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A article in “This Old House” (sorry Fine Home building)October, 2000 titled “Courting the Contractor” is a must read!
“Home owners today not only need to be savvy about bids, contracts, change orders, and punch lists, but they literally have to sell their projects to a busy contractor. Its a lot like dating says OH heating and plumbing contractor Richard Trethewey, You want the contractor to notice you, but you don’t want to be too pushy. You hope he likes you and you like him.”
I would love to hear what you guys think about this article. I have some opinions but I’ll wait, so not to front load the discussion.
Replies
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I read it last night and feel like writing to the editor.
I think it's Norm, quoted as saying that typically contractors mark up their work 20-25% (this is for profit AND overhead). They sure aren't doin' us any favors sayin' stuff like that. It costs a small guy more than that just in overhead.
And another thing - she goes through that whole "year before the project" schedule, and the entire article is about preplanning, and the fact that most contractors are booked months in advance, and she advises 1 month before beginning work is when to "pick" a contractor.
I was really disappointed. They could have done a lot better job of explaining the realities and then backing that up with good advice. Thumbs down.
What about that section "6 things your contractor won't tell you". Bullshit. I level with folks about scheduling and the fact that I'm jugglin' customers. Honesty is the best policy. I was definatly not impressed.
You want to read a good article, check out "Legal Advisor" in the last JLC. Now THAT'S something we can use.
*TOH is Cosmo for home owners. It's all bad advice.
*Ryan, I agree 100% about Cosmo for homeowners. It seems every job I have had recently, the homeowner either quotes from TOH or has a copy on the coffee table. The problem is that John Q. Public thinks they are reading a contractors magazine and that we buy into this 100%.
*I bought one copy; never again. from the example given, this doesn't even qualify as drivel.
*I bought a few issues a couple of years ago when I travelled, and read them on the plane. And then left them on the plane intentionally; good for passing the time in the air, but not worth reading a second time. I found most of the articles to be very shallow with little backup. I was disturbed by a (fairly) recent change in FWW and FHB when they 'improved' the layout and changed the photo style. It immediately reminded me of the photo layouts in TOH.
*TOH is all fluff and no substrate. It all looks so easy on the TV after they have had twelve "takes". I never bought their mag, and never will. That show, and others like it, have done more damage to those of us in the trenches than anything in history. I wish they would show the "real" out-takes. Like when the mason doesn't show, or the rough opening that the manufacturer gives you doesn't work with the window, or when you just can't get that cabinet through the door and you have to take the stop off, or that new roof leak that you spend days trying to find......that sort of thing happens all the time in the real world, and we deal with it. I'm sorry sir, but TOH is to us carpenters and builders what NYPD Blue is to real cops. Ed. Williams
*Had a similar, luke warm reaction. The mag wasn't as bad when it first came out. Read a few on plane trips, and subscribed for a $12/yr offer. Next year, resubscribed for same offer. Then it went to like $24/yr, but someone else gets a comp. subscription. Never sent anything in, and for the past year, about every third issue I get in the mail. Got the latest one. As long as if free, I'll thumb thru it, but really a piece of crap anymore. Even the indepth how-to's leave out important info. Just enough to get someone screwed up! Jeff
*I get "Today's Homeowner" mag (got it as a gift), and I used to get so pissed off at these two yahoos that wrote continuing articles called "Pros and Contractors". They were so full of crap, and made all contractors out to look like we were hiding something, or out to rip the client off first chance we get. Most of the articles were about how NOT to get nailed by a contractor, and how to keep us honest during the project. I wrote them and told them what I thought about all of it. Now, these two yahoos are gone (definitely not because of my writing to the mag), and a real contractor/tv star wanna be named Danny Lipford writes articles along the same lines. He is full of crap too. About half of what he is telling the readers is so far out in left field that I do not read any more articles by him. Don't watch his show either!I'm like Ed, I believe these yo yos don't have a clue what it's like in the REAL construction/repair world. They ought to get out to a real construction site once in a while and see what it is REALLY like.James "Loving Life" DuHamel
*There are contractors and there are writers. Rarely is someone able to do both. I always wonder why if it's in print, it must be true.
*I agree - as a DIY - the "Pros and Cons" is crap. I've never had a problem with a contractor I've hired, and I've never had to scrutinize like they were gonna get nuclear missile codes. I generally follow the "three bids and friends' recommendations" type advice, except instead of friends, I use contractors' advice. Prime example, my electrician was recommended by plumber, and most recent work he was 10% under estimate with some freebies he suggested. Oh, and Danny Lipford is just another Bob Vila wannabe - I'd say just barely a step above Steve Thomas. I read Today's Homeowner, The Family Handyman, Workbench (just found it) and Fine Homebuilding - plus an occaisonal woodworking mag. Any magazine has a pretty decent 'basics' package for my needs - tool reviews, tips, techniques, hints, etc. I also know when I read their articles certain 'stereotypes' for each. TH is great for ideas for projects, but comparatively a little light on the 'how-to'. TFH is heavier on how-to, still good for ideas, one of my favorties for years. Definitely geared to DIY, and sometimes their tips are more trouble and jury-rigged than they're worth. Workbench, as I said new to me, seems slanted towards woodworkers but for a woodwork mag some fai bit of home repair/maintenance/remodel type info. FH, best I've found, well, we all know it's good, right? Mostly, I'll take these mags, and when I have a project, I'll take the tips, techniques, ideas from multiple sources and cummulate with a heavy dose of past experiences.
*"just barely a step above Steve Thomas". Boy, that's low! I used to enjoy Bob Vila on TOH, maybe because of his style. Thomas doesn't have any style or charisma or anything. Wonder who selected him? get ready to throw stones: I enjoy watching Norm and Bob and all the bozo sidekicks (except Joann Liebler) because i can see how things are done in different parts of the country. Also, I'll never work on a 200 year old house, so it's fun to see how they were built back then. As crazy as Norm is, I always learn something from his show. Admittedly, sometimes I learn how not to do something, but I always pick somethimg up. My wife won't sit in the same room when Yankee Workshop is on, because I'm constantly yelling at Norm that he's doing something wrong, like smearing too much squeezed out glue off a joint (use less glue), or using some high tech gadget, or nailing everything in sight with an air nailer. Have to admit, though, he's doing somehting he likes, someone else is buying the tools and materials, and he shows a nice profit at the end of each month.
*The old yankee workshop is a half hour ad for porter cable.This old house has changed to attract the rich, theater, pseudointelectual crowd. That's just who public tv wants to attract...they're the ones that send in the checks.
*I like Norm too, and I also like yelling at the mistakes. More relaxing than yelling at the Eagles on Sundays. The Yankee Workhop is something of a tool ad - who actually has a dedicated mortising chiseler? (No fair any of you cabinetmakers chirping in) That's one thing I like about Family Handyman - instead of always using a tablesaw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, etc. they'll often tell you how to get by with say a circular saw and router. In the next year to two I hope to buy all the other fun stuff, but my semi-limited tool collection means I can't do half the stuff the mags/shows propose.I thought TOH was always aimed at the psuedo-intellectual types. That's why they always like to show goofy shit instead of real houses.
*It was nice to see that Mr. Pita wasn't "shot" for admitting to be a DIY'er. Ever stop to think where the homeowner can get good infomation and know what to expect if those who know won't tell them? People go to TOH, Hometime, and HGTV because they think these are the professionals. Didn't see any mention of JLC, rather interesting mag and site. if you have some "free time" (check the dictionary for meaning) try and figure out how a homeowner would find good information on a remodel.
*You ain't the only one glad to see that. ;) I would read JLC, but I was under the impression that only pros could get the mag. No supply near me carries it. I visited their website, liked it, but I haven't had a big project to research since I discovered it. Before the next project, I will definitely be there. I am definitely DIY, but I have what I like to think of as at least tangential background in construction. I know enough to be dangerous, but I like to think I know when I'm over my head, too.
*JLC has one subscription rate for the Pro's and another rate for others. But you can get it.
*Two rates? Wonder which one I'm paying.
*I pay something like 24.95 a year for JLC. I like both it and FH; seems to me that a lot of stuff in FH is what I aspire to, while JLC has a lot of stuff I actually see going on (vinyl siding tips, exposed fastener metal roofing on residences, etc.). TOH is not my idea of a good magazine--too much fluff and not enough substance, but then again, that kind of describes most Americans, in my opinion, in what they look for in a new home...
*Think Jason hit the nail on the head.If memory serves right the pro rate is the $25/yr and the other about $40/yr, renewed about a month ago and that what I remember.
*Bob, When do they give you the choice?
*we get about 10 building related mags every month.... read JLC & FHB for ideas.. and i read TOH to see what my customers are going to want next...kind of like shopping the opposition...the common theme i read here is the homeowners are reading these things and getting bogus info...so .. go to the source so you'll know where they're comming from...
*For JLC there is an on-line subscription application form, and that's when you make the selection. There's also an option to give them your e-mail address (it's not required) and if they e-mail you about renewing the subscription and you accept, I think there's a 10% discount.
*I used to like TOH at first. They were doing some old houses worth saving, some barns,etc. and it was kinda cool.Now a lot of the projects are ho-hum. But the thing that pisses me off is the cost involved. These jokers get top dollar for every nail that goes into a house,then load it up with trick materials and finishes. If the viewers really knew how much money Tom Silva makes compared to the rest of the people in this industry, they would quit watching out of disgust.The show projects an idea that everyone should be able to put a copper roof on their house,or cover every flat surface with slate,granite or marble.It's just not so, but it sure makes it hard to tell people that.
*well. joel... are you gonna be ready when your customer asks for that copper roof..or the granite counter ?they're out there buddy...be ready for 'emb but hey , whadda i no ?
*Amen brother!As for Today's Homeowner, the last issue I got had an outdoor shed on the cover, and an article showing the building stages. It was a 12' x 12' log cabin looking thing. Pretty neat, but $18,000.00 price tag. I had to laugh. Maybe in SOME places homeowners will pay $18k for a damn shed, but not here. Most of their projects get so far out in left field that it makes me laugh. They do have a lot of down to earth projects and tips though. James
*Mike,I thought I just said that.Realistically, though, how many $400.000.00 remodels have you done lately? The number would be zero for me.People everywhere want top of the line finishes, but few can afford the full package. Having a show like TOH making it sound like every house can and should get all this stuff is nuts.I like Hometime's approach much better. They show houses in all budgets, yet they still seem to work in some neat new materials and toys.
*That's a good point Joel. I run into it a lot with finishes; they have the mags, they know what they want, and the price tag is glossed over. An example is a recent kitchen design; the kitchen was going to go for something like $8000. They asked for a roll out pantry unit (I admit, they picked it out of a flyer I left with them, but they had seen it in mags). The hardware alone on the unit was $3000, not counting the cabinet or installation. There is a whole lot of subtle (and not so subtle) advertising going on on those shows and mags.
*I've got a question. If they want the 3000. pantry and can afford the additional cost, why not let them buy it from you (instead of someone else)? I often work with other contractors who will talk customers out of things simply because it won't fit in their (the contractors') budget or lifestyle. They think they know the customer because they've done work for them before. Midway through the job we are making changes because the customer was talked out of something they really wanted and now they realize that relative to what they are spending the additional cost is minimal to accomplish what they REALLY WANTED in the first place. Except now it costs more because we've got to rip something out or modify the plans to work it back in.Shoot, if I talked everyone out of stuff I couldn't personally afford, I'd be out of work in no time! As far as the magazines promoting the more expensive and frilly stuff - what's wrong with that? Fact is, that's their job - to let people know what's new and exciting and different out there. If every magazine had the exact same information, we'd only need one magazine and then only one big issue since the information would never change. No monthly subscriptions - hey - anyone want to buy a set of World Book Encyclopedia 1978 edition ??? Even they had annual supplements! Everybody's got to have a dream. Bet none of you guys ever drooled over a tool you couldn't afford - and then went out and shopped for something within your budget, figuring out just how to get all the frills you "needed" on the one you could afford! Our customers are no different. They see the glitz and really want that. Then comes the reality check and if they STILL really want it, they will find a way to get it. Many times we can accomplish what they are REALLY after and still find ways to do that within their budget. In fact, customers who are armed with pictures from magazines and all the new ideas make life a lot simpler for me because I can then quickly determine whether what they want is something we can provide or if they are willing to work with me to come up with an alternate solution. But then again, the people I sell to are really pretty smart. When I tell them where they are running up the costs, the most common response is that they had already figured that - they just didn't know HOW much and they really wanted someone in the know to confirm what they thought.So Adrian, did you scare them away from the pantry, or did you simply present the facts, advise them of the alternatives, and let them make their own decision?Ken
*That one got shelved (maybe permanently, maybe not) as I was walking out the door to finalize things, Ken. I wasn't going to try and talk them out of it (I would have happily provided it), but I did have two less expensive alternatives ready. I hear what you are saying, but I don't try and make those decisions for clients; I'm pretty good at listening, and trying to help them to what THEY want. My point was only that it's easy to burn half the budget of a modest project on one glitzy accessory, and people have to be aware of that. And convincing people that they simply must have everything that's hot,like the magasines do, is consumerism.
*I'm with you Ken. I try to start the relationship with an open mind, and encourage the customer to keep one too. I try to listen to what they REALLY want, then price it for them. Let them make any final decisions. It's amazing how many folks are pleasantly surprised what stuff costs and actually add on to a project, after getting the initial numbers. That's another reason this "first visit quote" doesn't fit very well with the way I do business. Virtually every job I do is a prototype. I like it that way. Keeps me learning, growing.
*A agree with Ken also. In fact, when I used to work with Tom and Pete, I'd give a book of photos I made from various magazines to clients to peruse. I told them to look at specifics. For example, the ceilings, beams, small TV on a turntable on the counter in the Kitchen, etc. Tom tells people to tell him their ideal .....................? and they then go from there. At least he then knows their prioities and want wish. I'm going thru the same thing right now - a new iBook with a 466 mhz processor & 12" screen for $1800 and free 128 Ram upgrade, or the G3 PowerBook 400 with a larger cache, faster processor and 14" screen for $2500. Knowing I keep computers for 5-6 years, I'm now leaning toward the PowerBook even though it's more than I need, but who knows what situation I'll be in 2-3 years down the road. Besides, since I use bifocals, the 14" means less squinting.It's amazing how we, and clients, justify the things that are desired..
*Must be a reason that one got shelved (could be a good thing). Glad you found out they weren't moving forward before you put too much work into it.As far as i "people have to be aware of that" well now, just how are they going to be aware until we tell them what we charge ?............ Most of them don't have access to a copy of the National Standard Remodeling and Renovations Price Guidelines, (revised Y2K version soon available) that we ALL use and swear by (as if)...... say, neither do those magazines. Sure, they know it's going to be more for those accessories, but they came to us to find out HOW MUCH more. Not sure where you're coming from about consumerism...I've watched a lot of trends and trendy items. Seen them start out as very expensive things that very few could afford and gradually, if enough people show an interest in it, someone will figure out how to knock it out faster, cheaper, deliver it more efficiently, and all of the sudden it's available for the mass market. How do all these people find out about these new products so they can ask about them and make this cycle happen? Advertising. Advertising that tells them that they need to have these very trendy things. Saw an ad the other day about some medication that could help my allergies, maybe I'll ask the allergist what he thinks the next time I'm in. So this is a bad thing?Ken
*What are you going to tell the allergist if he tells you this new pill is only $400.00 a month? Kinda going in there with a set of false expectations and presumptions, aren't ya?But, hell, you saw it on TV so it must be good as gold. And you're gonna pay the allergist for an office visit whether you get the new pill or not.Nobody said they don't like to know about new products, or that they don't want to do high end projects.What they said is that they don't like having to deal with false expectations.
*Yup...love the high end, new products, clients that have done research and have pictures, making dreams come true. Hate walking in to a meeting to find a 5 or 10 thousand dollar budget, and pictures of $100K monster show kitchens all over the place, and a client who watches all the shows every Saturday morning, and thinks those show kitchens or whatever are normal and affordable to the average person. I don't know how it happened, but recently the line between dreams and reality seems to have blurred. Many of the people who get involved in TOH, don't forget, end up with serious money problems, even with donated materials; it's called "TOH syndrome". I read interviews with one couple who were hoping and praying to not go bust over the whole thing. That's consumerism, getting in over your head buying things you don't need. If you really want to do it, I'll sell it to you, but I go into any final meeting with a range of options for the homeowner.Jim; I don't doubt you for a minute, but I have never had a client who found the price less than they were expecting and added stuff. I've had some who said okay, some who gritted their teeth and said okay, some who said I can't afford that, what can we do? all the way down to those who thought I was sick for wanting that kind of money (and believe me, people get very good value with me). I have never seen a budget that wasn't tighter than a drum, and I have never seen a client, even a wealthy client, who wasn't taken aback by what things cost. I am entirely prepared to believe it is a cultural difference between Canada and the States, though, and that isn't a dig in any way.
*Actually, Joel, I'm not going in with any expectations regarding the price or the availability. Just an inquiry of whether this is a product that would be appropriate for my treatment. Good as gold? I don't take advertising as seriously as you imply. Neither do a lot of other folks. In this case budget would be determined partially by an outside provider, the insurance company. That's anther issue, but one that I hadn't even bothered to consider yet - I haven't even gotten as far as the budgeting on this issue.What you just did was to read your expectations into my words. A little presumptuous of you wasn't that? How many times do you do that to your customers?
*It's probably more an indication that you are charging what you should be, 'cause a lot of times, I underbid jobs something awful. Fortunately for me, our economy is very strong here, and I can afford to take my lumps as I learn realistic bidding because there is another job waiting after this one is done. And I can't remember anything you ever posted reading like a dig, except in a good natured way.
*Ok, then so consumerism is a product of the consumer's lack of prudence in their purchasing habits, not the advertiser's diligence in promoting their products.On the other thing, nope, no cultural difference there. I've heard all the same things and some worse. I think it may have to do with the expectations we set with our customers based on the "value" we say we are giving them. People seem to just equate "good value" with "paying less."
*Ken, you must have your picture in the dictionary next to "crawfish". I would love to see you backing up at 90 mph. with your customers and suppliers.It would be humorous.Not fair or good business, but humorous.Presumptious of me? If it looks like a crawfish, walks like a crawfish and quacks like a crawfish,then it's a crawfish.
*Namecalling always makes for a good rebuttal. Good thing this is an election year, I think I just got mud slung at me.
*joel... what i read into ken's post was this.. he saw an add..next he'll inquire about the product,..if you're right , he will then weigh the anticipated results ( relief from allergies )..against the cost ($400 a month) ..so for $13 a day he can have the relief.. if it's true what the adds say.. and they only have to be true to the level of ken's expectations... NOT yours..if your customers want the latest , greatest, i'll find out about it, offer my opinion.. and let them decide if they still want it.. i'm not going to sell it.. i'm not going to raise their expectations beyond what i .. i, not the product.. can deliver..but i'm not going to dismiss thier desires either...joe schmo, your competitor down the street will provide it for them if you won't..don't let YOUR personal tastes and budget effect your ability to deliver on your customers's needs and desires....but then , i bet you don't anyways.. and what's really happening here is a question of semantics..b but hey......
*And now for something completely different:The new issue of Town & Country has an article on working with a contractor that doed not paint us as the anti christ. For the most part we are treated as profesionals ( with the obligitory bad apple story). This is the first time I've seen a story start out with be nice to your contractor.
*Thanks, Mike. that was pretty accurate......... Joel, if you see some other place where you think I've reversed myself, just give us some specifics and we can figure out whether I need to rethink my position or simply clarify what I said.
*I read that article last night, and I feel like writing the editor...not really, just funnin'.
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A article in "This Old House" (sorry Fine Home building)October, 2000 titled "Courting the Contractor" is a must read!
"Home owners today not only need to be savvy about bids, contracts, change orders, and punch lists, but they literally have to sell their projects to a busy contractor. Its a lot like dating says OH heating and plumbing contractor Richard Trethewey, You want the contractor to notice you, but you don't want to be too pushy. You hope he likes you and you like him."
I would love to hear what you guys think about this article. I have some opinions but I'll wait, so not to front load the discussion.