I searched through the archives and didn’t see anything on this. How do you handle framing/flashing a cornice return when the gable is to be bricked? For a smaller return I could see how you could run a piece of fascia up to the rake and then there could be no brick above the return. But what do you do for a larger return (say 3’) when there will be brick above and below the return?
Thanks for any help
Regards,
Dennis
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Replies
Djj, we generally leave a pocket for our brick to slide behind our cornice. The flashing is installed when the roof goes on, and it eventually lays against the brick. Later, it is counterflashed.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Djj, after rereading your question, I now understand your dilemma. You have a 3' return with brick essentially running behind the return. That won't be too much of a problem....just build the return with brick blocks spaced out. The brickies will brick up to the return, then simply drop some mud and bricks between your brick block until they can start laying their couses again. The only thing you have to do is leave them some room to drop their stuff through. If that's not possible, they'll have to brick up to the return, then use a lentil to carry any brick that is above the return.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Thanks for your reply. I am not sure what you mean by 'brick blocks'. Do you mean that the cornice return would be offset from the gable wall by approx. the thickness of the brick, but still attached to the gable by spaced blocks that would allow the masons to run enough brick behnd the return to bear the weight of the brick above the return? (Man was that a run on sentance)
Then for flashing do you have the mason add some flashing below the first course above the return to overlap the top of the return?
Our problem is that we are about done framing and ready to start roofing but won't be able to lay the brick until spring due to the temps here in Iowa without heating.
Thanks again for your help.
Dennis
DJJ, you are interpreting my post correctly.
Heres a coupla pictures.
They might be similar to what you are doing...but the general idea is the same.
The hip return with a box end is shown standing. The "queen anne" is shown built on the ground and is lying flat.
I have a few additional pics of this situation if these are clear enough.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Since you are leaving 4.25" pocket for the brick, what do you use on the gable to seal up the area between the inner facia board and brick if the brick butt up against. Gotta keep them bees out ya know. I hate bees...
Thanks,
Dennis
Sorry DJJ....I don't understand where the bees are getting in.
All the brick racks are 4.25"....on the wall and on the gables.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Well them dang bees can get in through a pinhole if they know I am inside :) Sorry... childhood trauma with giant wasps in my mom's hillbilly relatives outhouse.
I wasn't thinking when I wrote that; I forgot about the air space behind the brick in the 4.25".
Thanks again for all the help.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis, the masons don't lay any flashings. The roofer provides flashings over the roof, and the masons just tuck their bricks behind it. Later, someone has to counterflash...sometimes...not always...depends on how much brick is exposed. Sometimes the first flashing is the only flashing....whatever it takes to ensure that water doesn't get behind the frame and brick.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Thanks for the reply and pictures. I appreciate it. I think I have a better picture now. So for my 36" return, my framers need to add enough blocking behind the return to offset it from the gable wall by about the depth of the brick plus any air gap behind the brick (say 4.5" total"). Do you just nail this over the wrap?
However I am still not clear on how you would flash where the top of the return meets the brick. Any pics of what you have done there?
Thanks again!
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis, I cant show anything too good but heres a pic that might be helpful. Too bad the trim is dark...so is the step flashing.
I left the picture big so you can maybe see the flashing better.
If you cant, I'll circle it in a paint program.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
They got Stock Building Supply there in the mid west where you live? I saw it in the pic on the house wrap. That's one of the ones I use here in NC. Stock must be bigger than I thought. Matt
Stock started growing in the early 70's and never stopped.Their lumber lags behind most smaller sized builder yards.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Dennis, we use 4.25" for our brick pockets. We accomplish that using a 2x4 block attached to two strips of 3/4" material.
Actually you can use anything.
Also...keep in mind that your 36" return will get apron flashing...not step flashing. They usually don't put the apron flashing on till the brick is done. If I were you, I'd create a temporary apron flashing to cover the hole till spring...then telll the bricklayers to tear it off and toss it. I'd tape the temp flashing to the building wrap with tyvek tape.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Very clear now. Thank you very much. Earlier when I mentioned the mason installing some flashing, I was thinking of something like this:
Regrards,
Dennis
Ahah! I've never seen that type of flashing over one of our roofs/returns.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Thought I would give you an update on my cornice return dillema. Told my framers today what needed to be done and by the way they were pi$$ing and moaning you would have thought I told them I needed a whole 'nother story built on the house. And this was just for offsetting the cornice return, not the whole frieze and everything like you did in your pictures. Want to come to Iowa and whip them into shape?
Thanks again.
Dennis
Hehehehe...
DJJ, when I first started building those queen annes, I was as confused as your crew. I remember the first one that I had to do. It was on my own house and I couldn't for the life of me understand what needed to be done, even though I could step off rafters. I remember my mentor looking quizzically at me and asking "what don't you understand?".
I didn't understand that I was building a hip roof with a 1' run and total length of 32"!
I really didn't do too many until the late 80's. I got into a sub that had them on almost every house in one form or another. I also remember the day that I managed to put two together in 45 minutes, using the patterns from the garage that I had saved.
Now, I can whack them out in 1/2 hour blindfolded, with one hand tied behind my back (I'm lying).
True story....In 1989....I was framing some big customs 5000sf or so. I was short help and had to hire a guy that claimed he could do the cornice. The first week, I had him build the front garage wall...and it had a queen anne on both sides. The first day, he took ALL DAY to build the first queen ann. I was depressed because I was so short of help that I couldn't downsize him...because the builder was putting pressure on me to have "more guys". I figured...what the heck....he'll save a bunch of time tomorrow because he'll be familiar. The next day...same thing...8 hours for one queen ann.
I was more depressed than ever..but the next day, the guy never showed and he never came back.....and to this day, I still owe him about three days pay...but he has my saw and cord!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Oh No they aren't confused how to build the cornices, they did that last week when I was out of town for the day. Of course they built them flush to the wall. We had already went over how we needed to leave room in the soffit for the brick but it never occured to them to do it for the cornice return. Now they are ticked because I want them to rip off their cornices and build them the right way. They were coming up with all sorts of ways to get around redoing them, most involving twine and duct tape. I may have to make them up myself this weekend and just tell them to put them on Monday so I don't have to listen to them complain. Now you see why I need you to whip them into shape...
Cheers,
DJJ
I understand now DJJ.
YOu can let them fudge it. Just cut back the returning fascia. The brick will tuck behind that. If there is a frieze, just use that as your 3/4 lacer and add 2x4 to it. If no frieze, just add a brick rack and frieze...of just shoot on a brick mold made from 1x1 or 1x2.
Aw hell...it won't take them that long to tear it off and start over.
What is the return made out of right now?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Here is a picture. The current returns are made of 2x6 and OSB. If you look over at one on the right side of the garage you can see how they framed them. There is a piece of 2x6 nailed to the sheathing that runs all the way across the back of the return and extends out to meet the fascia on the side.
I will see if we can rig something up for the brick. I would rather have my framers spend time getting the house dried in instead of messing with the cornices; but I want to keep my brick/stucco guy happy too.
Regards,
Dennis
How wide will the frieze board be that runs up the rakes? I'm talking about the outer board of the brick pocket that the boxing and siding guys will install. It's hard to see much detail in that pic, but I'm thinking that there may be little/no brick above the cornice return to worry about. How about a close up pic of a return with a tape measure or something in the pic to give some scale? You could just take a very hi res pic and use some of that fancy photo manipulation software to cut a cornice return out of the pic and end up wit h a close up.
Or, how is the cornice return shown on the front elevation on the plans? What is on the plans is often not exactly what actually gets installed, but it is an indication... Take a pic of that too.
Matt
Edited 12/15/2004 7:04 am ET by DIRISHINME
Dennis, the pictures aren't too clear but it seems like the entire overhang system is wide open at this point. That makes the "fix" real easy. All your guys have to do is cut the plywood off of the return roof at the 4.5" face line of the brick. From below, the brickies will just lay up the brick right through your returns and the brick will emerge from the top as they get over the return roof.
I've only built one house without frieze's in the manner you've built yours. (NIce looking house by the way!). I hate to say it...but that was a total disaster. It wasn't anything I did...but it was a disaster. I'll explain in a minute.
We always put frieze's on under the soffits and under the gables. The size of the frieze can be anything from 1x12 to 1x2..but we always put something. IF we don't...I don't know if our bricklayers would know what to do! I say that in jest...but there's more truth to it than you might think. You see...our bricklayers drop their corners from our pine...if it's not there..then they're confused.
Remember I told you our only house without a frieze was a disaster? Well I'll give you three guesses why...and the first two don't count. If you guessed that the brickies were confused..then you are correct. It seems that the brickies just plumbed up from the brickledges and when they got to the top, they didn't make the last course perfetly straight. Then, the aluminum trim guys came by and custom fit all the soffits to the wavy brick. The finished product looked so bad...the homeowner made the builder tear all the brick down, and the soffit!
We had to go back and install brick racks and frieze's....with 10,000 white brick laying all around the house!
The irony is that before I stood up our first wall, I called the superintendent to discuss exactly how he wanted the overhang system built..because the plans didn't show any frieze and I was warning him that we probably should put one in....he'd just have to call the lumber yard and have them ship 300' of 1x6...he opted to save money on lumber... and let the siding guy bend in a small brickmold!
Personally, I would put a frieze in right now.....that way the brickie has a straight line to drop his corners from!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Heres a drawing of what I'd do DJJ. There won't be much brick showing..especially if you put a 1x4 or larger frieze on under the rake. I'd consider a 1x6 or 1x8...what ever it took to eliminate all the flashing from showing over those returns.
Anyways, heres a pic of how I'd cut the ply now and I've suggested a 1x2 frieze for the brickies to work to.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Thanks for the comments about the house. Here is a rendering of the final product.
Thanks for your replies and taking the time to make your drawing. The only concern I had with just cutting back the sheathing is that he used a 2x6 nailed to the wall at the back of the return which runs out to the fascia on the side of the gable (see the picture in red). So I assume that my mason will have to turn the bricks on edge to get around that 2x6. Unfortunately he is using that big haul he made bricking parade homes all summer to head to head south for the holidays. I don't have his cel number so I can't ask him what he wants.
I will talk to my framer about building a frieze/brick rack for areas that will be bricked. Maybe I will make them out of Azek so we don't need to worry about wrapping them.
I drove around three of the high end developments here today and checked out most of the homes ($300k to $600k) that were brick. In 90% of them there was no frieze and they had bricked right up to the soffit. On the few that did have a frieze, it was either vinyl that was hooked onto the j channel; or a couple looked like they used Azek that was attached right to the brick. So the brick rack idea must not have caught on here yet. :) Of course a lot of the framing crews here are Amish so they probably aren't online to hangout at Breaktime and learn from the gurus.
Thanks again! Regards,
Dennis
DJJ, The mason will have to either clip (split them) or use other techniques...depending on layout. Remember, everything that is above the fascia line will eventually be hidden by soffit material, so if they have to corbel out their bricks to get by that 2x6 nailer, it really won't be much of a problem.
Around here, the masons do what it takes without much fuss...I wouldn't worry too much about it. If the masons decide that splitting their bricks is too much trouble, just tell them to bear their last brick on the return roof. You're only talking about carrying one brick...maybe two at the most and your roof system is plenty strong enough to carry that.
I'd probably just tell them to lay it on the roof, now that I think about it. No cutting and no messing around. Caulk would hold one brick in....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
By brick rack, I'm assuming that is the same thing as a brick pocket, and you say you all don't do it that way. I'm shocked, but of coarse my experience is limited to the way we build in the SE. I've never even been to Iowa!
IMO though, having a frieze adds a lot to the look of a house - especially with a brick house, because of the contrast in color between the brick and the trim. See attached pic. Generally, I'd say the wider the cornice the more richer the look of the home. When you say that 300-600k homes don't have them.... well that doesn't surprise me. Not uncommon almost anywhere in the US to see 1/2 mil homes on postage stamp lots, with minimal air gaps between their neighbors, and all vinyl siding. These houses have some granite in the kitchen, single stage crown in some rooms and 5000 heated sq ft and these buyers think it is a luxurious home and a "great value". The words cornice and frieze aren't even in these people's vocabulary. Unfortunately, these are the style houses the general public wants and builders have to give the customer base what they want if he is to be successful.
It all comes comes down to style though, and I'm aware that housing styles in the mid west are less traditional than what we have here in the SE. The house in the pic that I attached might look odd in these neighborhoods you described. Matt
Matt,
Great looking house. About the only buildings around here that are going up with dentil molding on them are banks. There are a number of older homes in town in the more prestigious old neighborhoods that do have that level of trim and more on them. Pretty scarce on the new homes though. Fortunately most of the higher end developments here (300k+) are on .5 to .75 acre lots so they aren't right on top of their neighbors. When I was in phoenix last week I was shocked at how close the half million+ houses were. I'll bet some of them had 5' easements. Even the tract houses here aren't that close.
re the brick pocket, it looks like most of the masons here are just bricking up to level with the soffit and then the soffit is installed in front of the brick. In one house (prob 4000 sq feet) going up near ours it looked like the top course of brick stopped 3/4" inch or so short of the soffit so the mason just packed the gap with extra mortar. Nice...
Regards,
Dennis
Edited 12/16/2004 11:28 pm ET by DJJ
That house is my neighbor's and is about 5 years old. As far as the dentil blocks, I'm not really "in to it" that much, and I think it is kinda out of style. As I think you got though, my point was the overall width of the cornice treatment - the combination of the fascia, frieze and whatever crown mold might be in between the 2.
I'm building some $150 - 200k houses right now that are to have somewhat of a historic look and I'm using 1x8 fascia and 1x6 frieze with a small bed mold between. Matt
Djj,
It sounds to me like you should install the lead over the top of your return and slide the top of the flashing under the tyvek and nail it, then form the lead to conform with the top of the return nice and neat but don`t nail the bottom of it in case the brickies need to make any adjustments......