Copper pipe removal from slab floor
luckymudster
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I have to remove some old copper pipe from a slab floor. It is part of a radiant heat system installed in the late 1960s. I believe the piping is thin wall 1/2″ copper and is about 3/4″ to the top of the pipe from the top of the slab. It is a hot water system and is beginning to fail. Pin holes are beginning to show up. This will be an on-going project as it is in a 20 unit apartment complex. My plan is to chip it out using an air chipper that I will run from my compressor.
Does anybody have suggestions as to what brand of air gun would be best for this project? How much gun I will need? What chisel/point style(s) and size(s) would be most appropriate? Anything I haven’t considered????
Thanks.
Replies
Why remove it? If you want to imbed new tubing, use a saw/miller to cut new groves. The old tubing won't get in the way.
The owner wants to repair leaks as they arise. He doesn't want to replace the tubing wholesale. Did I mention that the apartments are occupied?
The owner is foolish, especially with mold litigation costs, rising energy costs, etc. Once this has started pinholing, you know there are leaks he is not finding for awhile yet. So the ply subfloor is rotting as we speak.Io stop and think - how much of all this liability for patching a hot air balloon in flight are you willing to assume? A chipping hammer wioll probably help you do the job, but get the money and run. In other words, make sure you havve warned him and put a good disclaimer in the work order.
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Yep, he is foolish. On the other hand, I work for him regularly (last 3 years or so) doing various projects, his checks never bounce and he never complains about cost. Is he the ideal client? No, but I've never had a serious issue with him. He's a bright guy (he's the poster boy for bright and foolish not being mutually exclusive) and the apartment complex, along with another 50 unit complex, are "pet projects." His family built them.In any event, its is what he wants to do and he pays well with no problems, so I'm willing to go with the program.Any suggestions about brand of hammer and sizes/styles of bits?By the way, I like "patching a hot air balloon in flight." Good analogy that made me chuckle, and boy am I glad I'm not up in the air in it. It just appears to be me. Must be my Doppelganger.
"His family built them."that explains a lot. It's inherited!LOLI have a Makita, but you might want a Hilti. It'll be smoother and quieter which is good since you'll be doing a lot of it and there are other residents to consider.Really, copper should never have been exposed directly to the heavy alkalii action of the crete. I'm betting that for every hole you find and fix, there is another one you don't know about. Sometimes in normal installations, a pipe might have a weak spot where erosion makes it start leaking ten years before any other spot in the house, but in this scenario, the crete is /has been eating the copper for along time.you've got more patience than I do.
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suppose he may have gypcrete???
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probably, but copper still doesn't belong bareassed there.But He might even be able to do it with hand tools...Naw! He'llbe doing too much of it for hand tooling.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
that repair is a life time job an then some...
the repairs will have repairs..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
suppose he may have gypcrete???
Be willing to bet it's older than that, so it might be old-fashione "lightweight" with perlite added. (Gee, let's not test that dust . . . )
Given the latest info, that the owner (not OP) had this done as a family job, given that sort of "luck" for OP, I'd guess that the 'crete will have an atypical Ph, to help attack the pipe, and is also laid on untreated plywood (the better for the ply to "wander" tiny leaks all over the place).
Or, maybe it's just my relationship with Murphy in similar straights (like living for a decade under a 1" LWC slab on untreated ply).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I have to agree that it explains a lot, but he didn't actually inherit it. It's a family corporation and he's the managing partner of these two complexes. There are several others complexes managed by other siblings, and from what I hear they make even worse decisions (if that's possible).I also agree that for every leak that rears its ugly little wet head there will be at least one more that hasn't been detected yet. On the other hand, my guess is that when it was built we (generically) simply didn't have the knowledge we do today. Being as generous as I can, perhaps pops, who actually built the complexes, simply didn't realize what the upshot of embedding copper in crete would be.As for being a patient guy, I don't yet know just how long I'll be able to put up with it, but at this point, I look at it as job security!I was leaning in the Hilti direction, but no breeze had blown to actually tip the scales. Thanks.
What's the plan of action?
Tenant reports damp spot on floor. You pull back floor covering. Chip out concrete floor around leak. Find the pipe. Find pin hole. Drain system. Chip out more floor to cut pipe and make repair. Charge system. Check for leak free repair. Patch concrete floor. Reapply floor covering. Wait for tenant to report damp spot on floor 2 feet form first repair, repeat above.
Or
Are you going to replace the entire loop within a room/unit while you have it shut down and can replace entire loop with a material suitable to be within concrete?
TFB (Bill)
The plan of action is essentially option 1, piecemealing it. Yep, pretty crazy, but the guy paying the bills (i.e., my checks) helps put the bacon on my table, so, frankly, I'm happy to proceed as he wishes. We'll see how much time I have for other work I do for him. The most recent project has been putting washers and dryers into each of the apartments in one of the complexes.
Go with a Hilti mid size with hammer and/or drilling action.
Well, it seems the Hilti breeze is increasing in velocity. Thanks for the input.
shoot man,
In this area all you would have to do is leave the door open and some "crackhead" would come in and steal all that copper right out of the slab- problem solved!!
Oh, yea man, where's my pipe??! Oh, it's copper pipe!! Well, what the heck. LOLGood call, but I fear it would be too much work digging the copper out of the floors. Nice thought tho!
If you agree to do this, you're as big a fool as he is, because it's going to do much more damage to your relationship and reputation than refusing to do such a half arsed, overly expensive, poorly thought out, STUPID task.SamT
Perhaps the best angle would be to show him this thread. You were just asking for tool advice and everyone sees major headaches ahead. The plan in place is faulty.
Replace the whole system in each unit. Maybe have a unit set aside to house displaced tennent during redo.
Probably best to abandon existing and go with baseboard or pex Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
We have had discussions about the potential (definite?) repercussions of this approach (I, too, see the headaches down the road), but he simply feels this is really the way to go. So, here we go........
It's OK, the first one you try, in order to get the copper clean enough to solder, it's gonna be to thin to solder.SamT
Yeah, if the tubing is really imbedded directly in concrete, I'm skeptical that you can successfully free up a section without damaging it further at the margins of the hole.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I hear you, what the boss wants....
My only knowledge of a similar situation is a friend that had in slab domestic water.
He broke his slab up 4 times for the same 10' run of copper. When it starts to go, it goes. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Is he using a corrosion inhibitor in the boiler?What about a stop-leak product? The Nautilus went under the north pole with it's "radiator" filled with Barr's.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
This is, hands down, the craziest idea i have ever seen in here. You have to be pretty desperate and damn near out of your mind to do this job.
This will not end on good terms
Edited 9/13/2006 1:06 pm ET by mcf
You would be well advised to get an infared thermomiter, the tool of choice to find leaks in slabs. Here is a little info -
http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/page35.html Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
You seem all to willing to let the property owner continue to "put bacon on your table"....A very shortsighted approach.
As the contractor, (as you aren't a payrolled employee), you are obligated by law to "do what's correct and proper", not what the customer wants you to do. You are going into this KNOWING the repairs are going to fail...KNOWING that it isn't the correct way to fix the problem. Basically, you are agreeing to be a hack.
When one of the rotten subfloors falls in and injures someone. When someone is diagnosed with a resp. or lung ailment linked to that apt. building. When one of your hundreds of repairs fails and destroys a few hundred grand in property. Then it will be you, as the contractor who knowingly hacked the job, who will be held responsible by the judge.
Are you really willing to put your future on the line for this cheap sob?
Do you think he is being set up?
No...he's just working for a guy hellbent on tripping over dimes to pick up penneys.
But... I personally know contractors, who were coerced into performing work they knew was inferior or improper, and when the job went south were held liable in court.
Tenant reports damp spot on floor. You pull back floor covering.
Isn't this 'crete on plywood?
So, isn't it more likely "Tennant reports drip from ceiling"?
Which then requires Indiana Jones to search for true source of leak . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Indeed, the folks downstairs will be getting it from both ends.
TFB (Bill)
Indeed, the folks downstairs will be getting it from both ends
Well, having been witness to WH drips on floor, but cracked LWC dripped that down to ply deck, which then followed a low spot between joists off to leak near a bedroom . . .
Which was all discovered, in reverse of the above order . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Be sure to train someone to take over the project when you retire.The owner needs to be informed that he'll end up spending huge amounts of $ over the long run if he thinks he can patch it bit by bit, far more than dealing with the real problem: the system is doomed to fail.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
is this slab structural?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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No, the slab is not structural. It is poured over a plywood subfloor, 3/4" I believe. The floor rests on 2X10 joists. I don't know how thick the slab itself is. Of course the ground floor isn't joisted. I don't know if it has any subfloor. I don't see why it would, but I wasn't the builder so I can't be positive.
You're planning to chisel out all the pipe in the slab?
You might want to think about switching to baseboard heat.
If you're thinking air chisel, think big compressor, 5 or 6 CFM @ 100PSI or more. Think about needing new hands too by the time you're done, along with a new azz, as you're going to lose yours on this job.
Joe H
As I indicated initially, the project is to repair pinholes as they arise, not replace all of the tubing wholesale.
One word: Baseboard!
Good luck on your new full time job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I suppose you'll find out once you start.
The pinhole you fix will have friends, your hammering on the floor is going to pissoff the others.
Have fun.
Joe H
bingo!
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
If you're thinking air chisel, think big compressor, 5 or 6 CFM @ 100PSI or more.
triple that and maybe it may be a start...
why not a rotary demo hammer...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would find a 'good but disposable' circular saw just for this work and get a few diamond blades for it. I have made repairs on radiant lines before this way, but never on copper.
It sound like the perfect job to hire an endless stream of college students to do. With emphasis on endless.
Baseboard has been mentioned. Another possibility would be sandwich.
The guy seems scary to do work for.
I think I just figured it out. It's actually quite brilliant. "Hunting for leaks" room by room is just a cover -not to mention a sure fire way to drive the occupants from their apartments one by one with the incessant hammering and sawing. Once all the meddling tennants are gone, the caretaker and old man Appleby can get back to the REAL project: The hunt for the missing pirate gold!
I saw the same thing on Scooby Doo. :>P
Wouldn't it be easier to just dress up in a ghost costume?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
yea...how exactly do you plan on 'patching' the leak? If you're soldering a new segment, as others have said, it sounds near impossible to actually get a clean piece of pipe to attach the patch too.
I'm thinking the first apartment you do this in should be unoccupied, or at least a situation where you can have it torn up several days.
Do you have a metal detector or some such to locate the pipes? Can the room or at least the apartment be disconnected from the overall system while doing the repairs, or do you have to shut down the whole system? (Note that simply turning off a temperature control valve isn't sufficient -- you've got to totally shut off the grid from both ends.)
If only it would be easy to thread small-diameter plastic pipe thru the system (by using a strong shop-vac pulling a line that's attached to the pipe), then all your problems could be solved, eh.
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.