I’m putting crown around 6 bullnosed outside corners and decided to try the “wire lath and plaster, radiused crown, method.”
Here is the pic I lifted from JLC and a few of the first steps I took today. The crown is 6-1/2″, so I doweled the corner and doubled the wire lath.
Tonight I grind a knife and tomorrow I’ll try the first coat of 210 minute mud.
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Brian,
Is the first pic the finished product or the objective?
'At any rate, I have rebuilt some gold leaf plaster frames in the past and would be eager to learn a new technique.
You post some great projects. Most folks have no idea the effort and time it takes to document a procedure and results.
Thanx for sharing.
Chuck S
Chuck,The first pic is the goal...I hope mine turns out that well.Strange and wonderful projects do sometimes find me. Always glad to share the wealth.Stay tuned...Cheers,Brian
I'm watching too! :)--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
I think you would benefit from having a wood guide that follows the radius on the ceiling. Your knife can then rest against the guide as you move it around the corner. You might get less "chatter" then doing it free hand.
I did a curved portion of crown with plaster of paris - not a tight curve like you but a 45 degree curve over 4ft - and a plywood profile temporarily screwed to the ceiling helped maintain the position of my knife.
Edited 5/13/2008 9:32 pm ET by Chucky
I'll try the wood guide idea, thanks.
You pull that off, and you will most certainly join my list of BT heros.
Good luck BW.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Wow...I'll give 'er a go.
How are you making the knife? Bench grinder?
I've seen them repairing cornice like that on TOH. Looks pretty cool. I'd like to try that.
I roughed out the shape with a portable bandsaw, then worked the profile on the bench grinder and touched it up with a dremel tool.Now I'm ready for work tomorrow.
Great idea to use a drywall knife for this. the built-in handle will help.
If you do use a template, you might want to cut a bit of the blade so that it registers against the template. and use a smooth piece of wood like hardboard or baltic-birch plywood. you want something that won't snag.
..and dont use plaster of paris...it sets too quickly...much to my dismay. I knew it would set up quickly but i didn't account for my inexperience.
Nice job on the knife. Good Luck.
Thanks,All went well today. Put in 240' of the 6-1/2" crown and did the first coat on the outside corners.Tomorrow I will sand and recoat, among other things.Cheers,Brian
I'm thinking you might want to seal that end grain with Durham's or Plaster Weld before you mud.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Another good tip, thanks.
I'm thinking you might want to seal that end grain with Durham's or Plaster Weld before you mud.
I'm wondering about the same thing. I cant imagine that the bond between raw wood and plaster(or some form of plaster) will be lasting? Dont know but I see cracks in plaster to wood conections all the time.
I'm thinking that I could turn that out of wood and have 4 outside corners(from one circle) and then I'd have wood to wood conection.
Dont know anything about this application but when I saw that first pic(over at JLC) that Brian showed on his initial post I wondered about the old saying, just because you can dont mean that you should.
Be currious to see this now and a year from now.
Doug
I am watching and learning.
Forrest
Forrest,This is a first for me, so I'm learning right along with the rest of y'all.Wish me luck,Brian
This is a first for me, so I'm learning right along with the rest of y'all.
You're a bold man. I admire that.
Wouldn't they have used plaster in the old days rather than setting compound? Of course, they probably didn't even have setting compounds, but I'm just wondering if the way the material works and sets up might not be easier with one versus the other. I have no plaster experience, so I'm just throwing it out for your consideration. I suppose a little practice is in order... just keep in mind that when it comes to the real thing, gravity will not be in your favor.
My plan is to use 210 minute Durabond. I have no experience with true plaster work, though that might be in order here.More to follow,Bass
Seems like you might want to use a faster set type. It's not going to take you long to swoop it in place and the sooner it sets up, the less sag you'll get.Also - would it behoove you to drill some holes in the end grain and glue in a few bent rods (mini-rerod) to help tie-in the end wood with the mud corner?JT
The 210 mud worked well, as luck would have it.I ran two screws through the wire lath and into the crown on each side (the wire lath is also stapled onto the crown). I also gave the end-grain a good primer coat. These corners are on very short runs of crown (1-2' max) and are secured well at the outside corners and the joints at the other end of each piece are coped and can move (to help the plastered corners live a low stress life).
The 210 mud worked well, as luck would have it.
How thick did you mix it? Any additives? Did you have any problems with sagging? Did you just run the knife at 90° and follow the corner around? How many coats did it take? Could we see a close-up pic of that corner?... Oh, and why is the sky blue?
I know that's a lot of questions, but it's the part of the process that I was the most curious about. I have had very limited success whenever I try to shape compound with a knife.
No Additives and a stiff mix, no sagging issues...think the double layered wire lath really helped grab and hold the mud. If I was just placing mud in an overhead void--I don't think it would hang in there.The knife followed the curved guide I screwed to the ceiling and the wall (with a light touch--just grazing the guide surface and moving as smoothly as possible--the motion is a combination of frosting a cake and defusing a bomb).Close up to follow,Bass
Don here is the close up of the fill coat and the sanded second coat:
Well done, as usual."I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Thanks Nick,These corners took about 2 hours each... even the drywall guy who hand textured the ceiling liked them. They were a nice break from running baseboards today.Brian
Breaking up a mudbase shower is a nice break from baseboard. Anything is a nice break from baseboard. Not that there is anything wrong with baseboard. It's just a knee killer, and boring. The only baseboard job I enjoyed was a four piece base a few years ago, and even that was boring, cause I had to go around the same room FOUR times. But it looked great in the end.
Still... Baseboard. I'd almost rather paint. Almost.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Next chance I get, I'll be gittin' one of these for baseboard installing:http://www.racatac.com/racatac.html
Just the ticket for the Tour De Base!"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Just picture it for that 4 layer base job...like laps on the track.
Awesome work! Thanks.
Nice work. Now that you're done can I have the knife.....lol
Thanks,I sure don't expect to use that knife again...not many 6-1/2" crowns running around bullnose corners...guess I can hang it on the wall in the shop as part of a funky shrine to single use tools.Later,Bass
Glad it worked out so smoothly for ya!
Funny your jiggy saw upside down is like what I made for a ersatz bandsaw when I was starting out. Drilled a hole in a hunk of ply, poked the blade thru, and screwed the B&D POS jigsaw to the plywood. Inverted over a 55 gallon drum and I was in bidness! LOL
Did I mention it was LOUD?
Huh? whatdya say?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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D,Some of the stuff we improvise on the job is ingenious or scary or both...loud is an extra perk.This job when very well and it is by the hour. :o)Bass
My wife gets the fone and dials 9, 1....and waits when I IMPROVISE..like the biscuit joiner blade in the angle grinder..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Here is a pic of the knife in action:
Looks good Brian. Don't do so much finish carpentry now- mostly stair work, but if I do I'll certainly ask about how you made that knife.Keith
Kieth,I saw your bent lam. tread thread--very cool.I'm working on stair rails today, but only do maybe one every other month.G'day,BC
Yur welcome, Sir.
It was mentioned to use a temporary template on the ceiling, dumb question but how is it temporary?I love tackling projects like this as well, most of the time the boss is the one to instigate such projects, so he dosen't mind the labour.
temporary if you use a template on the outside of the crown.
In the pic, they use what will obviously be a permanent template :-) Nothing wrong with that either. Probably even better.
Here is the template, the painter will just have a few small screw hole to fill:
Brain,Looks like a fun job. Jogged my memory about an chapter I saw in "The best of fine homebuilding- finish carpentry" from 1998. I'll read through it tonight but I suspect you'll do just fine.Keith
Keith,I'll be curious to see what you find out. I did not know this kind of thing had been in a FHB before.Thanks for the vote of confidence. I had a good day working on this project. I like to push the boundaries of my experience, when I get the chance.Cheers,Brian
Brian,You can read the article on line, here is the name of it. Just look it up on finehomebuilding.com Making Plaster Molding
Sometimes complex shapes and profiles are easier to make in plaster than in wood ...
by Frank C. FreyvogelGood luckKeith
If that is the elliptical archtop casing article...I have read that one...a good read.
Nice job, I would suspect with the lathe, dowels, staples and glue there shouldn't be much cracking. I was thinking it is similar to using that epoxy wood filler or the wood re-builder products. wonder if they would work too."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Glad you like it.Like you, I think that there are several products that could work for this kind of thing. Perhaps next time, I'll do each corner with a different product. ;o)
Might add floor patching and leveling compounds used by sheet good flooring installers to your list of materials to try. Local yard here sells Webfoot brand (IIRC) that sets fast , dries hard, final color is white and it bonds extraordinarily well to wood. It seems to be "smoother " when mixed than fast setting muds are. I have used it with great success to patch various wood items. I believe it has an adhesive as part of the compound. I even used it to patch authentic plaster and then just lightly skimmed it to achieve the final look.
Edited 5/15/2008 1:19 am by dovetail97128
Very nice. Follow up with completed pics, and some down the rodif you able. To see how it stands up to time.
I remember a past article on this. Very cool you came up with a fresh idea.
( I have every mag of FHB I'm sure, as well as FWW. Can't say enough of the publication)
You must have meant that to be posted to basswood. I am just another interested looker on here.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sorry, not used to the reply style here. Long time reader, Getting more frequent on the boards. Gotta love Tauntin though.
Thanks John,It is always fun to try something new.A few more pics will follow in the next week or so.
I've used those products to skim coat cement board, where it extends past the shower and tile--to blend into the regular drywall. Very smooth and waterproof, unlike other muds.Now I use it to tape all cement board joints, with the fiberglass mesh tape (instead of thinset). Provides the smoothness of joint compound and the watertolerance of cement-based products.It did not occur to me that this would be another good use for it...duh.Thanks for the tip.
we're all cheering for you. is it possible that in the "finished" photograph the radiused outside corner was a pre-fabricated component,similar to the pre-fab outside corners available for the home handyman?
also-I have serious concerns that you are going to have a persistent crack where the flat stock meets the curve.
PS- consider BONDO- apply it in thin multiple coats as the foundation,use Durham water putty as the finish coat ( careful-swells slightly and is tough to sand) touch up with spackle.
Good luck!
Here are the other thumbnail photos of the process, as posted at JLC:I added the doweling step and doubled the wire lath to help prevent cracking on the wood to plaster joint.Gotta get to work,Bass
if you look closely at thumb_crown1.jpg, i think it looks like there is a radiused template for the blade to rest against.
Here is the curved jig I made, it worked pretty well:
I like that method of circle cutting. I'm pretty good at figuring out unconventional ways of doing things but that is simply genious.--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Thanks.It did make short work of cutting perfect circles. Necessity is a mother!
Your circle-cutting setup looks like a scene from an old Tom & Jerry cartoon.
BruceT
Is that good or bad? :o)
Sorry, that joke was too obscure. The Tom & Jerry reference was to those old cartoon scenes where one character saws a hole in the floor from the ceiling below and you see the saw blade making a perfect circle in the floor around the poor guy who's standing there.BruceT
Edited 5/16/2008 11:36 am by brucet9
I thought that was what you meant.I don't mind being compared to a cartoon either...plenty of zany characters on the jobsite.
nice, very nice.
and just when i was going to try to get bullnose corners outlawed.....
how do you wrap base around those ?
carpenter in transition
Thanks Tim,This house has pieces that transition from bullnose to square at just above baseboard height. I can get a photo of that too.Brian
and just when i was going to try to get bullnose corners outlawed.....
where does one sign that petition?
Doug
Here are the bullnose to square transition beads:
is that a trimtex part ?
carpenter in transition
Yes, trimtex.
Cool Ideas, but fraught with problems I think.
There are gaging plasters, moulding plasters, base plasters, lime putty and all sorts of stuff involved in traditional plaster crown, and I 'Think' that the interface of wood to plaster is a no-no.
I do hope I am wrong about that last part, but I know that it is true about the first part. The job I am on just now is also being worked on by a plaster pro, I won't see him again till I am back on Monday, but he'd have a lot to add on this.
I wish ya luck!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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As Julian mentioned, I'd be concerned about the plaster/wood joint cracking. I agree that it would be a good idea to drill and epoxy some dowels or something into the end grain of the wood. Better yet, screws would provide much better anchoring as the plaster forms around the screw heads. I'd still drill and set them in epoxy, as driving the screws may split the wood.
Whatever the case, I wouldn't do this without some sort of mechanical method to tie the different materials together. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Ted,There is plenty holding the corners together...they are doweled with glue and pins through the crown and dowels, the doubled layers of wire lath are stapled to the crown, and to the dowels and the lath is screwed to the crown too.I don't expect major issues with cracking...time will tell.
Here is a photo that shows how short these pieces of crown are (that and with the doweling and doubled wire lath stapled and screwed to the crown)--stresses on these corners will be mitigated--I hope:
Just out of curiosity------Time that one corner has/will take-----And the cost to the client. It did also occur to me that the previous corner MIGHT have been something like Fypon, out of a mold, I've had circle heads fabricated by them.
Edited 5/14/2008 6:05 am ET by Pelipeth
See my post to BBK...shows pics of the method.
I was actually wondering if the corner was Z-flex.
You can do this with wood too.
Glue 4 blocks together with paper between the joints.
Turn on a lathe to match the crown profile, then separate at the paper.
Magic, 4 corner pieces.
Joe H
Yes, I would do that if I were doing stain-grade or if the crown runs were long.
Looks great! Hope it holds up. You are now officially on my list of BT heros.
That, and .50 STILL won't get ya your cuppa joe tomorrow.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Hey, you do some awesome stuff too...but flattery is cool with me.I'll post pics of the finished results and will give a report on any cracks one year from now...just in case the naysayers are right.
Here is the latest...now it is the painters turn.I may be a couple of weeks before paint.
I just had a thought as I looked at that pic. Do you think it would have been any improvement to have beveled the ends of the wood pieces instead of square cutting them? Got my mind working now.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Beveled would be better...and worse....would make drilling for dowels easier and would hold mud...attaching lath with screws and staples would be harder.
David,I finally stopped by and snapped a few final pics of the crown painted. The plaster corners are a tad glossy, but the overall effect is good.
I really like that detail!
Glad you like it Shep.It was a fun little project.Are you back into the swing of things at home. I had a fest hangover for several days.Cheers,Brian
I had work for Weds., Thurs., and Friday last week, so it was jumping back in with both feet. I did get these strange, vacant, happy looks on my face from time to time, tho.
Today is was supposed to start a master closet remodel, but the HO called Saturday and asked me to start tomorrow. So today I slept late, did some odds and ends cores, and got fed lunch AND dinner by DW.
Sounds like you are pacing yourself... good idea. ;o)
Thanks bw. I think it finished out great. Hope it stands the test of time as well.
Sorry I missed ya at Doud's. Hopefully next year.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Thanks David,I sure hope it holds up too.I'll try to make the next fest too... I really enjoyed the gathering at the Doud'sGood night,Brian
fantastic!
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
Thanks, nice to do work outside the box.