Ive been to two meetings already . Im a cub scout leader. I met the new kids entering with their families. I spoke to them about the stuff we do. I told them it wasnt a baby sitter service , that I needed their support and their kid does too. I will expect a parent with the child and help from the parents at home. I lost half of them after I said it!!! Thought maybe you skilled people have been set up to do this also. I really enjoy it. Any one have any thoughts about what these parents did ?
Tim Mooney
Replies
Well, I have some input. But it may not be what you're looking for.
I've done very little for the scout troups my boys have been in over the years. That's not because I don't care about scouts - I just don't have the time to get seriously involved in everything they do. If I got involved in scouts, soccer, basketball, and every other activity they do I'd have to quit my job.
That definitely doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the efforts of people like you who take the time to do it. But everyone has their strengths, and dealing with groups of kids isn't mine. I don't have the patience to be a scout leader, or the skills to be a soccer coach.
I've helped with things from time to time. Did an engineering merit badge thing for a scout group when I was asked. (Figured I could keep my cool for an hour or 2 and not smack the obnoxious little jerks in the group)
I figure I do my share of other volunteer things in town - I'm in Lions, and I take care of that equipment. (That's about 150 hours a year) I also do a lot of work for the local historical society. And volunteer at a recycling center and wildlife rehab occasionally.
So do I have a point? You may have alienated them by saying "I will expect a parent with the child". They may not have the time to do that. What would YOU think if your kid's soccer coach said he expected you to be at every practice, and also work with them at home?
You might have more success by asking each parent to sign up to be the "designated babysitter" at ONE meeting, or take care of ONE project. But you'll never get every parent to be at every meeting.
Black holes are where God divided by zero.
I am deleting my text, because Mongo, Boss, and Andy have said everything I said, only better, and my approach sounded more critical or negative than I intended.
Quittin' Time
Edited 9/4/2002 3:49:12 PM ET by Luka
Tim, I'm an assistant Scoutmaster with my older son, and an assistant Den Leader with my younger. What rank is your Den? My youngest is now a Junior Webelo, and since he was a Tiger Cub, I don't think we've ever had 100% parental participation. In a den of 17 kids, we rarely have more than 4 or 5 parents helping out. But that's enough, if you've got an activity that engages them. Anything that requires tools seems to work with us. We've built catapults, almost perpetual motion machines, puppets and electrical circuits. Do you have any of the Cub activity books? We've also invited guests, like our town's Resident State Trooper and his dog. Visit the fire house, get the local ambulance to come by. Flashing lights are good.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I've lead Cub Scouts for five years, Girl Scouts for six.
I agree that Cubbies isn't a babysitting service...I think the program is set up to help the kids learn a little more about being a good citizen, a good neighbor...essentially, to be a better person. To not be self-centered, but to look outside your home and see how you can make your neighborhood or your town a better place to live.
Hopefully I'm not too altruistic in those sentiments.
I require two adults at each meeting. Myself and someone else. If more parents want to attend, they certainly may. I do try to get each parent to sign up for at least one meeting during the year. I try to organize that meeting to take advantage of the attending parents' talents or interests...woodworking, cooking, hiking, volunteerism, etc. Virtually any interest can be melded to coincide with completeing some requirement for some badge.
On overnights, I do request that a parent attend with each child. If parents either can't attend or don't want to attend, I don't penalize the cubbie by excluding them from the overnight.
I do sometimes send the kids home with "homework" to be done with their parent or guardian. The "safety pamphlet" in the beginning of the Cubbie book, for instance, as well as some badge requirements.
Realize that not all biological parents are good at parenting. Some parents will blow you away with their level of participation. Other parents will lead you to believe the cubbie was hatched from an egg. Some parents are glued to the TV, some are glued to their career.
The good thing is that for whatever reason, the kid has signed up for Scouts. Scouts can be an avenue to expose kids to things (camping/hiking/community service, etc) that they otherwise wouldn't get to do based upon their family life. It's going to be what you and the kids make it.
Have fun!
Good points Mongo. I also think it's important to make parents aware that their help is welcome. Not everyone realizes this fact, and some parents of new Cubs can feel as if they're intruding on a going operation.
We're fortunate in both the Cubs and Scouts in my town to have a bunch of interested and involved parents. I think our adults have as much fun as the do the kids. It makes for a very strong bit of the community.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I must applaud all those involved in the support of scouting.My growing up involved a large input from cub and boy scouts that carries many pleasant memories today among myself and others I grew up with. A salute to those desiring and doing an impartation of solid growth to those kids, needed so much more now seeing what different things they face than when we were young.
A fellow scouter from back then now runs a cable company and was able to donate a crew to do line work at the major campground all scouts travelled yearly to for their one week escapade each summer. In response the leaders held an honorary dinner for contributors and to hear him talk of it was was a real roar from the input he received in being there again. Changes and what was still the same, koolaid still called bugjuice, milk- moo juice, locations of ponds, the quartermasters where we bought our neckerchief slides to paint and such. It put a little bit of heaven in his soul. He still talks about it now and then. Thanks and a hat-tip to yas. Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Rez, where are you? I ask because Kool-Aid's called bug juice here in CT, as well. And Scout camp food, well, that's hot, brown and there's plenty of it. Did you guys do the 6 AM polar bear swim at camp?
Funny we should be on this topic today -- I've got Boy Scouts tonight. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I'm in northeast ohio and the winter campouts were always in the log cabin by the creek.Bean shooters fights in the cabin were the stuff dreams were made from. It seems I vaguely recall some of the guys braving the elements. I do remember some of the mothers would have shot the scoutmasters if they'd found out. Some of those mamas could be possessive. We always had scouts at the neighborhood methodist church on monday night about two miles away. Decided to run home one night after the meeting at twilight. Took off full steam sprint and got about three houses down and didn't see the mailbox on the pole at all. Didn't know a knot on the collar bone could get so big.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
"I also think it's important to make parents aware that their help is welcome."
You betcha, Andy. And if any parent ever does volunteer...use them. Don't ever let a gesture like that go unused. No matter what you use them for, use them for something.
My kids also make "Thank You" certificates that are presented to the helpful parents at the Blue and Gold. I hate to say it (not really<g>), but it makes the few that didn't help in the preceeding year (they are still sitting at the Den table while the volunteers are up on stage) stand out like a sore thumb. It always pumps up parental volunteerism for the following year's activities.
Im going to give my brief here to every one.
First off , Im an aggressive leader . I want the book finished by the end of the year. This includes arrow points which is optional. The cub scout master has directed me to do it as I wished ,as long as Im following rules and regulations. The statement I made is my own judgement call. I want to explain the problem.
I use my time for the projects cub scouts must be together on. My shop is opened at every meeting to do our projects. This is the main reason they asked me to do it . Third year. I decide what can be done at home for lesson plans. This is home work for the scout and parent. The parent is the one that signs off on each excercse. For all that dont remember the parent really is to complete every thing with the child and give their signature. [ this is not my job ]
Heres where the problem comes to play . Six of them fly along at my pace finishing every thing . They complete every project in my shop, and learn a tremendous amount. Six kids get behind for parents reasons , because its up to the parent to make sure they are there and do the lesson plans at home. Stretch it out to 3 months , and the kid doesnt have a chance to finish or be able to enjoy scouting . I could make many examples . I will give one ; All the boys finished a blue bird house and built a kite in the same night that were there . Some of the boys showed up the next time to watch the others flying there kites and to watch the others paint the bird houses. [I cant make their house . Its an exercise they get credit for] Now you need to think what happens if they dont show up for a month.
If a parent doesnt participate , the child doesnt have a chance. Am I to hold the others back , and have a whole class that doesnt finish? The parents and children that show up, do the work, are the ones that get the benifit of my work. I put in four to eight hours preparing for every meeting , and cleaning up after their gone so my shop is back to business again. If Im willing to give this effort [which I am] they can show up and do their lesson plans. IMO
Tim Mooney
Piffin , I dont mind anyone being critical. I wouldnt have posted this if I didnt see a problem . My troop agrees with the statement I made. But , that doesnt leave it with out there being a problem. There is also a problem if the kids dont graduate. I look at it as the same as school in a way. Some of the resposes have sounded like every thing will be nice since the kids are getting to be in scouts. Like thats all there is to it. Just be there to show up, and recieve their badges at the pack meetings . When a child doesnt do their work , they watch the others get badges, awards , and watch the others show off their work at pack meetings.
What kind of leader would I be if I just threw the book away , and didnt teach them ?Where would you draw a line ? Im not going to be the leader which doesnt teach. I will resign first . They have to earn achievement or they arent going to get it handed to them.
Tim Mooney
Wow! I don't know, Tim! The e-mail response notice brought me here and I don't remember ever reading this thread before or posting. Did I post in my sleep or is Prospero messing something up? I'm all confused....
Now that I've read it, I agree with your strong stand for integrity. After all, that's what scouting is all about. I was an assistant leader for a few years. The leader and I were the only ones involved so we got burned out once my boys were out of it, so was I.
I'm kind of an all or nothing type and like Boss, I don't always do well with kids.
Hat's off to you and I still donate to BSAExcellence is its own reward!
Im sorry Piffin , it was Luka who deleted his message for the reason I stated . I thought I pulled him down in the drop down name menu. My mistake.
Tim Mooney
Easy enough to do. Luka and I show up in a lot of the same places. But if you see us in person, there'll be no mistaking...
;)Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I'll be the wierdo with the tin foil hat, and Piffin will be the one woth the headpiece that gives him that direction connection to God.
: )Quittin' Time
You mean that hat with dual coffee cup holders satisfying my caffine high?????
What color is your tin foil this month?
;)
Excellence is its own reward!
Color ???
What do you think I am ? A clothes-horse ???
It's green, of course.Quittin' Time
luka- can you really pick up radio waves with that hat?Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Pick them up ???!!?
The purpose is to block out all those government mind control radio waves.
: )Quittin' Time
____________________________*_________**___*________Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
You better get some tin foil, quick !! It looks like they are getting to you.
: )Quittin' Time
Where's that radiant foil guy when you need him?Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Here's a Boy Scout question for youse guys; not Cubs now, but kids who've crossed over. We're planning a trip up to Cape Cod later this month to bicycle and camp over a Saturday night. It's about a three hour drive, nothing the troop hasn't done before. But we're getting some flak about the distance from home, mainly from parents of newer Scouts.
Does this seem like an unreasonable distance? What sorts of outings do other Boy Scout troops come up with? We try to do an overnight trip monthly.Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I don't think 3hrs is unreasonable. When I was a scout, we did at least 1 overnight a month (even winter camping in February). Most were within an hour, but some trips were in the 3hr range.
What's their beef? Do the parents that are going have time constraints? Mothers getting itchy about their babes so far away?
Sounds like something the boys will love....there's your answer right there.
Most of our trips are an hour or so away, but there's only so much to do within an hour of anyone's home town. It's tough to find fresh activities without having some drive time.
The beef is from a few parents getting itchy about their boy being so far away. These parents aren't going along, and most of the adult leaders going were in on the planning session, so they aren't complaining. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
I can see where some folks would look at 3 hours as an excessive drive for an overnighter, but in the same breath I would have a question 'if it was to Six Flags would they say anything about it?' and chances are they probably wouldn't.
Just wanted to add a little fuel to your thinking cap over parental psyche.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Andy,
Some overnights we've done as first-year Webelos and younger:
Sleepover on the USS Massachusetts (done that twice) in Fall River...about 75 minutes from here.
Sleepover at Roger Williams Zoo in Providence. About an hour or so from here.
Sleepover at the Boston Museum of Science. Side trips to Old Ironsides and Bunker Hill. About 2.5 hours from here.
Sleepover in Provincetown...about 3 hours.
This fall we're doing Mt Monadnock, about a 2.5 hour drive.
We have gone further, but those were 2 night trips. The ones above were all one-night trips.
The kids want to do a several-night Springfield (basketball)/Cooperstown (baseball)/Albany(overnight at an indoor rock wall climbing facility)/Niagara Falls trip in the spring. We'll see about that one!
Thanks Mongo. We're doing the Freedom Trail in Boston this November with the Boy Scouts. BTW, I was chatting with a guy at Sturbridge Village this past summer who was denied access to Old Ironsides because he was carrying a Swiss Army knife. What a world it's become. Did Monadnock two springs ago. There's a huge weather difference between the top and the bottom, and the youngest scouts struggled on the way up. A lot of the leaders struggled on the way down. I never knew just how bad my knees were until about halfway down. Bug spray is a requirement in the campground.
What's to do in Cooperstown besides the baseball hall of fame? That seems like it might be good for a couple of hours at best. Same question with the Massachusetts?
We've camped at West Point on Scout weekend. Good trip. Same with biking Block Island. Camp at Fishermans' Memorial, ride the bikes to the ferry, and go round the island. That's a good September trip. Watch for skunks at the campground.
I just reserved a cabin at Workcomen for a January trip, and one at Mattatuck to turn the Klondike into an overnight. (Hey -- Troop 65 took first and third at the Klondike last year! Those kids were pumped!)
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
"What's to do in Cooperstown besides the baseball hall of fame? That seems like it might be good for a couple of hours at best. Same question with the Massachusetts?"
At Cooperstown we played baseball! It took a while to get permission (got it before we left), but we ended up playing a pickup game with another group that we met there. Kind of fun, as the stands fill up with a few hundred spectators there to visit the HoF. Fun for the kids and adults. The HoF is good for a few hours to a half-day. If there is a scheduled game, that's good for a few more hours. We planned our arrival in the morning, did sightseeing, lunch, played ball, more HoF and sightseeing. Spent the night at a campground. Left the next morning.
The sleepover on the USS Massachusetts can be a bit hectic. Envision 600 scouts running around on a battleship.<g> Arrival time is around 5:00pm. A bit of an intro, then dinner. Some evening programs, knot tying, old WWII movies, dogtag making. Storytelling. Lots of displays on the battleship. WWII history mostly. You'll sleep either on the USS Mass or a destroyer, the JFK. Either is fine. the Kennedy is almost better, as it's less crowded. In the morning, breakfast is served. Cleanup your gear, then you can hang out for the morning or day and check out the rest of the ships. Submarines, PT boats, etc. The kids enjoyed it, though it's a bit nutty for the adults. Fun...but busy keeping track of the kids. With your kids being older I'm sure there'd be a bit less supervision.
Good tips on your trips. Block Island is something I've been contemplating. We may see you in Boston this fall. Look for a grumpy old limping man surrounded by tired looking kids. I'll be carrying a well thumbed issue of FHB, of course.<g>
Then we'll be twins!Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
You have the right to run the den as you like, and the parents have the right and the responsibility to find a den that works with their family life. If you keep enough boys to keep the den active, then be happy.
FWIW, our family wouldn't be a candidate for your den. I am more than willing to help with my kids' activities; in fact, I quit work and gave up my income to do just that. I do a tremendous amount of volunteer work, almost all of it with children. Committing to participate in every den meeting would be an inappropriate committment for me to make for that exact reason.
Do you work in your kids' classroom every week? Run a 2 week summer program for 300 kids every year? Work at the school bazaar, lead children's worship at church or act as the school art docent, all on a volunteer basis as I do? Of course you don't - you're at work all day! But I'm not a Scout Leader and you are. Viva la difference.
Our den leaders have the philosophy that every parent gives what he/she can. I respect them for what they do and they respect me for what I do. In our den the parents trade off helping at den meetings and events, which gives us all a chance to contribute in a way that is most appropriate and fun for us all.
Our twins are 2nd year Weblos, and have been in Scouts since 2nd grade. They can't wait to cross over into Boy Scouts in February. I'm wondering if a program as intense as yours' wouldn't have burned them out by now. Our boys haven't earned every possible badge and award, but their belts are full of loops, thier vests are full of patches, their hats are full of pins and they love scouting. Seems to work to me.
So stick with what works for you, but don't be surprised or bummed if all parents aren't looking for what you're offering. Everyone's doing the best they can do - let's give one another a little grace.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Tim,
Two of your statements caught my eye.
>> I use my time for the projects cub scouts must be together on.
Why do the scouts have to be together on these projects? From the examples you gave, it's not clear to me why the boy who had missed a week couldn't be building his birdhouse the same night the other boys were painting theirs. To put it another way, who benefits from the requirement that the boys do these projects in lockstep?
The boys whose parents are indifferent or even hostile to scouting, or who just don't have enough time in the day (lot of single parents out there these days), may be the very ones who most need a relationship with a supportive adult. I'm sure you set up your program with the best intentions in the world, but the law of unintended consequences has a way of circling around and biting us in the @$$. (Can you say 'vapor barrier'?) However good your intentions, if the effect of the program is to exclude those boys, maybe there's a problem with the program. The up side of this is it's something you can control. You can't fix the parents, but you can fix program.
I'm sensitive to the problem of holding the front runners back while the others catch up. It seems like I spent most of my time in school waiting for my classmates. The only thing I can suggest is looking for ways to put the advanced boys to work helping the others. It's never too soon for a boy to have the experience of making a real difference another person's life. My experience is that we learn to love much more by serving than by being served.
>> I want the book finished by the end of the year.
I can't argue with the goal, wouldn't want to. But in the end, the book is not important. The boy is important. If it comes to a conflict between the book and the boy, the book has to give way.
Some of the accomplishments need to be done at home because they are usually in my call a personal thing. Their beliefs in God for one . I remember a personal list of chores the family agreed on. Any thing that can be done at home with parent. I cant do it all. Remember this is the parents job clearly out linned in the book. The parent is set up in cub scouts as the teacher. The parent signs off on every chapter. I guess what some of you dont understand is that cubscouts is a promise between parent and scout . I see that many of you want me to do it all. Thats not the intention , just like the teacher at school cant do it all when they are at a young age. Have yall forgotten?
Lets take my time for example now . I ripped scrap for the kites , went to walmart to buy the material, went to the hardware store to buy the string in which I had ordered .Went to the lumber yard bought treated fencing for the houses, and nails . talked to the manager about donateing the material. I payed for it. Cut all the peices up out of patterns . Cleaned my mess up and ran the scout meeting. Those are the things I use my time to do. The next meeting is the same deal again , different verse. Im on something else the next meeting. I dont have a minute to spare in a meeting . Im like the only cashier at a service station.
The child alone benifits fron finishing the book. Every thing in scouting is in the book .
Tim Mooney
Tim, I once considered adding up all the time and money that being a Scout leader costs. Then I came to my senses. It's nothing to feel bitter about; it's a choice that we've made to feed something in ourselves, to give back to the community, to be a part of something bigger than us -- You pick the reason. But feel good about what you're doing for those kids. Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Actually, I do save many of my receipts. Between the Cubbies and the Girlies, I add about another $450-$600 a year to the Chartiable Donations line on my 1040.
Every little bit helps...
If doing all the prep yourself is too much (and I can see why it would be), why not delegate projects/purchasing/preparation to different parents? It won't be done exactly the way you would have done it, but it will be done just fine. And some parents who can't attend every meeting will be glad to help in other ways.
"A completed home is a listed home."
I guess I have got an idea I will pursue . I will bring in another leader. He will run a standard class, and I will run the advanced class . He will be with his boys where ever they are , even if they dont earn merits , they will still be be in boy scouts . I wont jepardise the six I have that like to eat it up, along with their wonderful parents . I see no other way than split them up. No one is giving any credit here for the boys and parents that want an education . They are the ones Ive depended on and they also depend on me . That way all the boys can be involved and maybe feel better about them selves. Another thing that hasnt been mentioned in response is what the six are getting out of the whole deal. They will go on to be leaders in our world. That is the idea behind scouts. Self starters who are trained to handle what ever comes their way. Im proud of all six beyond words.
Tim Mooney
Update. I went to our committee meeting tonight. I waited till after the meeting was about to adjourn. I asked this question that we have been discussing. Answer was as following from scout master and every one chimed in agreement.
" We look for leaders that will teach the kids . We are often lacking giving the scouts enough . As long as the kids in the meeting can keep up, and grasp the information its not too fast . There is a lot of ground to cover in a year. We are no different than a ball team that would not play a child if he didn't try, or didn't show up for practice. This is how our world works , best they learn that now. Under any circumstances do we go backwards for a child. Its the parents responsibility to catch their child up. If you waited for the slowest we would not have interest from the other scouts. I don't think we would be here tonight discussing this "
I will go on to do what the scout master said , even though I hate to leave some kids behind. I wondered if you knew ; a scout that finishes all training becomes an eagle scout which is highly recognized in any business organization. Also the military . Its known as a standard of excellence !
Tim Mooney