Is it alright to post/attach a contract that I intend to give a customer? Would like to see if you guys think it is over-kill or right on the money!!!
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Replies
I believe you'll be legally OK, as long as you leave out any names, addresses, etc., including your business name. There have been similar topics here, regarding contract language.
Here it is!
Can you convert it to a pdf and post it? I couldn't open it. If you can't convert it, email me and attach it as a doc file. I'll convert it and post it as a pdf.Open Office is a free word program that will give you the ability to convert your docs with one touch of the button. There is another great free pdf program that converts docs. Its called pdfill. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
How about this?
I think it's good. It depends on the kind of work, I guess, but mine looks similar and works well for me. I did find a typo.
Section 8: 'Meditation' instead of mediation. Not that I don't think it would be helpful, but it would be an interesting court interpretation.
You are the only person I know of that got that....legally I should probably change that ;)
If I were a homeowner, I would not sign that contract. Your ** is basically stating that the price can fluctuate. Your opening page seems to indicate that it's a fixed bid. That's a conflict to me. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I thought the same thing when I just glanced at it, but he states pretty clearly that if the price increases it will be because of unforseen conditions or changes and that they will be notified prior to any extra work being done.
It may be simpler and clearer to just have an unforseen conditions clause and a change order policy.
Great stuff guys!! I have only just added that clause in the last few months just so they are aware that I am not all knowing and can see through walls. I also go through the contract with them and explain I am not trying to "pull a fast one", but rather protecting myself and them if some new challenge is discovered.Thanks for the input, this thing is going in the mail today!!
If you haven't run this by an atty, it might be worth the cost. In MI anyways, there are certain items/phrases, ect. that have to be in the contract in order for your to be able to put a Lein on someone's home.Paid my atty about $300 to set me up with a proper remodeling contract and a simplified handyman work contract.He's a licensed builder and RE broker as well, so he's pretty knowledgeable in this business.I generally put together a 2-3 page proposal and then have a one page, double sided contract for them to sign.Julian
"It may be simpler and clearer to just have an unforseen conditions clause and a change order policy."Exactly my thought. KISS. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I am a strong believer in KISS, as long as it's not the band.
Edited 8/13/2008 12:13 pm ET by remodelman
mmm ... can't read it.
Generally, yes ... attach a contract to your bid ... is that what you are saying? Hopefully it will protect both you and the customer. If it is one sided, the customer will balk. If the customer otherwise doesn't like the idea at all, then maybe the wrong customer?
Try this...
I have started to mix my proposal with my contract....do you have separate docs?
Hi Bo,I've not really looked at the content so much as the layout.It's needlessly spread out and at first glance, a little hard to take in.You could also make it fit in less pages while actually making it easier to "read".I'd tighten up the first page quite a bit, eliminate all the annoying underlining in the middle - if you are going to underline, do it for a reason.At the end - use bullets instead of letters (or maybe even numbers...?) not sure why, but I personally don't care for the letters...Also at the end - get all that on one page - no need for it to fall into a 2nd page. Tighten up your spacing and use a combo of bold type, reg type and italic type to separate each of the tasks and their details.Some here might say - who cares? It's what it says that counts, but I think that the more comfortable to "read" or to even look at makes it easier for your clients to sign the dotted line.We're in a visual business - extend that vision in everything you show.
My comments may be somewhat related to the fact that I'm looking at this document on a computer screen, scrolling thru the pages. If I was to print it out, maybe I'd have a different viewpoint.Regards,Julian
Edited 8/15/2008 11:10 am ET by JulianTracy
ditto Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I tend to agree. I've done LOTS of technical writing in my career and if you want something quick and easy to read, looks mean everything. You've got a good start ... just do more of it. That's why I suggested a simple list for the price and the payment stuff. You can add a title to each letter, in bold to indicate what that letter is about ... e.g. LIGHTING, DRYWALL, FLOOR FINISH, ELECTRICAL ... just like a spec. Helps you account for each task/element. Helps the owner find and account for what he thinks he is supposed to get. Again, I'd separate inclusions from exclusions (even if there are none, you can state so ... also a good place to mention the irrigation ... not sure why irrigation would be part of a renovation, though).
Also,Your letterhead says absolutely nothing about who your business "is". The graphic at the top of the page looks like generic clipart and takes up a lot of room to no good effect. Create a "brand" and use it in every thing you show to clients. Even a simple classic type laid out nicely with your name, address, contact and tagline can be a powerful logo.I would also caution against selling yourself as the affordable alternative. You may well be affordable - but that is not how I'd want my clients to think of me. Your selling point should be your experience, your technique, your quality, your design, your cleanliness, ect. It is not in what you charge but in what you bring to the table that differentiates you from your competition. In that sense - you have NO competition.It's a very freeing thought to have that mindset. Granted, that may not bring food to your table but as a business strategy/philosophy - it makes sense and will direct and guide your marketing and communication with prospective clients.Julian
I removed lots of content so I could post it....I agree right now it looks like a "wet bird" or something and would never hand it in the way it is now. I do have some deep seeded problem with underlining and bold face type that I should address :)
I like the detailed breakdown much better. I would eliminate the asterisks and make that paragraph a standalone term. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I misunderstood. I don't think you have to separate them.
My personal reaction to the document ... I would include a better summary description of the work to be done ... in your example, I'm not entirely sure that this is a remodel or an addition and in general the scope of work to be done e.g. provide all work to remove partitions in existing office and install partitions to create 5 new rooms. To include and exclude work as follows ... A, B, C ... might make two categories: inclusions and exclusions to keep it clear.
Remember, I'm looking at this like someone who may never have seen it (e.g. a court). In the example, I'd definately include some drawings ... even a simple floor plan that shows the existing partition and the placement of the new ones, I think is important ... include details like outlets, switches, and ceiling lights/tile. BTW 2 walls in an existing space will not create 5 rooms, I don't think. Attaching and/or referring to the floor plan would be a key part of such an agreement ... the 'big boys' will ALWAYS base a contract and specs on a referenced drawing or set of drawings.
I would list the costs in a simple list summary w/ a total. The exclusion of light bulbs should be part of your specification list. You don't define 'payment schedule for subcontractors' for the lay client ... this doesn't mean much ... you fly over their head ... and don't say that you explain that to them before they sign it. This isn't a common term in the industry (I've never heard it), so simplify or define it. Permits might be an item on your cost summary. I would include some language like ... 'all work will be done in a workman like manner standard to the industry' (not just meeting minimum code which may not cover industry standards for finish work).
I'd do the same w/ the payment schedule ... simple list.
Your language implies this is not a bid and that there are LOTS of opportunities for changes in your proposed cost .... Owners tend not to like to hear that. With few exceptions, it should be a fixed bid. Define any exceptions that you might anticipate (e.g. finding a hidden 'surprise' that will alter the required work (e.g. finding a water pipe in the wall removed or discovery that the wall you removed is structural). These are probably examples that are too obvious, but there are plenty of opportunities for surprises that you won't/can't see. This is standard language ... discovering conditions not readily known prior to commensement of work.
As a client, I'd be a little uncomfortable paying for all materials up front ... you haven't even removed walls and preped the area for renovation. Also, you don't make a provision to pay your materials bills rather than walk off with the money. I had a supplier send me notice of right to lien my property if the contractor I hired did not pay his invoice at the end of the month. Initially this is VERY alarming.
You also don't have a provision for the schedule of the work ... yet it is implied in your payment schedule and estimated cost. Are you going to guarantee completion in two-three weeks? What if something happens? What's the result of not finishing? Penalties to you? Does he still have to make payment as outlined if your work isn't progressing? Also make provisions for a standard lien up front ... you may have no legal recourse if you don't ... check this w/ a knowlegeable individual (you may have to venture into shark infested waters).
Food for thought and for what it's worth. It can get complex, but you can also paint a concise accurate picture of what will be done and who's responsible for what without going off on the deep end.
Thank you, Clewless1!I am really happy with the responses, even though it makes want to throw this thing out and start over! I really like the idea of inclusions and exclusions and the drawing is something I have not done but will. On the in/ex list, I understand that is where you simply list what is included in the contract and, on a separate page, what is not? I realize now that I don't list how the work will progress. A "Job Schedule" might give me the place to do that as well as discuss unforeseen "challenges".So, in the end this is what I am thinking:
> Rewrite contract and make it more "reader friendly" >Separate my proposal from my contract.>Use all my legal beagle and the nuts and bolts on the first page i.e job cost, length of job, when will start...who, what and where.>Then include a job description i.e what is to be completed in an inclusions list and an exclusions list. Drawings o floor plan, specs of what is to be installed.>Include a payment schedule and remove subcon payment break down.i know there is some I missed and I will go over them as well. I have a big job coming and I need to write an air tight contract this week. I will post my changes and see if I have come closer to the mark..
Sorry for late reply ... gone all week w/ no internet connection.
Yeah ... they don't necessarily have to be on separate pages (in/out list). Just make sure they are labeled clearly. This can be critical and where lots of disagreements come into play. One guy thought the other guy meant to say he would do such and such and the other guy isn't at all on the same plane.
These can particularly include stuff the owner decides to do himself (e.g. painting, trim, carpet, whatever) or just stuff that you don't intend to provide that he may very well think is included (e.g. the irrigation you mentioned, I think). You could also include e.g. a budget for finish work ... e.g. $/sqyd carpet installed ... and then when they decide to upgrade, it's easy to give them the better stuff at the increased cost (good relations would not increase the cost of carpet over the retail difference in price, but some contractors may do this differently); if the cost increase doesn't affect your labor/work, you should consider giving it to them at that cost difference (IMO).
Your 'air tight' contract will likely have holes in it ... that you will not notice until you encounter them during the project ... ouch. It's hard to think of everything ... but if you give it a good try, it should be better than nothing.
Looking forward to seeing more. Good luck.
Thanks-I am writing up another big contract and I will send it along for your ideas this week~
Generally I think the contract is good though, but I have some suggestions -- just coming off the hip:
1. ".. Nor does it include; painting labor or material or any labor involved with installing flooring-both of which can be added at any time when colors and materials are decided**"
the 'both of which can be added at any time when colors..."
- Does that mean added on at the original contract price? Without making that clear this could be interpreted as such if not meant to be.
2. "...The contracting responsibilities include, but are not limited to..."
Why put the "but are not limited to.." in your contract? I always have to fight this temptation but the fact is that this is an open ended clause that can leave you hanging as it allows for loose interpretation. When do your responsibilities end? If you don't have some sort of limitation somewhere you will be made responsible for any matter of things you didn't intend, especially if this were to come to dispute and frankly, a contract is more about protecting yourself in the event of dispute. And where are the responsibilities of the other party?
3. "It is also my job..."
Are you a sole proprietor? I certainly hope not when dealing with any jobs over a couple thou. If you are set up as anything but a sole proprietor, do not put yourself in the contract, it is the entity that is represented as conducting the work and holding the contract. YOU do not want to be personally responsible for this in the case that you are sued do you? Putting such language in the contract could be interpreted as such. A lawsuit is brought against the entity contracted with, not you. Also, what if "you" or "my" is disabled or unable to perform or make decisions temporarily, who becomes the "me" in this? (that's more for you to think about, but it may effect contract interpretation if, god forbid something were to happen).
4. ". If any price adjustment is unavoidable and must increase, then you will be immediately notified and a price change form will be itemized with the description of work needed for your approval. **"
- What happens if they decide to not "approve" this price increase? Without any allowance on your part to act accordingly, you could be sued for breach of contract if you fail to continue without the increase as you do not state anywhere that you have the right to cease work should the customer refuse to pay for any price increases. Nor do you state anywhere in here that price increases unpaid or changes unpaid amount to a material breach of contract. It may seem obvious to some, but without the language, you leave it up to lawyers to figure it out. ALways, always, always have enforcement action stated in your contract. Without an adverse reaction in response to an adverse reaction on the other party, the contract has no teeth.
5. In 7 you summarize a general warranty, but it is so general as to again, leave yourself open to interpretation. I actually write up a seperate warranty, that I refer to in my initial contract that is given at the conclusion of the project. The customer of course is allowed to review it, but it is a seperate contract in and of itself stipulating very clearly the exceptions and exemptions and limitations of my warranty.
6. In number 8 you have conflict to be determined by mediation. DO you realize that mediation and arbitration can cost thousands of dollars? I simply place a statement that all parties agree that any conflict will be settled (if not settled otherwise, blah, blah) in the jurisdiction where the contract is signed, county thereof and state.
I also don't itemize or breakdown my costs, I include in detail what they will be getting and how much the total project is and also each phase payment. I guess with cost overruns, having a specific itemization could be a positive, but I have had many customers take an itemized contract and run me to hell with it. Maybe its just me.
I also would not include a solid time-line in each phase. What if you have problems with material shipments, crews or god forbid, a delay of payment on their part, or they stall on the change order agreement or there is some other issue, like weather? All these things can delay you plus any number of nightmares and who knows exactly how long a project will take. We usually have a general idea, but if its remodeling, we may be off by a week or so. I can see a customer trying to say that you breached the contract by not meeting your timeline.
The more you give them the more they have to hang you with. Every hole you leave open for interpretation is a hole you can drown in. Writing a contract is like making a loop and then closing it for each obligation set down.
Use active verbs that are succinct and determinant. Instead of "may be discussed" (as in your wording about an anticipated change), say if such and such occurs/arises/whatever..."a change order will be required." I mean really, would it not be required? Will you patch up the wall and forget about it? I think not.
You have a good summary breakdown of the project and I like how you state possible issues with each portion, that is good. I should do that as well.
What I include also in my contracts in almost every portion is a clause or two concerning the obligations of the owner/payee. If the two are different, then stipulation to each one's responsibility is made.
Is anyone living in the house while you work? What are the stipulations about safety? Are the homeowners allowed to walk around your worksite while you are working? With barefeet and a dress dragging to the floor? Do the kids get to experiment with your tools while you are gone? Do they get to play around the materials? Where have you and customer agreed to store materials? The dumpster placement? Where will tools be stored? Where can subs park? Do you have a toilet onsite or are you and your crew allowed to use the house john? Who is the primary person responsible for access? Who is the primary contact? Are there emergency phone numbers (cell phones) should something occur? Are you allowed on the property if the homeowners are away? At what time are you allowed to begin work and how late can you work? This also does not mean you will work every single day and night stated or come in every day at seven because Joe Homeowner said that's ok so he's out at the driveway watching his watch.
I know this sounds like a lot, but if the project is going to be intrusive you will need to have these details spelled out, if not in your contract, then with an accompanying information sheet that is adopted as part of the contract (which you have them sign off on as well) it just avoids disputes and bad feelings all around and gets the homeowner really considering the extent of the project and the interruption to their lives -- so they are ready when it occurs and you have minimum trivial complaints.
Thanks for the great reply. I have to get to work but will address your thoughts tonight. I can say that the contract comes from the Maine Atty General and is pretty standard( or least they would like it to be!) but you bring up some great points that I will look at tonight~
Unless the attorney general was a contractor prior I wouldn't be sold on contracts spitting out of their office. Considering the bureaucrats I've met in my time, I'd say their usual creativity/original thought scale is something on the lower side of the scale.Any bureaucrats here? Sorry, but shouldn't you be back at your desk typing a memo or filling out a form?Its never a bad idea though to take pieces of a contract (as long as its public information for copy) and incorporate some of the language as your own or at least sift out some ideas to use.
I agree. That's why I said I wouldn't sign it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Ok, I wasn't sure if there's any reason I shouldn't post mine, but it certainly can't hurt to have another one to feed off of...This is a copy of the contract that is separate from the proposal I hand out. The contract has a basic description of the project and specifically outlines the payment schedules.I live in MI, so some of this is specific to my area.Julian
Edited 8/14/2008 11:21 am ET by JulianTracy
Nice presentation. It looks and feels professional. And simple. Not too scary.Which clauses were critical elements to file a lien? Was it the licensing paragraphs? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Not sure, probably...I just added the non-refundable deposit clause as there's got to be some pain if they call off a job after it's been scheduled.Still working on the wording of that.JT
Is the biggest problem you think I should look at is the ** portion or something else as well.Thanks~
Ok. I have some time and will try to run through some of the points you made before I venture off.1) The painting portion will be an add'l cost to the over all bid. I will make that more clear.2) "Not limited to.." I put in because I knew I was not going to list each and every responsibility I have but maybe I should. I used this clause as a way of validating my 10% as opposed to listing all my duties....but I think I will change that to a clear list so they get the whole picture.3)I like the breach idea- I will institute that. Any recommendations on change order wording? This goes for my "**" as well, I want to make it clear that this is my best estimate, things often change and I want them to know that, as well as know I will inform them of all the details so we will have no big surprises. JimAllen doesn't like this section....any thoughts?4) the Warranty is pretty broad and I will change that as well.5)Time line, another good point, I will be more vague-but not too much;)6)Active verbs!!!7) I really like your addendum idea. This can give me more room to go over a lot of the stuff I do verbally, like where if the dog when you are not home, what areas are off limits etc.... good point.I thank you for your time and look forward to your thoughts to this reply~
I will and I'll look at the other contract someone enclosed. I'm really busy these next few days though, working on a deadline, unless of course I can't sleep when I get home, which seems to be occurring lately.