I need an inexpensive solution to install a countertop on a kitchen island. Wouldnt be used for much prep work, mainly serving etc. Are there any alternative “granite type” solid products that dont cost a fortune? Top is something like 5′ by 3′
Any ideas are welcome
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Replies
concrete stained/colored and sealed. However some colorings/stains cost quite a penny.
There are solid surface laminates now that are applied very much like traditional laminates. They offer the solid surface benifits at a much lower cost.
Speaking of laminate - Good old Wilsonart is still a great option in the affordable catagory. It looks much nicer to finish the edge with hardwood trim rather than wrapping the laminate around the edge.
The patterns in the "Nebula" series by Wilsonart are some of the best at hiding scratches and holding up to heavy use over time. My firm specs it quite a bit on non-kitchen commercial counter tops.
I like concrete a lot but it is not an inexpensive solution. Because of the labor involved in fabrication, concrete is generally more expensive than stone. I can get granite installed for about $50/sf here. Concrete is around $75 to $80/sf.
Finally - stone tile will also give you a great looking top at a fraction of the cost of a solid slab.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Yeah, I was thinking of stone tile. What woud you adhere it to? A sub-base of wonderboard? How about the edges? One possibility I though of was to mount a ply top to the island, trim it out with hardwood taller than the ply and fill in the resulting space with say pieces of slate.
Yes - any of the cement type tile backer boards is the underlayment you want. A lot of people will go ahead and finish the edge in narrow pieces of tile or custom made stone nosing as well.
Wood edging is going to be the easiest and most affordable option. Your wood edge idea would look nice.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
If I were to use the backerboard, how would I attach the wood edging to it? Could use like a 3/4" plywood base and edge join to the ply. Making the wood edging higher on top and flush on bottom so it rests on top of the island. Just screw the ply base to the top of the island. Fill in with some mastic, pieces of slate and then grout, finally seal the slate to keep it looking nice.
Would I run into problems putting mastic right on ply though?
What do you think?
Edited 11/20/2003 4:13:55 PM ET by larleb
The way I have done tile counters is to use 3/4 plywood and 1/2 durock with a wood edge. First make your edging out of something like 3/4 x 1 3/4. It will depend on your tile and clearance for drawers to open. Dadoo a 3/4 groove about a qtr inch from the bottom. This should be a good snug fit. Put your desired router edge on the top corner.
Screw the ply down to the cabinet and wood glue the edging on. Miter and finish nail at the corners. Then use construction adhesive and put the durock on the ply. Then thinset the tiles on that. The tile should be even with the wood edge (and your drawers should open).
I finish the wood edge before I grout.
Hope this helps. J.
Couple of additional questions.
- what is durock? is it an adhesive?
- not sure what you mean by dado. I know what a dado is but do you mean dado the wood edging so that the ply fits into a groove on the bottom of it rather than a flush mount?
Edited 11/20/2003 4:55:53 PM ET by larleb
Durock is a brand name of a concrete board. Used gererally for shower walls.
Yes, the plywood will fit in the groove (dado). It almost stays on by itself that way. No line up problems either. I think 1/4 deep works well. Just plan for it when sizing your ply.
I tried to attach a picture, we'll see if it worked.
Feel free to ask more questions
Yep, I see your diagram, but why dado it and not just flush mount to the ply and make the bottom of the ply and trim flush too?
I feel you get a stronger joint. Not that it can't be flush.
Dennis, I see your point about the water, but he said it wasn't a counter that would see alot of prep use.
J.
Dennis does have a good point though. Its inevitable that sooner or later water would come in contact with the surface. I'm going to find a regular solid countertop of sorts. Better in the long run. Will look better in the long run
One last question. I have the island all gutted and the drwall is now installed on the sides of it. The top is open and exposed to the 2x4 frame.
Should I just temporarily secure some ply on top untill I get the real top or have the drywall guys put a drywall top on it and maybe put a piece of plexy on top for now?
When you have countertops installed, what sub base do they need? i.e. for granite or other solids or for the laminate? There is no access from beneath to screw a top on.
Here's another top idea- Richlite. I just got some samples from them. It's a wood product, sustainable, probably pulp in some sort of epoxy binder, available in seven colors, and it machines like wood (you can router it easily). Check it out at http://www.richlite.com.
True, about the "no prep" comment in the original post. But give me a counter in the kitchen, rather give my wife a counter in the kitchen, and it will get washed down sooner than later (grin).
If I were building a built-in buffet in the dining room I would probably do the wood trim the way most people prefer to see it: framing the tile or stone or whatever if the top was not a solid surface or thick enough to provide a self edge. I agree entirely that it's a much better looking design. I would not, however, use that design in a kitchen. But that's just me.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Ok, I'm making progress. This weekend I made face frames from 1 x 4 Poplar that will be mounted around the island to make like a faux raised panel design.
Question is, should I join the two panels that meet at the outside corner together firest and then fit the resulting "L" to the island or secure each panel to the sides of the island and then fasten them together at the corner?
I'm thinking I will get a better looking joint at the corner if I secure them together squarely and securely (pocket hole screws) and then mount the whole thing to the island. Adjusting here and there by scribing in the ends etc etc afterward.
Am I on the right track here?
See attached pic for better visual (they are just leaned up agains the island for now)
Edited 11/23/2003 8:32:35 PM ET by larleb
Am I on the right track here?
Yeah, that will work nicely. My preference is to have the back frame the same width as the face frame, then fit the end panel frames in between. But that's probably as much for simplifying factory detailing in a cabinet shop ans anything else.
I like the proportions of the stiles, too. Too often, a stock factory will use a 1 1/2" endstile with 3" midstiles--that's just too skinny on the ends, IMHO.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
So, I am now ready to order a piece of granite for the island top (see pics I attached above). The overall surface is about 2' x 4'
A few questions:
Do I need to have one continuous surface ie. plywood underneath it or would the 2 x 4 structure that is already there be enough. I would have to level it of course but its already pretty true.
Level with ordinary shims?
Should the granite not rest directly on the 1 x poplar face frames I attached? I wouldnt want them to be damaged from eventual pressure.
So far so good. Just need a little advice and I'll be done with this one and on to the next project.
Your slab will weigh about 85 pounds if it's 20mm, about 128 if it's 30mm. The surface area of the top perimeter of your frame is roughly 100 square inches. The poplar will easily support a load of 1.25 psi. If I overestimated the surface area of the frame by a factor of 2, the load is still only 2.5 psi.
Adding plywood wouldn't help anyway, because the same weight of granite, plus the weight of the plywood, is still going to end up bearing on the top surface of the frame.
But shouldnt I have the ply sub base there the same height as the face frames to support the granite completely underneath? Dont want it to crack if something drops on it. How strong is granite that way?
Edited 12/4/2003 4:47:49 PM ET by larleb
I'd probably put the plywood on, myself, but I can't give you any very good reason for it. :)
The granite is plenty tough for anything that you're likely to hoist up to chest height and drop on it. IMO. YMMV. I.e. don't sue me if you do break it.
Anyone have any thoughts or ideas of what I should trim out the bottom of the island with. Shoe molding looks too small. Should have planned it out a bit better. The bottom boards on the face frames are 1 x 4 (3 3/4" actually) so a regular 3"+ baseboard there wont look right.
Saw some stuff called 'race' or 'face' molding at the yard that was 1 5/8" that looks colonial style and seems to work but I'm not sure what its supposed to be used for.
Any ideas are welcome.
Larleb -
I'm using 1 1/4" stone tops on the counters of our new kitchen. I'm using 3/4" subtops flush with the tops of the cabinet frames. My thought is this will give me a solid continuous surface to adhere the stone to; a setting bed, if you will. I'm not sure how I would go about attaching the stone to a 3/4" wide face frame top and/or partitions in the cabinets. Surely it can, and is done but it doesn't seem to secure to me.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Larleb -
I would personally never trim out a stone or tile countertop with wood. You're using an open joint between two dissimilar materials at the top of the countertop. Wood moves, shrinks and swells with seasonal changes in humidity. Not that much given the small piece of trim in question here, but enough to eventually, possibly, work the grout loose from that joint between the wood and much more rigid and inflexible stone. You will no doubt be washing this surface from time to time. Water can and will find its way into this open joint. If the wood is not thoroughly sealed, waterproofed and protected below the surface, this joint will possibly deteriorate even more.
A better option, but not as pleasing to the eye, is to trim the edge out with hardwood to get the desired overhang on the countertop but to run the stone or tile over the trim rather than butt it into it. The best option is to simply run a narrow rip of the stone tile along the edge and lap the top over it. I don't argue that the initial concept has more design appeal - I just don't think, given time and ordinary kitchen environment use, it will be that practical.
Just my thoughts, .... your mileage may well vary.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
they make a colored caulk that works great, and you can get it down in Tacoma on Pacific Ave. (I think it tiles for less?) By the way they have pretty good prices for granite $7 per 12" sq.
all you do is leave your spacers between the wood and your tile like normal and groat everything except the edges. Looks and works great.
JasonIf it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have Any!
when I see your fine island coming along and you're asking about base shoe
most important to me are the base treatments I don't see - the other walls of the house and specifically your kitchen having said that I'd recommend considering some material app 5/4" X 1" w/ roundover or bullnose 1" dimension to the floor
stout, becoming; paint it first caulk it to your face frame - finish coat etc good luck John
I made one this summer with 3/4 ply 0r whatever you need to get the thickness you need. then glued the thin hardie backer on it,then used some stone colored corian epoxied to the edges for a nose. the corian was higher than the backer to allow for the thickness of the tile. looked great...
Bud
How about plain old laminate? Some of the fancier patterns and colors are truly nice.
Are there any small granite fabricators in your area?
Speaking from experience, I am always accumulating leftover portions of slabs from custom kitchens. I have no use for them, the client doesn't want it, and I would happily give them all away. In fact I end up dumping several tons a year of usable slab scrap in the landfill when it piles up to the point of being dangerous.
If someone wants to pay me to do some cutting and polishing on one of my pieces of scrap I will give them the scrap for free. Some of the other local shops might charge a hundred bucks flat fee for a leftover piece of material.
The key to getting someone like me to do the work for a reasonable price is to:
go for a simple edge profile (like a flat polished 3/4" edge)
Have a durable, accurate, full size wooden template ready to hand to me
Don't feel the need to talk my ear off (I frequently find I spend more time talking to a budget minded client that actually doing the work they are seeking).
A fabricators time is money so anything you can do to minimize the time it takes him to understand what you want and to do it will save you money.
I don't know what you are looking to spend but I could cut a scrap to your 3 x 5 size and polish all four edges for 500 bucks if you didn't consume too much of my time trying to find the right color, communicate your concerns, etc.
Also you might need to wait a few weeks for work to slow down if I really was the one to do the work as the current bigger jobs would take priority.
Karl
Good post.
I can see you aren't used to wasting time.
Laughed out loud at its truth.
Reminds me of some prairie folks I know.
Trying to think of the adjective. Taciturn? maybe.
AlanAlan Jones
I am also looking for alternatives for an island top. Has anyone worked with copper sheeting. I saw this in a magazine. The size was about the same as what you are talking of and the cost was $350.00. Just wondering if anyone has this and how it has worked out.
Last Christmas we covered my counter tops in copper sheeting. We bought two 9x3' sheets at Alaskan Copper & Brass in the Seattle Industrial area for about $125 for both. I believe it was 20 gage. Takes some good pounding with a rubber hammer to make the edges - but most people pay to work out, right?
We love it.
The Island part was fairly easy. I can send you pictures if you email me.
[email protected]
I used to frequent a bar in Santa Fe, NM that had a copper bartop. Every Sunday they would clean it with rock salt and vinegar and the fumes would run us all out to the parking lot!
Okay, I would definitely not want to do that every week. I wonder if that is needed even if not commercially used. I don't know.....I'm having visions of green copper counters and island. Don't know if this is a good idea or not.
It sure was purdy!
sexy answer!
s2
"The key to getting someone like me to do the work for a reasonable price is to:........"
Karl,
Excellent words of advice to ALL. That's exactly what I did (sort of) with my kitchen (no use of scrap though) and a simple 45 degree bevel.
For four granite Dakota Mahogany countertops (about 70 sq ft) my fabricator charged me $3000. But one had a large cutout, (36" cooktop in a 30" deep slab) and another a very complicated shape (8 sided with acute and obtuse angles). But yeah, made all the templates myself (out of 1/8 plywood), dropped them off at the shop, helped the guy carry them in and set them down. And NO idle chit chat during his working hours.
Jon
Granite tile is very "granite type", and is a mere pittance when compared to the price of the slab stuff. It has to be laid carefully (flat!), and grouted to match, but if done right, it's an appropriate counter finish for a fine house.
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