A little background info, we bought our current house in June 08. It was a new construction spec house. It had been sitting empty for a year, builder wanted too much money for the trim level it has. This is an upscale neighborbood in central MO, most of my neighbor house have hardwood floors, granite counters, fancy master baths and such. Our house has a granite island, but formica counters elsewhere. It doesn’t have the level of trim as our neighbors. This is the reason I was told it sat so long. But the house meets my family needs just fine.
Now to my problem. The main level of my two story house is carpet and tile. The tile is in the entry way, goes around to the garage entry to the mudroom, and around the corner into the kitchen dining and kitchen itself. I have noticed several tiles cracked, and the builder replaced them under the thirty day warranty thing. Now, I have noticed a lot more cracked tiles, as well as “dips” or depressions in the tile. I was concerned that the subfloor was inadequate as the base for the tile. I had the builder come back out today and see the depressions in the tile.
His opinion is that it’s just cheap tile. He admitted he used the cheapest tile the lumber yard had at the time. He also thought some of the unlevelness of the floor was due to the floor joists crowned wrong when they were set. He walked around in the finished basement under the kitchen and mudroom looking for drywall cracks. There are none. He said the drywall would crack if the subfloor was damaged. He did say the subfloor is 3/4″ with 3/4″ durock under the tile. The tile sure does have a lot of uneveness to it.
I also just thought about the subfloor and durock combination. Is there an easy way to tell if there really is durock under the tile? I can see between the living room carpet and the kitchen tile that they are even with each other. I tried to pry back some carpet to see under the tile but no go. Maybe drill a really small hole from the unfinished basement into the subfloor in the laundry room and see if the dust changes from sawdust to concrete dust?
I guess my question is does the builders answer of the tile just being cheap is correct or is there some other thing going on with the subfloor/base for the tile?
Thanks for reading all this.
Replies
Thurd...first off even if they did use CBU's (cement boards) a 3/4" subfloor isn't to code for tile. It should be a minimum of 1 1/8" or as most of us builders go...we usually use 3/4" and 1/2"...I just spoke in another thread about how I even go with dbl 3/4" in questioanble cases and then either 1/2" or 1/4" CBU's.
The CBU's should not be screwed to the floor joists..just the subfloors. Te CBU's should be thinset to the subfloor to take up any voids. The CBU's should be screwed down REALLY good! CBU's do NOT add any strength to the floor btw...it's just the best substrate to tile to.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
The CBU's should not be screwed to the floor joists..just the subfloors. Te CBU's should be thinset to the subfloor to take up any voids. The CBU's should be screwed down REALLY good! CBU's do NOT add any strength to the floor btw...it's just the best substrate to tile to.
All right you commie pinko; I've hoid enough!
If you are thinsetting the cbu to make up any voids, won't screwing the #### out of it push the cbu down into the voids?
And tell me just how you spotted these void and filled them sufficiently to bring them up even with the high points?
And yes, you are correct about not screwing to the joists.
>>If you are thinsetting the cbu to make up any voids, won't screwing the #### out of it push the cbu down into the voids?<<
To a certain extent , yes, the screws push the CBU into the voids, even on 6" centers.
However, it requires precious little flex to crack a tile or break the thinset's bond to it.
I am with Andy on this one - I always thinset the CBU to the subfloor, walk all over it and then screw it down according to the manufacturer's schedule.
I mix the thinset a bit runnier than normal for this purpose.
>>And tell me just how you spotted these void and filled them sufficiently to bring them up even with the high points?<<
The voids being filled are generally small and the runny thinset will find them, therefore the installer does not have to find them.
Even if the thinset does not fill a void 100%, when hardened, it will still provide ridges of support which otherwise would be absent. The support ridges would be 1/4" wide and spaced 1/2" oc. from a standard 1/4" notched trowel.
Thinsetting the CBU to the subfloor is not a floor leveling technique, it is a CBU flex elimination technique.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I was not, nor do I doubt the efficacy of thinsetting the cbu down.
Just some of the thoughts and theories being bandied about.
I'm talking voids not rolling hills. If he has rolling hills then he's got some carpentry to do first...either that or mixing up some self leveling compound but you better know whatcha doing if you plan on using that stuff. It's expensive and starts settin' up in about 10 minutes or so. I like the product by Henry that lets me float it myself. Stuff sets up in about 20-30 minutes. It's a lot cheaper too. I screed it out over my valleys and THEN I do my thinset and plywood.
I JUST used that stuff a cpl of weeks ago and love it in spite of how messy it is.
I went from a feathered edge (over my Hardie) to a bit over 1/2" clear across this room. Came out perfect. Note the dam I had to put up at the threshold so it didn't ooze out the door b/4 it set up. That took 2 bags.
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http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
You still love doing tile??
I'm wrapping up more than two weeks of subway in a big stinky do do bag of a bathroom.
20 frigin corners between ins and outs. nutins plumb, level, square or flat. NUTIN!
oye!
ur still a pinko comy.
You still love doing tile??<<
I actually do like doing it but the way I did this bathroom was moronic...I did it ALONE from gutting to carrying every single sheet of CBU, plywood, sheetrock, million sax O' thinset..cement, sand, over "2000" pounds of tile (said so on the invoice) etc etc etc out from the driveway to the other end of the house and up a flight of stairs.
Actually PatchoguePhil gave me a cpl of days of gutting the two rooms I turned into this one but that was all the help I hired besides the plumbers and Sparky.
I dunno what I wuz thinkin'!!!
If I had someone helping it would have been a joy....next time
Here's just a few pic of it almost done.
BTW all those fixtures, faucets, medicine cab cost about 10K and that was at a discount. That medicine cab took me an entire day to assemble....grrrrrrrrrr
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kaylin bath bowl.JPG
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kaylin shower.JPG
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kaylin shower w seat.JPG
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kaylin shower shower head.JPG
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kaylin other end of shower.JPG
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kaylin vanity medicine cabinet.JPG
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plumbers installing tub.JPG
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installing toilet.JPG
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tub almost in.JPG
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Kaylin Master Bathroom _002.JPG
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Kaylin Master Bathroom _001.JPG
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cbu.JPG
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http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 2/26/2009 9:58 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 2/26/2009 9:59 pm ET by andybuildz
just so ya know the pics ain't showing up on my end.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Wow...yeh I see...they disappeared...maybe I never did that job...musta been a dream
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Here ya go but I don't feel like embedding them so if ya wanna see em' ya gotta click em' open....yawwwwnnnnnnn. Maybe I'll turn it into a slide show from beginning to end when it's 100% done and put em in the photo gallery folder if I don't shoot myself in the head first...
Almost done...ugh
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
looks good.
nice stuff they put in there ...
little bit of tile,
and one of those fancy toilets with a light behind it!
way cool!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
its an electric toilet....seat closes on its own when yer done dumpin'
Shower head cost over a grand...don't even ask/
Oh yeh...medicine cab is over a grand too...I was shidden assembling it...what a nightmare that was...took me over a full day....grrrrrrrr
yeh...little bit a tile...my fingers were bleedin from thinset and water day in and out...lol
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
how long did the whole job take, and was it a total gut?
yeh..total gut of two rooms into that one.
I don't really know exactly how long that took cause I was doing a cpl of other things in that house at the same time...but lets say it took a long time cause I did it alone and it was on the second floor.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
how did you bid it?
He supplied the tiles, grout and fixtures...I supplied eveything else and labor.
My price was $25000
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
What Andy said.
And I've never heard of 3/4" Durock. AFAIK, it only comes in 1/4" and 1/2". Even cheap tile doesn't crack unless it's installed poorly, like with an inadequate subfloor. I'd plan on replacing the tile with wood of some sort, or building a proper subfloor, and that can be problematic if it would interfere with doors, etc.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks everyone so far.
I have doing a search and reading how tile floors are properly installed. Our plan is to install wood floors throughout the first floor, but we were planning on five years out. Got to save up the cash. I guess right now we will just live with it unless it really gets bad.
what everyone else said.
first ... if he really did say "3/4 durock" , I'd ask to see a sample ... as far as I can tell USG doesn't make 3/4.
Not that it would help either. The concrete backer board doesn't provide the strength in a floor system, the wood subfloor does. Subfloor thickness, along with joists sizing and spacing.
the excuse of "cheap tile" is just nonsense.
I can lay the cheapest tile you can pick and have it not crack.
If the carpet and tile are flush, unless the carpeted area is built up, I'd bet the tile is laid directly over the 3/4 plywood subfloor. That would also explain why you can't see "under" the tile ... there may be nothing to see.
Are any tiles near the carpet edge cracked?
You could have him come over to repair one, suggest popping a tile right there on the edge and show you the 3/4 underlayment.
Best fix ... hardwood entry!
coupla years ago I took a quick look before tiling a kitchen, thought I had 3/4 + 1/2" subfloor ... didn't ... and it cracked after the install. Took over 2 years but it cracked. I worked a deal with the clients and they ended up with new hardwood floors through out ... in the end the wife was happy since she didn't want the tile in the first place.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks Jeff, I always enjoy your answers. I have lurked here about ten years now, off and on.
and that last answer might have even had some real info in it ...
U lucked out!
Good luck, btw.
Keep us posted ... we love a good mystery.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa