Why can I pretty well get what I want from electrician’s, but for two things? Last project I did, I actually put these in writing as part of the RFQ, then again to the actual jobsite team.
1. 3-way switches should be turned so that the circuit is OFF when all switches are down. i.e. if switch on wall A is down, and switch on wall C is down, then you know that the outside light is off just by looking at the switches. All switches on every plate are down (whether 3 way or standard), every thing is off. 3 ways can only be in 4 positions relative to each other, UP-UP, Down-UP, UP-Down, and Down-Down. Call them Even, Odd, Odd, Even. The “even” relative positions should be OFF, the “odd” relative positions should be ON.
2. Order of switches. On project I just worked as project mgr on, electrician wired 3 bathrooms differently. 3 switches in each one, Vanity Lite, Fan, and Fan Lite. In each of the 3 baths, the switches were all in a diffrent order on the wall. IMO, the second switch should have been the fan on all baths, the first switch = vainity lights, etc.
Why is this so hard to do right (or at least MY way?)
Thanks for the vent!
Replies
That's a good idea on the 3-way switches. Never thought of that. All up or down it's off, I like that.
My guess on why you can't get the electricans to get that right. They're not used to paying any attention whatsoever to switch location on 3 and 4 way switches. Easy enough to change though.
As far as switch order. It is much nicer if all bathrooms have the same function for each switch location. Again, most electricians wire for function not ease of use. I'm sure many don't even consider logical or consistent switch location.
Sure both of your complaints just get forgotten and overlooked when the switches are installed.
"3-way switches should be turned so that the circuit is OFF when all switches are down" Duh. Seems obvious to me. But I do have flip some over that others have installed.
Multiple switches should, IMHO, be oriented the same as the lights/fans they control. i.e. the closest horizontal switch should control the closest light, the most distant switch controls the most distant light.
Vertical switches can do the same. Lowest switch is lowest light (vanity), middle switch is middle function (overhead light?), top switch is top function (fan, whose duct extends above the ceiling).
P.S. never have more than 3 switches together. I was a year in a place that had 7 switches ganged together. Never did figure them out. Dang log cabins.
I hate to point out folly but your requirement that when both three way switches are up the light is on and off when down is impossible with conventional three way switches. Draw a simple diagram of the switches and the two travelers and alternate flipping the switches. Assuming a common orientation of the switches you can have the light on as long as both switches are in the same orientation. Both up or both down turns the light on. Alternately you could flip one and have a similar situation but with the light off when both switches are in the same position. With a conventional arrangement of a pair of three way switches these are the limits of your choices.
You could go to low voltage relays, a line current latching relay (I have never seen a low voltage latching relay) or any of the electronic control units, X10 is a common brand, to accomplish your goal. All of these options are much more expensive, less reliable and much more complicated than conventional three way switches. Expect to pay a premium on both the initial installation and any repairs needed later.
I have had customers insist on what you want. I even had one call in another electrician who claimed to have accomplished the impossible. The illusion held until I flipped the switch that had been previously unused. Suddenly the light came on when both switches were down not up. Having spent a day and $80 getting her way and attempting to point out my inadequacy only to have it shown that nothing had been accomplished she became quiet. I tried my best to be nice about it and discussed the available options at length. She seemed interested in alternatives until the cost was revealed. A short time later the problem became a non-issue. She got used to the situation and I saw her about once a year for minor problems, modifications or additions.
Your request for commonality in switch order is reasonable and easily attainable with just a little care and preparation. It is also easily corrected on call back. Not that a call back should be necessary as this would seem to be common sense and a mark of care and workmanship.
"I hate to point out folly but your requirement that when both three way switches are up the light is on and off when down is impossible with conventional three way "
Read orig post closer....in regards to relative positions of the 2 switches. Both UP would be off, both down would be off. Only when they are in different positions, one up, one down, would the light be on. When they are both down, you know the lights are off. All switches on all plates down, all lights would be off. (Both 2 ways in a set could be up, and light would still be off, but if only one is up....) Don't care about both being up being on, since it don't work thataway. Just down should be off.
"(I have never seen a low voltage latching relay)"
I am surprised that you have never run into these.
Yes, they are available. I uses a handfull when I built in 79 and only used them on a few circuit that I want to control from diverse locations. I did not bother with then for stairs and the like.
For houses that used them all over they also had master controllers. One was a mutliple position knob where you could select the circuit and then a monentary on/off.
They also had a motor driven one that would cycle through and turn on all of the lights.
I 'THINK' that these are the relays;
http://www.dale-electric.com/detail.cfm?itemnumber=RR7-EZ
But certainly not the best idea for new applications, but still might best for some applications.
As to the orginal problem I would post a 3x5 card in each bath, right by the box, indicating the desired
I hate 3 way switches just for that reason - You can't tell whether they're on or off. I like to reach for a switch and not really look at it.
What I'd LIKE to see is 3 way and 4 way swithes with little electronic servos in them. When you flip one of the switchs to the "up" position, a signal is sent to the other switches on the circuit so they flip themselves to the "up" position. Flip them down, and they all move to the down position.
Seems like with all the technlogy we have available this wouldn't be a big deal.
If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is it homeless or naked?
Automatic switch flippers aren't out, but you can put in one 3-way lighted switch. Whenever the circuit is off, that switch will have a little orange LED glowing in it. Then you can just glance at that switch if you wish to know if the circuit is off.
I use this on one circuit where one switch is not visible anyway. If the switch's not lighted during the day, I know the stairway light is on, and shut it off. Otherwise, the light isn't noticable on a sunny day and gets left on.
Every 3-way switch is installed "up" by the electrician who is not paying attention to your request. "up" means every other one will be the opposite (electrically speaking), leaving you with your "one up, one down for 'off'" problem.
One of each pair must be installed "upside down" (the wiring) in order for the two to "agree" (both up or both down for "off"). Or, to put another way, the two wires installed in the reversed order for one of the pair - it requires paying attention to the overall layout to do so correctly.
I have noticed that very few electricians pay attention to this (it would slow them down, and time is money) and am not surprised that even when specifically requested they still don't always do it. Remember that installing the devices can be done "blind", that is, as long as all the rough-in was done correctly the guy doing final doesn't really have to care what any switch is for, how it relates to another or what outlet is down stream of which (except for labelling downstream protected GFIs) to pass the inspection.
That does not mean that I condone it, just understand it. I think that any good contractor should take care to make sure that they did the requested items that you agreed to pay for (like oriented switches, etc.)!
The good thing is that this is a small detail and you can turn it over real easy. (but don't just 'turn over' the switch because that can put stress on the wires - turn of the circuit breaker and swap the two wires on the switch to 'turn it over to match its mate'.
The same can be done for the gang switches that you WANTED to be installed in a logical order (you did specify this on your electrical plan? If not then you 'agreed to take care of it yourself', I'm afraid). Turn off the breaker and swap the wires around until you've got the switches in the order that makes the most sense to you.
Note: "makes the most sense to you" is NOT a universal truth. There are situations that one "perfectly logical" arrangement is not the same for somebody else. Unless you made sure to specify a particular order on the electrical plans you can not really blame the electrician for putting them is the most simple way (and the guy installing is most likely not the one who you discussed all the details with during the planning stage, all the more reason to either be specific on the plans or plan on doing these details yourself after they leave.
:oD
Norm