I am new to this. Am in process of renovating 100 year old house, demolition of old kitchen and deck and adding on new kitchen, hearth room, laundry, powder room, mudroom, entrance, deck and stairs. Have gotten bid from best local contractor after 2 year wait to get on his schedule, and he has come back with a bid that comes out over $650 per square foot. Foundations are involved, as is adding central a/c, radiant heat for addition. His crews are very experienced and call backs from prior customers are minimal. Everyone loves his work, but I am dropping my teeth at the cost. While I realize you are being provided incomplete info, am I out of my mind? Other estimates–in which I had little confidence–were considerably lower, but I felt there were going to be endless add-ons and change orders to use quality materials. Your thoughts much appreciated.
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Where is the house located?
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
outside new york in suburban New Jersey
Well, someone may come along from that area. I can't comment, because I'm in a large but isolated valley of So. Calif, where the costs are radically different. Does sound like a lotta dough, tho! But hey, your positive comments about his work sounds like he charges what he needs to keep that high level of performance. Sticker shock is common in this business!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Bottom line is yes, in the ordinary course, $650/ft.sq. sounds like a lot. But what exactly are you building. What finishes? What other work is being done (100 yo house is usually going to need more than just slapping on an addition). Are the floors solid white marble slabs from Carrara? Custom cabinets with hand carved embelishments. Does the hearth include the complete firebox and chimney. Stairs curved and stringerless. On and on. Anyway, there's a huge variation so cost per foot is almost meaningless. What you are tackling are some of the most expensive parts of a house (kitchen, stairs, powder room (bathroom), hearth). I wouldn't look at it on a cost per foot basis.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
70669.8 in reply to 70669.6
demo of old kitchen,full foundationwith stone veneer, new kitchen and hearth room 14x 25, mud/laundry 8 x 10, powder room 6 x 6, mop 6 x 4, entry 6 x 9, covered porch 22 x 9, decks 10 x 7 and 4 x 7 with stairs. I make it around 800 sq. feet interior including reconfigured old kitchen. Others were 20-40% less. Your thoughts?
My thoughts. How about it guys. I'd do that job for $99,500.01.
Seriously Art, you're looking at over $500K for 800 ft.sq. If you gave me the specification in this message to bid on, I'd bid what you described. You'd have rough plywood subfloors, 2x stair treads, melmine cabinets, laminate counter tops, no appliances, no heating or cooling, etc., etc.
You already mentioned a concern about getting quality materials (not to mention workmanship) from the lower bids. Is there a difference between what I described above and what you expect to get? In the bids you do have, what is it that makes you think there will be (I'm about to swear) change orders, etc. in the lower bids (something must be tipping you off).
Top end materials cost top end money. You could spend $1MM in a bathroom or you could spend $10K in a full kitchen.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
your point's a good one. one estimate 20% less sounded like it came from the back of an envelope, and it had very little by way of specifics. Contractor hires day laborers and has not always stood behind his work, although he is known to be strong on structural, and this job requires some steel work in several spots to tie into old rubble foundation and huge beams. The other bid--the low one--used low end materials, and we could tell we were going to want to upgrade on most everything. The estimator was shifty and fast-talking and I checked to make sure I still had my wallet after he left. The guy we like does not compromise on workanship, and he's given us about 1/5 of the total in allowances.
Do I have to actually tell you that I think you have your man for this one?
You could spend $400K for a disaster, or $500K for creame de la creme.
Short Hills; brings back memories. I grew up a little further north in Bergen County (Allendale). Doubt I could afford to live there now, but it was a great place for a kid growing up.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
then there is no question left.You have to pay for what you want or pay less for what you will be disappointed in forever. Of course you know this but the thought of paying 100k extra is really nawing on ya. Stu
Well, there is still one question left. If Art would give a bit more detail on what he wants, maybe one of us who does high end stuff in his area would be willing to take a look at it and see if there is a way to get the $500K quality work for closer to the $400K price. Sounds like he is shopping for bids and has not given the job in any way, shape or form, so I don't see it as poaching on someone else's turf.
I'd look at it but I don't venture outside Phila. All that suburban traffic; I don't know how people stand it.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
$650/SF isn't so shocking- especially for a kitchen project in Short Hills. Let's face it- you're in one of the most exclusive sections of central NJ (I'm in Woodbridge myself), and if the interior is up to the standards of some of the homes I've seen in Short Hills, you're probably in the right ballpark.
You're also right that other bids could be 20-40% lower- they probably contained substitute materials, or missed scope. Renovation projects, especially with tie-ins between new and old, get very expensive very quickly- especially when you're talking about a 100-year-old house. I believe you mentioned a new central HVAC system- that alone could be $30-40k or more if it's got to be fished thru the existing plaster walled structure.
I wish I had better news for you, but if you're comfortable with the contractor, I'd say go for it- provided you're not going to over-improve the house for the neighborhood (doubtful up there, though).
Bob
Thanks for your thoughts. I figure if I go through everything they're doing, line by line and item by item, I may get comfortable enough to feel like it's worth it. To say I'm suffering from sticker-shock is putting it nicely.
I can't speak of additions, but in our part of NJ (I'm in Verona), a high end kitchen remodel (no bumpouts) will start at well over $150,000. I had central AC installed in two levels (2 zones) for $16,000, however because of the 1 1/2 story layout of my old house, snaking ductwork was very easy. On a 2 to 3 story house, $20k to @30k makes sense. A bathroom is going to exceed $15,000 easily.
I have spent $200,000 grand of your money and never got to the additions. There are a lot of bad contractors in this part of NJ, mainly because they can take advantage of the hot market. If this contractor is getting such rave reviews, and has provided a detailed estimate of what the extra $ gets you, then I say it is absolutely worth it.
Good Luck....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
How much of the existing house is being renovated and are you including this in the cost per sqft? How big is the addition? We've built a few additions that came in betwen 600-700 a sqft, though they were usually pretty small additions (read bump outs) with high end finishes.
When you say considerably less money for the other proposals, how much less? percent wise
demo of old kitchen,full foundationwith stone veneer, new kitchen and hearth room 14x 25, mud/laundry 8 x 10, powder room 6 x 6, mop 6 x 4, entry 6 x 9, covered porch 22 x 9, decks 10 x 7 and 4 x 7 with stairs. I make it around 800 sq. feet interior including reconfigured old kitchen. Others were 20-40% less. Your thoughts?
With out knowing a whole lot more specifics and seeing the job it is hard to say anything worthwhile.
You have mentioned that this particular contractor has a two year backlog, come's very highly recommended etc. That allow's him to charge a premium for his services and from what you have heard about this company, it sound's like that buy's you a top notch job and a sense of security instead of fear about how the project will turn out.
With the amount you are about to invest in your home I would want to be 100% comfortable with the company, it's references, and their process
That said, if you are as comfortable with a proposal that is 20% less, the company has as strong of a track record and references, the job is absolutely apples to apples, you would probably fair well.
Where are you located?
Short Hills, NJ
emo of old kitchen,full foundationwith stone veneer, new kitchen and hearth room 14x 25, mud/laundry 8 x 10, powder room 6 x 6, mop 6 x 4, entry 6 x 9, covered porch 22 x 9, decks 10 x 7 and 4 x 7 with stairs. I make it around 800 sq. feet interior including reconfigured old kitchen. Others were 20-40% less. Your thoughts?
There's a thread in the photo section (I think) with a foundation veneer that's probably close to your total cost.
Is it worth the price to you? Will it add that value to your property? Can you afford it?
You're in one of those rock&ahardplace spots that you could regret for a loooong time if you save 20% and don't like the results.
Any Contractor bringing day laborers to your house is basically bringing people he picked up on the street to work on your house.
The politics of that's a whole nuther debate, but is that the quality of work you're willing to accept to save a buck?
Joe H
"emo of old kitchen,full foundationwith stone veneer, new kitchen and hearth room 14x 25, mud/laundry 8 x 10, powder room 6 x 6, mop 6 x 4, entry 6 x 9, covered porch 22 x 9, decks 10 x 7 and 4 x 7 with stairs. I make it around 800 sq. feet interior including reconfigured old kitchen. Others were 20-40% less."
MY thoughts? If that's all the specs you gave me as your contractor, I think I'll run down to Kinkos and pick up a gross of change order forms. After that, I'ld give you a bid of $125ft, Then I'ld go to Home Depot and buy some lino, tile, paint and pressure treated for the decks. While there I'ld stop in their Kitchen design center and order a package from them, along with some windows and doors, prehung, of course.
Oh, you say that you want Sub Zero and equivalent, real stone veneer, some italian marble and tile?
High quality paint? Stain grade trim? Ipe` decks? Solid wood cabinets? Real wood windows and doors?
"What's it gonna be, boy?"
SamT
You'd upgrade to the lino floors and include fenestration, paint, and HD appliances for $100k? Sh!t, I'm always underbid!
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I'm subbing it all out.
I got my briefcase, I don' need no stinkin' bags.
SamT
I'm in Wanaque, NJ.
Where abouts are you?
$650 sounds high unles you are doing real high end materials.
That's a bargain compared to the Hamptons, I've seen modest kitchens done in Manhattan for $500k+. Like everyone else has already said, there are so many variables that determine price. The swing can easily be 50% and more between bids in this rareified market.
$1000
blue
I have not read all post. I am sure there are good suggestions.
My suggestion would be to get a home designer, architect or design / build firm to not only provide a full set plans but a through list of all specifications and builder responsiblities. You will need to pay for this sevice from any of the aforementioned service pros, but it is the only way to be confident all bidders are bidding apples to apples.
Take this ready to build set of plans and specs and have the project rebid. Given the same plan, specs and responsiblities all bidders would be required to meet the same level, and bidding apples to apples.
Try to eliminate large sums of money "upfront" and if there is a dowpayment, all future payments should be performance based, ie: finish the framing and get paid for the framing.
We are a design / build firm, insist on a full set of plans, specs and builder responsiblities prior to bidding. We can do the plans, specs and builder responsibilites or have them presented by the HO. We propose a price for our design work and guarantee a ready to build set design set for bids from alternate builders. The option is there, but we have never lost a project to an alternate.
We take no downpayment, only a mobilization (permits / port-a-potty / site prep / etc.) payment. We set up a performance based draw schedule, and do not draw until inspections for the work is complete. Our clients are very comfortable and we have been very succesful with this approach.
Edited 3/9/2006 4:39 pm ET by txlandlord
Try to eliminate large sums of money "upfront" and if there is a dowpayment, all future payments should be performance based, ie: finish the framing and get paid for the framing.
I'm in agreement except for this statement. Like you, we get a relatively small signing draw (I just collected $1,700 for a $107k project) but the payments start once work starts.
I have no desire to fund projects without getting compensated for the risk. Is you model primarily used in new home construction or do you also do a lot of remodeling work?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Is you model primarily used in new home construction or do you also do a lot of remodeling work?
New Homes. Professional subs and suppliers help. Our materials are on accounts and my subs are established professionals who do not expect or need payment each week, or immediately upon completion. Over the years I have filtered out the desperatos who need advances or immediate payments.
I have no desire to fund projects without getting compensated for the risk.
I do not see my procedures as financing, but simply the cost of doing business. If I wanted to sell motorcycles or popcicles , I would need to buy some to sell some. Sure, eliminate as many risk as possible, but there are risk with any entrepenural business. Client / banker comfort is important to me, and insures my future against the ultimate risk of not having work.
I am sure most of our clients would not mind more down money, but the banks pay for completed phases. Most banks allow one draw per month, so carrying charges as I may deem necessary must be calculated. One nice thing that occurs is that I work with several banks who allow me to create my own draw schedule (within reason).
I understand the value of what you are saying, and have done the same in the past, but we have grown and maintain about 20% of our average project total contract amount in cash for incidentals and special situations. In times of cash depletion or a new bank requiring a 10% retainer at closing I may ask for more mobilization funding, but we push the client to work with banks who know us. This effectively eliminates retainers.
Progress payments works for me, makes my clients comfortable and gives me incentive to get the work DONE.
I do not know it all, comments by ALL as to my business stupidity and better alternatives will be appreciated and considered, but consider I may choose to act stupidly (according to your judgement).
New Homes. Professional subs and suppliers help. Our materials are on accounts and my subs are established professionals who do not expect or need payment each week, or immediately upon completion. Over the years I have filtered out the desperatos who need advances or immediate payments.
I feel lucky that we've been able to develop a good list of subs, even though we haven't been in business that long. I would be that most of our subs could wait 30-45 days for payment but I choose to pay them quickly because I want to do everything I can to motivate them to work for us.
Sure, eliminate as many risk as possible, but there are risk with any entrepenural business. Client / banker comfort is important to me, and insures my future against the ultimate risk of not having work.
We rarely have contact with any bankers. Our clients use home equity loans or other sources to pay us (I'm guessing since all I really know is that the checks are good unless they specifically tell me) so the relationship is one to one. Having a bank involved injects some security.
I do not know it all, comments by ALL as to my business stupidity and better alternatives will be appreciated and considered, but consider I may choose to act stupidly (according to your judgement).
I'm not sure I completely understand what you're trying to say here, but if you construed my comments as derogatory that is certainly not the case, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
You have a right approach, pay your subs as quickly as possible. I try to do this also, and most get paid within 10 days of their completion. Most understand the banking game with new homes, and they are financially stable.
My commnet: I do not know it all, comments by ALL as to my business stupidity and better alternatives will be appreciated and considered, but consider I may choose to act stupidly (according to your judgement).
I'm not sure I completely understand what you're trying to say here, but if you construed my comments as derogatory that is certainly not the case, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.
I did not think you were attacking or derogatory, as is the case of some. No misunderstanding. I really do mean that I do not know it all. Most of our procedures have developed through trial and error over many years, and I still open to new ideas and methods from ALL who may have alternate and better ways.
Home equity loans, you must be primarily in remodels and additions, or other improvements to an existing home.
I have a doctorate in the school of hard knocks, starting as a frme carpenter in 1971, went through the remodel / additions business and worked my way to custom design / build. I am currently involved in land planning for my first development. If you ever have anything you think I can help with, do not hesistate to ask.
I lived in Northern VA from 1964 - 1970. Vienna and Alexandria. I went to the high school the that intergrated with the TC Williams Titans, which became the subject of the movie Remember the Titans.
Glad to hear we're both on the same page.
Home equity loans, you must be primarily in remodels and additions, or other improvements to an existing home.
Yep, up until recently we were doing exclusively additions. We have the possibility to build a new house and I'm looking forward to see how things play out. I can certainly appreciate doing one large job instead of 10 smaller ones (assuming that one job was bid correctly!).
If you ever have anything you think I can help with, do not hesistate to ask.
I will certainly keep that in mind. BTW- I can't remember if I've seen you over at JLC or not. I spend a good bit of time there, the "business" portion of the forum is much more active than ours here and there are more builders than you will find here. I'm sure you would be able to share some wisdom and gain as well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
JLC? I only visited once.
Problem, I have an addictive personality and Softpplan CAD. I am a member of Breatime and love it, and a member of a Softplan users group "Splash". I own a Case skidsteer and they have me in a users group. Add to this that I am a new father as of August 3 (see post New Baby Girl), my wife who runs our office has been unable to help as much as she did before the baby, I own 10 rental properties, I am an elder at our Church, oversee construction at the Church and our Christian drug rehab ministry, and I am trying to poorboy a new 100 acre development.
This may seem funny, but I already spend too much time on these forums and my responsibilities sometimes suffers. I will probably reconsider when my superintendent completes some additional school / training.
Considering my addictive personality, I am scared to make another visit to JLC.
I would like to interact with more builders, but I came up the hard way as a framer. I still get on my tractor or skid loader and pretend I am doing dirt work, both on homes and my property. I like the variety and interaction of craftsmen, rough boys and lets get dirty tradesmen on Breaktime. I still like to get down and dirty and recently framed the well house (with a couple of young bucks) on a Church propery as a donation.
New home? Need some consultation in privacy:
[email protected] / http://www.brotherscustomworks.com
I may find time for you in my spare moments between 1:00 Am and 2:30 AM, but it is getting warmer and I now need to find motorcycle time. Ha, ha.
Ok, I got to get to work. No, maybe I'll view just one more thread.
Edited 3/10/2006 1:54 pm ET by txlandlord
Artan,
When you initially said $650/SF my jaw dropped as well but when you explained later how much work is being done you illustrated how ineffective SF prices are when comparing remodeling projects. You might as well figure by the CF as the numbers will have roughly the same relevance.
Then later you said that this bid is roughly in line with other similar companies, I would go for it if you can get the money and the schedule works well. If their price was 3x higher than all others I would be curious as to why there is such a disparity, but I would bet that the guy who was 20% less will give you a project that costs a proportionate amount.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It seems to me that you should be specifying all of the finish materials, particularly all of the kitchen, powder room and laundry, plus floors and the deck. Perhaps even the HVAC.
THEN you get bids. Otherwise, I'm not sure how you compare the bids. Tell them more specifically what you want, or else you might end up with that stack of change orders.
Good luck!
To all of you--thanks so much for your input. My regret is that I did not specify more. However, it seems to me that certain conclusions can be reached: 1) quality can and will command a substantial premium, especially at a time of long waits and high demand; 2) low bidders can often be a false economy with endless punchlists and call backs; 3) costs vary substantially geographically; 4) "square-footage" thinking is not as applicable in renovation/addition work (vs. new), since estimates are better broken down by task, materials and labor costs and a fair mark-up, all of which our contractor was ready, willing and able to do; 5) the major consideration in a cost analysis is whether the costs could conceivably be recovered and in what length of time in a cooler real estate market, less the benefit of living in the space for, let's say 5 years to cover the payback. THe premium is probably not worth it for a payback of a lesser period. I'm belaboring all this to double-check my reasoning and also to explain why a high level of craftsmanship can be a very reasonable and probably even shrewd investment.
"a high level of craftsmanship can be a very reasonable and probably even shrewd investment"
Oh man, there's a rare tune that sounds some sweet music in my ears!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I'll second what Tex said about getting an architect to spell out the specifics and investigate the structural requirements thoroughly.
We're just starting a similar job, albeit in a lower cost area, and can say without hesitation that the larger the number of unknowns the higher the bid prices will be. Unfortunately the clients' architect didn't do his homework and many structural issues are not as drawn on the plans.