Soemthing’s wrong with this beam, and I can’t quite put my finger on what it is…..
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Boy that's a real puzzle though I think you need another camera because the lense must be cracked.
roger
I got pulled away from my desk for a while and didn't really get to finish.The beam is in the crawlspace of a fixer-upper house my cousin bought. (Against my advice)The beams are a 4 ply 2X8, spanning 10' between posts. The house is 2 story, with a stick framed roof, so there's a lot of load on the beams. I came up with a design load of 1,838 PLF. So the beams are obviously just a TEENSY bit underdesigned. The house was built by a DIY. And there are no building codes.
Without fools the rest of us could not succeed [Mark Twain]
And I was thinking your spec house was giving you trouble again...........
Joe H
So, now that he's bought the house you told him not to buy, he's expecting you to tell him how to fix it for free?
"now that he's bought the house you told him not to buy, he's expecting you to tell him how to fix it for free?"
I think that sums it up pretty well.
I give him a LITTLE credit - When I was 25 years old, I didn't take advice very well either.
Yeah I'm old. But at least I made it
Not even a bolted on steel plate across the bottom would help those disasters.
Good luck to your cousin! Looks like a lot of jack work.
Hope he does not find what my brother found in 1988 on the house he'd just bought - jacked some beams in the basement to reinforce and the jack punched thru what was only a 1" thick concrete floor!! (He still lives there, had to do lots of work)
words fail meAnd I just got done typing to somebody else that wood ratrely fails catastrophicly!In all my years of crawling under bigazxe houses and repairing beams and foundations, I have never seen the like. The closest is when we point load a temporary beam too hard.The worst part of this is that there isn't a whole lot of elbow room down there to do the necessary work to replace that, and maybe that he will want to go the cheap way out.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"And I just got done typing to somebody else that wood rarely fails catastrophically!"
Well, it hadn't actually FAILED yet - It was just in the process of doing so.
We're looking at the possibility of dragging 10' sections of steel beams down there to replace the 2X8s. Don't know if I'll get roped into helping or not. But it sounds like he's intending to do a good job of fixing the thing.
Unfortunately, he fixed all the drywall cracks and doors that wouldn't close properly already...
Some lead.
Some follow.
I laugh
Perhaps he can just stabilize with the new beam - not lift anymore than neccessary to load the new beam; and not mess up any new work.
Forrest - happy with curves in old houses, as long as they're finished moving.
I just ran the Beamchek demo software on this, and it looks like you could do the job with a sandwich of five southern pine Versalam beams. Due to the limitations of the demo software, I'm not sure. Anyone have the full Beamchek program?George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
I used the full version of BeamCheck.I gave him 3 options.1. A 3 ply 9.5" LVL2. A 2 ply 11 7/8" LVL3. A W8Xsomething steel beam. (Can't remember offhand)
Better over the hill than under the hill
The "notches" on the joists someone pointed out look like crush/compression of the joists to me. The only times I've seen compression like that has been where there was evidence of flooding episodes or, when there is mildew/mold, elevated moisture over periods of time. I have come to believe that such crush is almost certainly a sign od moisture problems. Are there any "high tide" marks on the foundation walls or columns?I've never seen anything fail like in the first pic Is there some unusual point load above it? Say, a structural wall offset from the column?
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
It looked to me like the notched joists were notched in an attempt to make the floor flat when the house was framed. I don't think moisture had anything to do with it. I attached a picture of one of the floor joists near mid span where I took a picture of the grade stamp. You can see it's in pretty good shape.
T-shirt: Maturity Is Overrated
One thing that occurred to me is that the structure may have originally been built without the 2x4 on top of the beam, and, when the joists and beam started crushing, the 2x4 was added on the theory that it would spread the load. The notching was done to permit the 2x4 to fit.(Is is possible that this place was once used to grow pot, and the weight of the dirt caused this damage?)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
As I said earlier - This is not wood crushing - a couple of the joists were notched over one of the posts. I'm guessing it was because the beam was already sagging from the weight of the joists alone, and they had to notch them to keep the floor flat.I didn't see any evidence that anything had been removed and put back. the notches are only about 3/8" deep, so I don't think they had anything to do with the 2X4 on top.
T-shirt: I'll Pay For The Boat If You Shove Off
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Out of pure interest, how did you come to the design load figure?
"Out of pure interest, how did you come to the design load figure?"
The house is 30' wide, and I figure floor loads at 55 PSF. So it would be 15X55 for the first floor load.
The 2nd floor is only on the back half of the house. So I added half of the above load for the 2nd floor.
The roof is framed so the bearing wall above this beam carries half the roof load. Our local design load for roofs is 40 PSF. So I added 15X40, and added it to the other numbers.
I don't have a calculator handy to double check myself....
I decided to get in shape, and the shape I chose was a sphere.
I see what appear to be powder post beetle holes to the right of the photo and direct contact between the (untreated) beam and masonry.
What a train wreck!
Jeff
I don't see anything wrong with that beam.
Looks like the pier is just too high.
Take out the pier and the will "fix it".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Actually, the soil's too hard. Softer soil wouldn't push up on the house so hard.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You been sneaking into my project houses's crawlspace again?! Oh wait..no termite damage, must be a different one of the same high standard.
I had 2x8's spanning like 14'. Built up beam of 3 of them with a flat 2x6 or so on top.
jt8
"We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."
-- Mother Teresa
Your Mom gave me a key.(-:
When *DOESN'T* One Thing Lead To Another?
If you put some more staples on that coaxial cable, I think it could take some of the tension load. Otherwise, it looks like that beam needs one more 2x8.
Glad I could help.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Where would you stick that 2x8?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That looks like my first house i bought when i was 27; the floor sloped 4" from the perimeter of the brick Victorian to the center of the house. I didn't listen, either, cuz i had a dream...and a Shopsmith...and i was 27.
cuz i had a dream...and a Shopsmith...and i was 27.
Man you had it all!
Doug
Except for the house jacks...i had to rent those.
OOO OOO! I know - I know!
View Image
You shouldn't notch the underside (or upperside) of a floor joist, as that is where the load is stretched or compressed.
:>
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I don't think that is notched. You are seeing that much compression!Think a few screws would help or is the HO already screwed?or on a more philosophical line of thought, Did he screw himself, or did the original do the screwing?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If you look at the joists, they appear to be rotted at the contact point, suggesting that the existing beam is a replacement for an earlier rotted-out one.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I'm all but certain that the beam was never relpaced. I didn't see any signs of rot.
I'm not crazy. I've just been in a REALLY bad mood for 30 years
There really isn't that much compression on the block. They put some of that special high strengh motar on there to hold the beam in place. Some of it got slopped up on the beam, so it looks like it has started to rot. The 2x8 aren't structural grade wood.
I'm looking at #534 -- the joist on the left appears to have rot above the 2x4. Of course it's hard to tell from a single picture.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Picture 531 sure looks like the wood has been wet. Of course, you have to poke instead of just look to tell if there's rot or termite damage.
This being a crawl space, is there any reason to stay with the original 10 ft. span, or could you save yourself some money on the beam by putting in more piers and posts to cut the spans to 5 ft?
-- J.S.
It's really up to cousin Bubba. I'm just the advisor in this case.
T-shirt: Let's Not Do Lunch.
Ever.
Speaking of cousin Bubba or is it sister Bubbetta?What has happened with the kitchen. Do they have any cabinets?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The kitchen deal was my Sister and BIL - Not these folks.I've heard that they do have cabinets now, but don't know how functional their kitchen is.I don't plan to go over and ask to see them...(-:
T-shirt: You Probably Don't Recognize Me Without My Cape
Steel was an expensive option when I did mine.
RP in Chatham carries those short lally posts. They were like $20 and hold quite a bit of weight. Shoot, even the cheapie jack-posts were like $15-17, so I sure didn't mind paying a couple extra bucks for the heavier posts which can be secured in place. The pictured one is either the shortest or second to shortest they carried. They had one or two sizes in the warehouse that they didn't have on the computer (hard to sell 'em if you don't have 'em on the system).
When I did my two sub-beams (one the length of the house, one half the length), I ended up mixing nearly a yard of crete in the crawlspace to make the pads. Takes a while, but can be done.
If cousing bubba is planning on doing any floor work in one of the 1st floor rooms, he could temporarily rip open a hole to the crawl to improve access. It can be difficult to get a 10-16' board through a 2' crawlspace access hole (which tend to be in closets).
The second floor complicates the job some (more load to deal with), but it is still very do-able.jt8
"We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."-- Mother Teresa
When I was down in Biloxi the house I was working on had been previously supported by a sort of "lally" I'd never seen before. It was a concrete pyramid of sorts with a hole down the middle. Into the hole was fit a roughly 1" threaded rod with nuts on it and a plate/saddle welded onto the top end. To "jack" the thing you turned the nuts on the rod, pushing against a washer on top of the pyramid.These would have been excellent supports had they been on solid soil (not the sand down there) and had the installers known their arses from the holes in the pyramids. As it was the units had all worked loose and the salt water from the hurricane had rusted the nuts solid, so we had to toss them all.Anyway, this sort of thing seems like a good idea for cases where you need to add another beam or prop up an existing one in a tight crawl. Very stable and, except on Mississippi sand, they provide their own footing of sorts. Of course, this assumes a non-freezing environment.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Those pyramidal supports - did you notice iof the threaded holes were metalor plastic?We use something here that would fit that description ( about four or five feeet tall) except that they have a 1/2" or 5/8" threaded insert of plastic. They are for hold DOWNs instead of hold ups. Simpson post mount hardware
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No threaded holes -- the holes were just clearance holes. The nut bearing on the washer transferred force between threaded rod and pyramid.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
(These units were maybe a foot or 18" when all the way down, with about 8" of practical adjustment upward.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You're my hero dude. Anyone brave enough to stand under that thing long enough to take pictures has my respect! :)
Sounds like your cousin is a real-go-getter. That's good, cuz he's gonna need that. I wish him the best with his new home..... but you do know that you're gonna get roped into putting Humpty Dumpty back together again too, right? Ain't family great?
Wow, that's about as bad as it gets.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.