried about burn'n bridges if they get mad at me becasue they screwed up... thats not something I'd lose sleep over... like i said... it ain't come'n up... it's already framed over and I'm so far behind on this project no way would i fight that fight... but I think them credit'n me for the mix and pay'n for the testing is fair... but then we all have a different view of what "fair" is... my grand father us to say "fair comes once a year get your cotton candy then... life ain't fair move on"
thanks for all u guys input this was something i'd never run up on... but i knew it wasn't right
pony
I didn't even weigh in on the settlement issue, but it's definitely on them. Every batch plant has had problems with concrete going out wrong, and they expect to fix it. State your expectations and don't back down.
Once had an exposed retaining wall... three trucks... two with the color as ordered, one they forgot the color... ultimately the owner accepted a $1000 credit but the plant mgr. understood that he was taking the wall out and replacing it if necessary.
Whether or not they have insuranxce to cover the problem should not be part of the issue. Sounds like they are on the hook for a reasonable settlement ... to be determined by the customer. If you have it in writing that you ordered 3500 psi at 29 days, and you have a written lab test repoort that shows it didn't make that spec ... you're in the drivers seat on this one.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
"guess I'll check monday to see what they say and ask if they have insurance to cover it... Kind'a p'd me that when i told the plant manager ... first thing he said... was "really thats close enough" ie 3300 for 3500 mix... as i always understood it the 3500 was the min. not a "get close to" number"I would not ask about "insuracne". First of all the amount of "damages", sepcially if you don't want to take it out, is too small for that.What I would emphasis is the extra time (was it 12 hours) on the job and the $400 for testing to show that it was completely worthless and would have to come out.Those two items and your portland that they added to the mix at first is your real lose.
is the slab ok now, nice and hard, any cracks, etc.
As an electrician I'm no expert. But I have been around a bit.
IMHO if these guys are professionals, some aren't or don't act like it, they will have a a set procedure for dealing with this sort of situation.
Pretty good bet, as I see it, that this isn't the first time something like this has happened. This isn't a negative reflection on them. Reality being that if you you do anything long enough, like mix and deliver concrete or do electrical work, something Will go seriously wrong. Which is why people add contingency funds to contracts, maintain liquid assets and carry insurance for when it gets rough.
Key, in my experience, is to be reasonable and calm. Don't cast accusations and don't let them cast aspersions about how the load was placed. Try to be fair. Ask and maintain that your losses be made made good but no more than that. Aim for a square deal for all sides.
The customer deserves a quality product. You deserve to get what you ordered and to have your reputation for quality work protected. Either the company, or someone in their employ, has screwed up.
Possible a simple mistake. Perhaps the driver took the wrong truck, perhaps one that was getting washed out. Perhaps a simple mechanical failure. Maybe the mix plant had a mechanical fault like the portland feed auger failing. As an electrician who has worked on a mix plant I have seen this happen. Relay, control wiring or motor fails.
It doesn't matter what the cause is but it does help if your sympathetic while making sure the situation is made right. Sometimes people take a fault on the other side as a reason to pile on. They naturally, when faced with this, get defensive. Try to keep everything on a professional and unemotional basis.
Talk. Meet face to face. Be nice about it and expect them to be professional about it.
gotta couple quick questions for anyone who wants to enlighten me..
when testing concrete:
how many samples are typically tested?
are there typical intervals? (i saw posts with 7, 21, 28 days)
is there a standard size for samples?
im assuming some type of hydraulic press is used to find the breaking point?
just trying to learn a little bit here..
thanks
oak
Only time I did it... the city put a 'special inspections' requirement on the redline drawings returned to me with the permit, and they wanted a 7 day test and a 28 day test, so that's what they got. I had to give the inspector copies of the test results to get my card signed.
I did it once just for grins on some stuff I site mixed myself. For $35, they broke a 6x12 cylinder at 29 days. It tested 6390 PSI, more than plenty for a footing where 2500 PSI was required.
-- J.S.
4 samples are taken, 1 is tested at 7 day, and two at 28 days. if everything ok 4th is thrown away. if not its tested at 56 days.sample size depends on aggregate size. 95% are 6 x 12 clyinders but some peagravels at 4x8 and grout at 2x2 cubes.My small press will go up two 300,000 lbs, the large one will pull a #8 rebar in half. Most clyinder will pop at about 125,ooo lbs
Edited 3/1/2005 10:14 pm ET by BROWNBAGG
You're using that Mobile Ala math again Brownie. You said:
4 samples
3 at 7 days
2 at 28 days
1 to toss
3+2+1=6 samples
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
ok you caught me, I screwed up, totally. 1000 lashes with a wet noodle. it will happen again, no excuses, I am not worthly. I beg forgivness.
Well I'm curious as to what you reallly meant.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.