I have a coverage problem with SW Duration exterior paint and would like BT comments and suggestions. I’m doing a complete exterior remodel with Hardi FC lap siding (factory primed) and Kleer PVC trim. The siding paint was matched to a sample by the local SW store and is a medium brown. The trim is a standard SW dark brown. The trim dark brown covers well with two coats. The problem is with the custom matched med brown. After two coats, I still can see light areas were the FC primer is showing through. Tried three coats in one area and it’s still a little thin in places. The custom match color also doesn’t seem as thick and creamy as the dark brown trim color. My question is, do some Duration colors cover better than others or is my problem more likely caused by the custom match? I’ve never tried a custom match color before, so have no experience with it, but all the Duration I’ve used before has covered well in two coats. Not sure what to do now. I went with the custom match because I couldn’t find a factory color that worked well. I’m tempted now to go with a factory color that, although not ideal, is close. I’m concerned that even if I get it to look good now with three coats, in five years it will fade and look blotchy. I’d also like to avoid the time and expense of a third coat. Any comments? <!—-> <!—-><!—->
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Greetings dmarty,
That is one question I would definitely approach my Sherwin-Williams dealer over to see what they would say.
That's why they are there.
Perhaps there might be someone here who can shed some light on your situation.
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By all means contact SW about the problem.
As a general rule, more durable paints will not hide as well as cheaper ones because their pigment to binder ratio is lower. Binder is the resin that holds the paint together, adheres to the substrate and protects the surface; pigment includes the colorants and fillers which, for the most part are inert (except for corrosion inhibitors in some metal primers). Resins are more expensive than pigments, so cheap paints sacrifice durability and scrubability by loading in more pigments, especially fillers. If it's guaranteed to cover in one coat, it probably won't last long.
Your special color was likely made from a medium tinting base with colorants added in the store. Light tinting bases have more titanium, so they have better hide. If it is a very "clean" color the pigments might not hide as well as a muddier color based on inorganic pigments like iron oxide. Red iron oxide plus a little black makes a muddy brown with good hiding properties and low cost.
Your dark brown probably hides better because it contains some black pigment.
Well done!
Let me add one thing for the benefit of the OP. Except for a few ready-mixed colors, any color selected from the color chart or matched to a sample is created the same way. And that is by adding pigments to a base. There will not be a coverage difference regardless of which method is used to choose the color. Of course, color matters, but how it's chosen does not.
Ready-mixed colors (and there are VERY few of them) often cover better because they may use different pigments.
I'll add this...
When a formula is scanned into a computer, they are given multiple color recipes. Each one will be close, but not exact. Each one of the formulas will use different amounts to acheive the "same color". Most stores will use the formula that uses the least amount of pigment.
As for the colors, there are pigments that are more lightfast and others that are not. Stay away from the formulas that have less lightfast pigments.
-from the words of my paint rep.
As for the colors, there are pigments that are more lightfast and others that are not. Stay away from the formulas that have less lightfast pigments
That is what the store manager ment when he said the computer would not allow certin formulations for exterior use.
Way back in the dark ages I was a product development lab tech in an industrial coating lab. My specialty was insturemental color matching. The science of color matching has developed so much since I left that field that I quickly get lost trying to read technical papers on the subject. The basic goal however has not changed, and that is to achieve color match with a total delta E of less than 0.2 under three differnt light sources or any combination of them. At that point it is considered a visual match for all but the highly trained (experienced) color technologist.
I worked with industrial coatings only and the tolerances were a lot tighter for them than in the trade sales market (house paint). From what I see now even the trade sales paint is achieveing remarkable results for first batch formulations. I don't think the op's issue is with the match so much as with the most common issue with many paint manufacturers. They develope an excellent product and spend a bundle on advertising to get it on the market. Then as soon as they gain a fair marrket share, they start doing PIP (profit improvement projects) on the product. That means "what can we take out of this or substitute for in a good product that will increase our profit."
Virtually all paint manufactures have done this for years, and I don't think the culture has changed that much since I left the field. IMO that is why you see cycles in "who makes the best" paint for any application. It is particularly rampant in the house paint market because the end user of the product does not set the standard except with thier $$. Unlike the industrial coatings market the consumer is at the mercy of the manufacturer, and they have a real knack for making any problems the customers fault.
Sorry for the rant.
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Thanks for all of the advice (and the rant). Picked up the new mix today and did a couple of test areas. The new mix does hide better, but it is just as runny as or more so than the original match to sample mix. The color is just a tad darker, so I have to decide if I can live with it. When I started this project, I tried an SW mix but the color was not quite what I wanted, but it was just as thick and covered as well as the dark brown trim paint. Every one says it shouldn't matter, but I think that half my problem is going with a match to sample color rather that an SW color. I'll let the tests dry and sleep on it. The SW manager will let me return the 4 gallons of the original mix and I can go with either the new mix or try to find a SW color I like. I have to say that SW has provided great service. BTW, I'm dealing with the Odana Road store in Madison, WI. Joel and Kathy (manager) have really gone the extra step to make me happy. You can't get service like that at a big box! <!----><!---->
It is good to hear that you are getting such service. My SW store out here in rural KY has had a problem keeping managers and thier service reflects it. The Porter Paint store, across the street, has a manager with over 25 years of experience and it really shows. With so little differance in the products, I have recently switched to Porter for my painting needs. For the $$ involved with either I expect both product performance and customer service. Other wise I would just go to Wally world or Lowes and have snot nosed kid or old retired fert mix the cheapest stuff they have on the shelf for me.
Best of luck with your project.
most SW stores have good experienced people who know the products and stand behind them. i'd start there. I have not had a problem, but here is my thought on this
brown can have a high percentage of red pigmentation, depending....
And red does not cover well, often requiring extra coats, unless the primer is match-tinted or even a dark grey colour.
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Thanks for the help. The base used is "ultradeep base". I will check with the SW store. The manager of my local store is very knowledgeable and helpful. Great service too. In fact when I had the color match done. The manger called me and said it would be an extra day before I could pick up my order as he had checked the work of the person who did the match and found that it had too much yellow (I think it was yellow) and said that he would not let it go out that way as it would fade too quickly. He redid the match so that it would weather better. I will let the group know what SW says. Thanks! <!----><!----><!---->
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It's typical for deep bases to not cover as well. But it still seems that 2 coats should be enough.
had a similar question / complaint w/ Ben Moore product recently
the wall / field self priming paint on sheetrock was the best covering paint i had ever used but the flat white for the trim ( picked out by client ) was not looking up to snuff after one coat of primer & two of finish
staff said there was appreciably more pigment in their eggshell, satin & semi gloss paints
"...but the flat white for the trim ( picked out by client ) was not looking up to snuff after one coat of primer & two of finish
staff said there was appreciably more pigment in their eggshell, satin & semi gloss paints"Are you sure they didn't tell you the reverse? Pigment load increases as gloss decreases (flattening agents are coarsely ground pigments that leave the surface microscopically bumpy), making glossy paints hide more poorly than flatter ones. Was the poor hiding of that flat showing as brush strokes, indicating that the stuff was too viscous to flow and level the film?BruceT
your reaction is about the same one i had w/ their personnel
not sure if it was compensation for just the phenomena you mention or what but they were all in harmony as to their response
Velva name of one of their paints?
mixture a rosy peach / tried it as advertised using its built in primer w/ two coats - wonderful paint & the primer quotient worked as there were too many recessed cans and sconces to hide from
But the flat i used for trim left a lot to be desired
( this coming from someone who usually spot primes all mud then primes all surfaces & then two coats )
I didn't ask before, but did the HO tell you why she wanted flat trim? Only time I have seen that is in cheap rentals where blow-and-go artists have painted everything with flat wall paint.Unless the trim is in awful condition, I would want some sheen to show off the profiles.BruceT
she was the most bizarre client i have ever had
this was trimming out beautiful divided lite marvin french doors and double hungs
1 X 10" drop siding of VG doug fir
hipped roof ( majority of face concealed by gutter ) 5/4 X 8" VG fir facia and a two step elevation soffit 28" wide VG firmuch protestation from me but she would have no other
me pleading forgiveness from footprint gods
You PAINTED VG fir?!!!I'm calling a tribunal on crimes against beautiful lumber. You know they used that "just following orders" defense to no avail in the Nuremburg trials too, don't you? :)Man, I'll bet that hurt with every brush stroke. Hopefully the original clear coat will leave it salvageable some day.BruceT
the posse left 2 hours ago...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I seem to recall some white oak trim being painted white...;)Did she live?
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they got married....
wanna talk about going down hill...
btw... the banisters and room dividers too....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
with pitch forks and torches?
BruceT
tar, feathers and a rail....
2nd timers aren't treated so leniently...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
LOL. good way to put it.'course I have to plead guilty to letting an interior designer paint an antique heart pine floor red.That house got published in a book but when I get compliments on it, I have to hang my head. They tink I'm being humble but it is really shame.
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"'course I have to plead guilty to letting an interior designer paint an antique heart pine floor red."Please, no more confessions! Will there be no one left here for me on the BT pedestal?:)BruceT
You made my mouth drop open for painting CVF fir!Hope I can get it closed again by tomorrow morning, or somebody's gonna wonder about my expression
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ultra deep base would be the least hiding of the bases, used for clean and/or dark colors that cannot have much, if any, TiO2 in them.Ask about a tinted primer to hide the lighter colored factory primer and to get the substrate for the topcoat into similar brown tones that won't show through so much.Somebody mentioned rolling first, then brushing it out. Absolutely the best way; you'll get more paint on the surface and speed the job up immensely. Use a 3/8" nap roller (conventional or wiener rollers are both fine) and roll out a section at a time, then back-brush. Work in sections just large enough that as you brush the new section back into the previous, there's still a wet edge to blend into. A good way is to roll a big letter "N" about 3 feet high to deliver paint across the section, then roll horizontally to spread and fill in, then blend back to the previous section and brush smooth. Remember to use smooth somewhat slow movements. Paint is viscous, so it needs time to flow off the roller or brush. BruceT
I went to the SW store this morning and spoke with the manager. He's going to check it out with SW, but he thought it should cover in two coats. Said that a custom match to sample paint shouldn't be a problem as the SW computer won't let them make a color for certain applications (like exterior) if it won't hold up or cover well.<!----><!----><!---->
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Thanks for all of the help. I'll let you know what SW comes up with. <!----><!---->
The SW store manager came out to my house this afternoon (her request) to have a look at the poor coverage problem and agreed that the custom mix was not covering as well as it should. She thought using a roller may help some, but didn't think using a brush was the whole problem. She said she would review my custom match formula with the SW rep and see if it could be changed slightly to improve coverage without changing the color too much. I have no problem with the color being a shade darker. She called me at 4:30pm and said she had a gallon of the new mix ready to try (at no charge). If I like the coverage and color, she will replace the four unused gallons of the old mix with the new, also at no charge. I'll pick it up tomorrow and give it a try. So far, I'm very impressed with the service. I'm glad I only bought enough paint to do the first coat to start with so I don't have more to return. Dumb as I am, sometimes I get it right. <!----><!----><!---->
Now that's is some serious customer service. Good for them for standing behind their product... and good for you for following up on it.
If possible, let use know what they claim the difference is between the old and new (assuming the new works better). Is it possible they made a mistake the first time around? If not, what happens a year from now when you buy another gallon?
Said that a custom match to sample paint shouldn't be a problem as the SW computer won't let them make a color for certain applications (like exterior) if it won't hold up or cover well.
The computer only limits the pigment selection for interior or exterior use. Your selection of the Duration grade of product set the mark for durability.
As Bruce pointed out ,deep tint bases contain very little TiO2 and a lot of inert fillers that do not contribute to the hiding. Ask the store manager what wet film thickness gave the optimum hiding on the wet film draw down test of the deep tint base. That is the film tickness you need to build in order to get complete hiding, no matter how many coats it takes. Because they don't know what additional colorants will be added to a deep tint base, they must leave a lot of room for additional pigments that, as a rule, increase the hiding. When you get to the yellow iron oxide and high chromate colorants the "rules" sort of break down because those colors have poor hiding characteristics.<!----><!----><!---->
How are you applying the paint? Is your technique different for the trim than it is for the siding?
Good point. In my experience the best coverage occurs when you roll it on and then back brush. Straight brushing goes on thinner.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'm using a Purdy pro-extra glide, polyester, nylon, chinex, 3" brush for both the trim and siding. I'm taking my time and working the paint into the substrate and then back brushing to even things out. I'm making a special effort to get as even a coat as possible on the siding, but it's still thin in places after 3 coats.<!----><!----><!---->
As Dan H pointed out, and we use the same protocol, apply with roller (usually a 3/8nap and backbrush. First, it is much faster than using brush alone and second the coverage will improve.
I have always found that unless you prime with a similar tint, you get "grooves" that just do not want to get filled with brush alone.
I believe Duration was formulated to be somewhat fast drying and therefore you have limited time for brushwork.
Best of luck
Bruce
Edited 7/6/2009 8:21 am by Hiker