I’m suffering from a bad case of contractor burnout and wondering if any of you guys have any tips for coping.
I did a good size trim job this fall that really turned out well. The GC was way behind on the schedule and asked us to work overtime etc. to help get it finished on time. I negotiated some extra pay from the millwork company (I’m a sub and work on a lump sum basis for them) and some extra from the GC.
We get started on the job and the super tells me and my foreman/lead “Don’t worry about cleanup because I’ve got laborers here to handle that.†And sure enough he has 3 or 4 guys who spend most of the day sweeping up and moving materials etc. We end up working 70 hour weeks for about a month but, the job comes in on time. The cleanup guys are kind of a running joke with us, the drywallers, sparkies and the painters.
The client moves in, a few extras and punch items are completed and I turn in my final bill. I find out that the GC has backcharged the company I’m subbing from (my only customer for the last 8 years) a total of $15,000.00 for cleanup labor and labor to install a little blocking. A really special “Thanks for all your helpâ€.
The company won’t fight the GC on this issue since he wants future work and sticks me with the whole 15,000.00. I am stuck since I don’t have a lot of contacts in the business any more and really need the work from this company. I have 9 employees who depend on me for their living.
I’ve decided to just suck it up and go on but, I’m pi**ed off about this every time I see this GC’s signs around town. We’re doing a small job for them right now and I can’t hardly stand to set foot on the job.
Anyway, sorry about rambling on, any advice on how to get my head straight.
Replies
N F W....
did you sign any work sheets ? agree to any of those conditions
man... i'd hire a lawyer
edit:
<<<The cleanup guys are kind of a running joke with us, the drywallers, sparkies and the painters>>>
so.. did the drywallers, sparkies ( sorry ,gunner .... hah,hah,hah...he said "sparkies" ), and the painters get backcharged also ?????????
both of these guys are scumbags..
the GC for his SCAM...
and your contractor for passing it on..
time to vote with your feet.. you're just setting yourself up for the next screwjob...
bring your own vaseline next time..... you're gona need it.. and you'll deserve it if you stay..
these are dishonorable bastids... and you're enabling them
i couldn't take a $15K hit ... especially at this time of year
my experience of human nature says thes guys will get you again...
Edited 1/21/2005 6:14 am ET by Mike Smith
I know the drywall company got hit for more than me. I'm not sure about anyone else. I really don't know what to do. Like I said I can't just walk away. I feel responsible to the guys who work for me. But, I feel like I will get screwed again if I keep working for these guys.
Gotta agree that this doesn't sound right.And I think you actually mis-titled your thread.Shoulda read "Contactor Burned" instead of "burn-out". Really nice work, by the way. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Mike - you are too funny!
But everything you said is true...
Doug:
Maybe you could get with drywall guy and the electrician and/or whoever else is on the receiving end of this screwjob and come at the GC collectively. There is strength in numbers... Sounds like the GC was having some cost over-runs and decided to transfer the pain...
Be sure the GC's super knows your pain too. I'm a a super wouldn't want to work for such an outfit... BTW - is this a large commercial job or what? Matt
Yes, large commercial job. The millwork contract with my install included was about $500.000.00. I had originally planned to have a 5 or 6 man crew onsite for 4 months. We did it with 11 guys in less than 2 months. I am pretty sure that you are right about cost over runs by the GC. However, I also agree with Mike that if this scam worked once for them it will work again. Her's a few photos of the job. BTW it looks great if I do say so myself. I think the fact that it looks so good pi**ses me off even more.
Great looking work! Is that a hotel or what?
Really though, I think you are in a bit of a pickle because you did not actually have the contract with the GC. It would seem that in all fairness though, the company who you are actually contracted to should share a percentage of the burden.
I'd talk to them and if no comprimise, I'd discuss some new policies for trip charges, back charges for materials not on site, etc.
I don't have any expierence in comercial construction, except that the company I work for builds small apartment buildings and I hear all the "shop talk" from the apartment construction supers in my office and it sounds like a real dog eat dog world. Matt
doug... i used to work commercial.... it's fairly normal for the GC to have laborers doing clean-up...
but somewhere, someone, either has a piece of paper stating that this cost is going to be allocated to the subs, or they don't...
i don't know why your contractor rolled over and passed it on.. this being commercial work... the GC is of the class that likes to offload all costs .... if they can...
if it's part of someones contract language... i'd demand to see the language.. or.. it can become part of your group's suit in depositions..
IE: either they have the right or they don't... what are the specs you are responsible for ?.. ...
no.. the only way this could work is if the GC has the clean-up.. now the question remains.. can he pass the cost on ?...
do the other subs find it unusual ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What happened is that the representative, PM, for the millwork company would attend the weekly jobsite meetings. It would be announced that if the subs didn't clean up after themselves then they would be backcharged. He would walk through the job with me talking about problems, upcoming shipments etc. The job always looked spotless, for a commercial site, so he never felt the need to mention this to me about the cleanup. We never got a chance to do any cleanup since there was nothing to cleanup with 3 guys sweeping all day around us. I really don't have any recourse against the GC since my contract, mostly verbal, is with the millwork company. I've pretty much got to suck it up, my problem is that this is seriously affecting my motivation, even to go look for other work.
ok... so.... motivation ...
doug... you would be one happy clam if it weren't for the unanticipated expense..
let's ballpark...
15k / 300k = 1/2% or what was your total cost .....labor, labor burden, materials, ...
say 3000 man hours @ $30 = $ 90K.... plus burden say $45K plus materials $100K
looks like if you add a 2% contingency to your bids you'd have clean-up, portajohns & dumpsters covered..
if you don't get backcharged, you've got 2% to put in your rainyday fund
.. as for motivation.. go to staples.. have them make up a "completion of course " certificate... with gold seals... get it framed.. and put it on your office wall, you just graduated from the introductory course of "swimming with the sharks"
back to the job in question....
<<<It would be announced that if the subs didn't clean up after themselves then they would be backcharged. He would walk through the job with me talking about problems, upcoming shipments etc. The job always looked spotless, for a commercial site, so he never felt the need to mention this to me about the cleanup.
We never got a chance to do any cleanup since there was nothing to cleanup with 3 guys sweeping all day around us. >>>>
each one of those laborers had a sign on their back........ "i'm working for you"
there still has to be some accountability... how did you wind up with $15K
what was the total cleaning charge...?
how much was the GC carrying for his job overhead ?
are the subs absorbing 100% ? 150% 200% ?
is it based on your percentage of job costs ? is it based on the number of days you were on site ?
or... approach it from the GC's side.... how much money did YOU save by not doing your own clean-up ?
on my piddling little jobs... i provide the dumpsters... the subs take care of their trash..
some better than others.. we still have to provide all labor for daily & "super friday" cleanup...
i wouldn't dream of backcharging my subs... but if they make a mess.. i'll talk to the sub's boss..
but.. in commercial work.. it's all about the contract and who holds the power of the purse
but, hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Help me out here........
15k / 300k = 1/2% or what was your total cost .....labor, labor burden, materials, ...
15k is 5% of 300k. Where did the 300k come from? He said it was a 500k job.
say 3000 man hours @ $30 = $ 90K.... plus burden say $45K plus materials $100K
=235k Huh? I'm completely lost.
The labor for those cleaners was alot more than 15k, so he isn't getting banged for it all.
I might ask what % of the mess they cleaned up was my and prove it to me.
But that doesn't cure your math for me. Please enlighten me, I know I have a lot to learn.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Yes, I sub from the millwork (trim) company. My part of this job was about $100.000.00. We worked a total of 3400 hours on this job (lots of that at time and a half). So I did make a little on this job even after the backcharge. We provide no materials only labor. That's probably the weakest part of my business is that I have no markup on materials to absorb some of the slack on my jobs. I do agree with you that I should probably just chalk it up and move on. That's the part I'm having trouble with. We did save a little by not doing any cleanup but probably only 2 guys for an hour each day.
If you can walk away from this and still make a little money than do so. A lawyer will eat up $15,000.00 on this in no time. Take a good look and figure out what to do next hopefully with the least amount of harm to yourself and your crew. Good luck.
I know this is what I need to do. Thanks
Man, am I sorry to read this. Few things bother me more than these backcharging SOBs who seize every opportunity to weasel 1/2 of 1% here and 1/4 of another % there. They act like it's all fair in the name of "business".
Sorry Doug, but I wouldn't work with these people again. Life's way too short. The only way to deal effectively with folks like that is to start thinking and acting like they do, and I don't want to do that.
You obviously have higher standards of personal conduct and integrity than these dirtbags. Don't lower yourself to their standards so that you can keep doing buisness with them. "Better to light one candle than curse the darkness".
Hey Doug, I'm in central NC (Chapel Hill), and a trim sub, too. You do damn nice work. I mainly work for one contractor, also. I don't get contracts of your scope or money, but I can talk when there's problems, and, we then work the money out.I'd feel bad if were in your position, too. That particular GC needs to be straightened out by your millwork company. They are the one's that are really screwing you by not even questioning the backcharges, and then, passing them along to the subs. Seems ridiculous. On the other hand, you say you did make money, and have more work coming from the millwork guys. You sound smart enough to get the 15 Gs back...me, I'm coming to where you are and banging out 15 big ones for 2 months clean up...who do I talk to...LOLBy the way, where are you? Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Doug, if your going to be a business, then you have to act like a business. A real business man will fight for his dollars.
They're stiffing you for 15k on a 100k job...that's 15%.
You claim that you could do the clean up in two man hours per day. I agree with that, and I think most any judge or arbiter would agree with that too.
My advice is to submit a new invoice and ask for the full amount. Explain verbally that you think your share of the cleaning, which you never authorized would be 60 of your manhour rates. Explain that if you don't receive the full payment, you will be filing a lien.
Then, file that lien.
IF you let them backcharge you 15k for 60manhours of work, they will always consider you a wimp and you can expect a lot more of that down the road.
STop your whining, stiffen that wimpy back and get that lien filed..then get ready to stand toe to toe.
Then, be prepared to compromise and accept 12k as full payment.
Also, inform your mill that all your paperwork will now have to be more specific. Stop working orally with people that won't back up their word.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You should either talk with SHGLAW or go into biz for yourself and not do sub work unless it pays that great that you can afford to blow off fifteen grand.
Thats half "some" peoples salaries for an entire year.
I can't imagine screwing any of my help for a dime!
Be in court!
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I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
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Doug
If this guys get away with this it will happen again.
I've seen a similar situations and several different " Fixes". At least on involved violence. Where these guys possibly Union Laborers on site to appease the local business agent? Maybe the GC didn't plan for that expense and now he's found a way to pass off the expenses? Or maybe he just found a way to pad his profit.
Either way you need to set yourself up with options for the future so that if something like this happens again you can tell someone to " Go play hide and go F### themselves".
Was it in your contract to clean up and you didn't because he said he would? Did he put it in writing? If it wasn't spelled out in your contract I think I would have a talk with both parties, The GC and the Contractor explaining that you intend to see a lawyer. I'm betting that changes things a little.
Also, If this contractor is unwilling to go to bat for you after all the years you have been faithful to him, he lacks integrity and you need to move on. Soon!!!!!! He is unwilling to stand up for you if it might hurt his bottom line and now he thinks you are just going to roll over. If I were you he would be the first guy who was told to " Go PLay hide............... well, you get the point.
Sorry to hear of your bad fortune.
But I'm kinda like Mike Smith - That 15 grand would go a long way towards paying a lawyer.
If the GC gets away with it this time, he'll assume that it's O.K. to do next time.
I think Mike`s more upset than you are . <G>
I would be interrested in hearing from Jerald Hayes.
I was kinda in the same boat you are once . I bid a huge job finishing drywall for a primary contractor that put a lot of beans on my table. I priced the job "over the phone" in his bidding stage.
Two things changed .
His carpenters hung the job instead of the drywall company he always used before. I cannot describe how bad the nailing and screwing really was except to say that it was the worst I had ever seen and the job went "slick".
I always put on metal and charge per stick. I always had done it with him and everyone else. When I arrived on the job , the metal was installed. It was mostly crooked , meaning not centered up on the corner. It was also not tight leaving bulges I could not get a knife over.
I did the same thing you are planning on doing. I sucked it up and fixed all the mess with no back charge to keep this man happy . The only problem was that it was him stealing from me . There wasnt any other way of looking at it . I tried hard to equal it and it would not happen. "Theft by deception ", was the phrase I came up with and it looks the same with you. At the end of the job , I asked for payment . He didnt have it . I waited on it and did with out my self . Somthing like 90 days after several calls I got 80 percent of the quote over the phone.
I figgured it would always be something else with this guy and the work is hard enough with out worrying about getting paid . We should not have to be stressed about pay, only the job and our work. I took the partial payment and left quietly. I never would consent to working for him again and never did. He tried repeated times only to get , "Im too busy". He got the message and he has to live with it . He never said anything but good things about me and I credit that with the way I handled it .
Tim Mooney
I just skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was addressed....
You said you've subbed for only one customer for 8 years?? Wouldn't the IRS have "issues" with that? Seems to me that you are an employee and should be getting all the perks that such a position deserves.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Mo,
You are correct, if you only work for one client within the year, you arent a sub even if its your company, you are an employee... doesnt matter who says what, if it looks like one to the IRS, it is one. You and the 'employer' can get hit up years later for back tax and benefits, workers comp violations and all kinds of fun stuff.
"You are correct, if you only work for one client within the year, you arent a sub even if its your company, you are an employee... doesnt matter who says what, if it looks like one to the IRS, it is one. You and the 'employer' can get hit up years later for back tax and benefits, workers comp violations and all kinds of fun stuff."That is not true.It all DEPENDS on the total circumstances.For example does the contractor tell Doug who is can have on the job or direct Doug's employees how to do a specific job.Questions like that also goes into the mix.
Totally agree- I'm sure McDonnell-Douglass gets 1099'd from the Feds for building fighter planes for years without working for anyone else. It's not like the President is telling them how to build them!
I think Doug C. is allowing the millwork company to screw him. Issues with the GC are between the millwork co. and GC, not him. Seems to me the GC started thinking he got screwed paying 500K for a job that was cranked out in 2 mos so he went to the millwork company trying to get something back. He did get something back, so he wins and so does the millwork co- they kept their big customer happy and it didn't cost them a dime! They didn't even loose the sub-contract finish guy they like! The millwork company probably thinks Doug made enough without the 15K they took because he never really got in their face. I say 2 good business guys, 1 to go!
The nine guys you have working for you seem to be a very good crew. You are already set up with a business, a good crew, and more potential work. The 15K is the least part of the problem. The thing affected is your morale. Think about the crew. Keep them working. You will have the opportunity to get your money back.
It's kind of like getting cataracts - life gets a little darker every day.
Looks like somebody passed on a loss to you. The pendulum will swing back eventually. If you subtract what your crew would have been paid for the cleanup time, including your overhead and so on, you will find that you have not been screwed for the entire 15k. Maybe you only have to get 10k back to break even. With the money you are making, that should not be a big hurdle. No sense in your crew losing a job over that. They would probably lose that much collectively if they were out of work for one or two weeks. Pretend you gave them a $10k Christmas bonus.
Remember the old saying going forward:
Fool me once, shame on you - Fool me twice, shame on me.
Also remember: Revenge is best served cold.
If I'm not mistaken, you are actually working for the TRIM COMPANY, who in turn, is contracting with this particular GC. If this is so, then you need to talk to the TRIM COMPANY that you are working with/for.
Let them know that if THEY take on more work with this particular GC, then your price for the work your crew is doing is going to increase. Find out exactly what formula was used to charge you the $15,000.00 and use this formaula (plus an extra percentage to cover a possible increase in charges by the GC). Just let the TRIM COMPANY know that the cost of doing business with this particular GC is going up. Maybe THEY will increase their costs, or eat the extra costs themselves. Either way, it will be between them and the GC, not you.
If you don't say or do anything, then this WILL become the standard method of doing business with this GC. Don't let this be a carrot dangling in front of you, and don't let these guys use the work on their jobs as leverage against you. I've seen your work, and you are more needed by them than they are needed by you.
A simpler way of looking at it is this: When working for this GC, you now have extra costs involved in the work. So now all you have to do is to figure how, and to whom this extra cost is to be passed on to. Then, stick to your guns and your price.
One ther thing... you said MOST of the contract is/was verbal - start getting things in writing, and stick to the written, not the verbal.
Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
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Thanks, that is what I think I need to hear. I do have an excellent crew and need to get past this. I am trying to keep this all in perspective and keep this business going. We will make this money back and if this makes me a little smarter then that may actually return more than it has cost me. Maybe it will force me to raise my prices just a little on all the jobs.I think it aggravates me so much because it really brings home the fact that doing a good job with the actual work just isn't enough. Everyone working for me on this job did great. I'm the one who didn't take care of business and I paid the price.
Mike and Les are right, you just need to pull your boot straps up and move on. And when the GC aint looking put your left overs from lunch in the drywall and crap in the tubs before the plumbings hooked up. You know. Things that help you get over it.Who Dares Wins.
Doug-
Please check my message #29- thread got off on another subject (who's a subcontractor vs. employee). Become the third smart business guy in this loop and tell your millwork company to pay up and next time an issue about your money comes up, tell them not to make any assumptions on your behalf. If you tell them tactfully that if they don't pay you the balance due, less a reasonable allowance for what it would have cost you to cleanup (if you weren't going to do it personally and keep the savings for yourself), you'll no longer do their installs. Seeing the work, this would almost certainly be a problem for them. Furthermore, any referrals this job generates is obviosly going to want the same installer and the millwork company knows he can't fake that!
Be prepared to walk and let the millwork company pay what they already know they owe you.