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Man those stairs gots to be expensive with all the labor that goes into them, from mocking up the walls, the laminating, glue up etc..
How much spring back will that have once you release the clamps if any at all?
CAG: I have a little springback..not much...but it is already built into the jigs clamped on the treads. I am happy if the rail stays within a 1/4 inch of the planned centerline.
Edited 3/10/2003 9:42:03 PM ET by Stan Foster
Stan, you should be doing an article for the magazine. More people need to be exposed to what goes into a nice job. Not so much a how to article as something to elicit respect for the craftsman and the pricess.
So many customers see and use something like this and their only reaction is, "yes, that's nice" without being filled with an appropriate amoujnt of awe. I had two places where the owners were on site (that's where I do most of my work) when I was doing a curved layup. They were wowed with the magic of it all and never quit bragging about me to their friends, even though many of the other stunts I pull are even scarieer to me to do.
I know - we'll never have the respect we deserve but it never hurts to try. Expose them..
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Piffin:
If there is one thing I have learned that has given me the most success...is to have the customers come to my shop and "educate" them ...just a little...about what goes on in the building of their staircase. Their lips dont stop flapping and this generates a lot of word of mouth talk that results in future sales.
I never have to advertise...I dont know what I would do if I did.
Stan
As always its good to see your work in progress.
Keep it coming.
Doug
Stan, I want to see a picture of your clamp rack when none are in use.
Then I want a map of how to get to your shop.......................
Joe H
A man with pipe clamps is good to know. Nice work.
Stan,
Either you had several extra pairs of hands or you used a glue with a long open time. Which is it ? Or is it both? I like your setup with the "legs" fastened to the treads. Nice job.
Mark
professor: I usually have someone such as my wife glue the rails up...but actually I did this rail solo yesterday. I have about 45 minutes and I did struggle with the laminates on this one...but FINALLY got them to behave..
Stan,
What did you use to give you 45 minutes, sure couldn't get that long with titebond.
Mark
Mark: It was titebond....but I dont have my glue up room very warm to buy me time. In the summer I have to work faster..but usually can get one all clamped up in 30 minutes even with a lot of trouble.
Stan, I was going to ask you and Armin what you recommend to glue up a rail like that. I'm getting ready to try my first one in the next month or so. I've been following your (incredible) work for a while so I think I'm at least "mentally" prepared! You and Armin mentioned products last year but I've lost my notes.
You mentioned titebond but is there more specific info? I don't know if htere are different types of titebond. Also, where might I find it? Thanks and keep posting!!!
Roger
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf
Stan, I hope you don't come up here with you gyrocopter and strafe my shop for injecting my two cents into your thread.
Rodger, I use Unibond-800, a powder catalyzed resin glue available from Vacuum Pressing Systems. Longer open time and hard rigid glue line and no cold creep. I never had good luck with titebond for stressed laminations but thats just my opinion.
Armin,
Where do you buy the unibond? Or maybe I should ask who manufactures it?You did mention Vacuum pressing systems, if they are your vendor do you have an address/ phone number for them? Thanks.
Mark
Edited 3/12/2003 10:33:52 PM ET by the professor
Professor,
This site will get you a wealth of info as well as the glue.
http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htm
Armin,
Thanks, I stuck it in my "favorites" file so I can find it again. Looks like a nice site. I have a vacuum press on the wishlist and hope to aquire one in the next couple of months.
Mark
Armin, thanks a lot for the tip and the web site!
Roger
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf
Armin: I intend on trying unibond. I have had no problems at all with titebond. However...Titebond 11 does set too fast. I do have to overcorrect just a little for springback.
Stan...Titebond makes Extend which they claim resists creep better and has a longer open time. It has a self life about it that isn't on the container. Seems to work.
Edited 3/15/2003 10:17:33 PM ET by arcwood
Arcwodd: Thanks...I have heard about Extend..but I havent really pursued trying any other glue...because I just have never had any problems with titebond.
Stan,
because I just have never had any problems with titebond.
For the benefit of the newbees I'll add my two cents at this point. I used to use titebond for laminating curved railings. Built about ten sets of stairs and then one day I glued up a handrail. After two days drying time I was ready to shape the profile. The router bit snagged a section of cross grain and pealed a piece off about 6 inches long. I couldn't believe it, next I worked a screwdriver into another ply and was able to peal a foot off like pealing a banana. It wasn't a total failure but enough of it came off to make me a tad uncomfortable. I called Franklin glue company and talked to the lead chemist. The first thing he said was titebond should not be used for stressed laminations and titebond 11 is an even worse choice. When I told him I had been using it for ten years and nothing like this ever happened before his comment was, Our test show that it has a 10% failure rate in high stress applications. Congratulations you just hit the not so lucky 10%. I talked with the chemist for the better part of an hour. Besides learning that titebond was a poor strength choice for what I was doing I also found out that the little telltale bump or ridge you feel at the glue joint will not occur with a resin catalyzed glue. I switched to Unibond 800 and not only have I never had a problem with cold creep but the quality of the glue joint is far better.
Whenever I do a handrail lamination I save the cutoff section, date it along with the customers name. The titebond sections all show the telltale glue bump over time. To some people it doesn't matter, and granted some clients don't know the difference. Some of my railings take the better part of a month to do, I like to think that 10 years down the road they will still feel smooth to the touch.
You really need to give this some thought. Titebond has a high water content, causing the fibers to swell, if you have a lamination 3/16 thick and coat both sides with the glue let it sit for a hour and put a moisture meter on it you will find the MC can go as high as 15%, take this times 10 or 15 plys and you have the composition of green lumber. This water has to go somewhere. On the plus side laminations coated with titebond will bend into a tighter radius simply because the wood fibers are more elastic. With unibond 800 the plys have to be thinner since no water is injected into the wood. I still use titebond for laminating narrow curved trim, as in the cove mold under the treads, the stress is not a factor and most people don't fondle the trim like they do the handrail, so the glue bump is not a consideration either.
Like everything else there is a learning curve to switching glue types, different clamping methods, longer dry time and temperature are a few things to consider. Titebond is the everything, every mans glue and in most cases it works ok, but it is not the industry first choice for laminations.
My purpose here is not to criticized how anyone does their work, but merely to point out that I have done the same with not so good results, besides I would like to think that after 35 years of building stairs I learned something of value, and would like to pass some of that info along, maybe help somebody avoid learning everything the hard way like I did.
Armin: Seriously..I take your advice well...ok? Maybe I have been lucky..I dont know. I just havent had any problems. I do always leave my rail glued up for a couple of days before releasing it. I will probably get around to trying some of that unibond soon.
Aw heck!
Just when I thought I could count on Tightbond for everything. Unibond? Is there a manufacturer or a big box that sells it? Nothing worse than being 3 ozs short on a sunday and no place to find glue. Shelf life?Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Shelf life, it depends (what else is new) I buy mine in 5 gal. pails, transfer to smaller jugs and store what I don't need in the crawl space. The first pail I used lasted a year and was still good. It comes in gallon jugs and the 5 pail thing. Catalyst comes in three colors, light brown, dark brown and a blond version. Match the closest color to your wood, in most cases the glue line will be zip.
Helpful tidbits:
Mix the stuff carefully, I weigh the resin and catalyst on a gram scale. 10(resin) to 1 (cat) ratio works best for me, Gives about 45 minutes open time at 70 degrees room temp and sets in 4 hours. You can decrease the catalyst for longer open time but then the drying time is extended as well. The opposite applies (to a point) read the instructions and don't just wing it, makes a big difference.
The catalyst is a fine powder, mix slowly to avoid getting the stuff airborne. I mix mine in front of the dust collector to extract any dust that might escape. After mixing let sit for 5 to 10 minutes, this will dissolve any lumps, it should spread very smoothly.
My handrails take a lot of time to glue and clamp so I chill the glue down to 65 degrees and cool off the shop if possible. After the clamps are on I drape a cloth tarp over the rail and hang several electric strip heaters under the rail. I control all three heaters with a thermostat towards the top of the tarp tent, crank that baby up to 90 and let her cook for two hours. Depending on how tight the rail is I may leave the clamps on for twice the allotted time. However I turn the heat off when the time is up, 90 degrees is two hours. When the glue bead is rock hard it's done, it sands like a dream. If my laminations are done in a vacuum bag I pour a little bit on a board and set on top of the bag, when the sample is hard I know the piece in the bag is finished as well.
How much do you need to mix: I use a short nap roller to apply, Both sides of the surface are coated. Everybody is different, the following is my glue slinging formula. Total square inches to be covered divided by 9 gives me the amount in grams of resin needed. This takes a little finesse you can't just gorp the stuff on. It needs to be even coated with just the right amount. If when you apply the clamps the glue squeezes out to the point you flood your ankles it's way to much. Ideally after pressure is applied you should see a small amount bead out of the seam. This is something you have to play with to get right.
Clean up. Warm (not hot) water before it starts to set. Cold water doesn't do much and hot water causes it to set in your hands.
All this sounds like a lot of hassle, so I use the stuff where it's really needed and for everything else use titebond.
Where to get: scroll back a few posts and it should be listed as a web site to "Vacuum Pressing systems" if not let me know. There are other brands that work as well, National Casein makes one that comes to mind. I think they are out of Chicago so you could save the shipping cost if you can find something close to home. For me living out in the middle of nowhere, it has to be shipped in so location of a dealer is moot.
Armin,
It sounds like Epoxide type of material.
I'd be making canoes and Kayak's if I could work with that stuff. For some reason that material (epoxides) showed up on my skin alergy test so I'll probably have to avoid it at least until I read up on that Unibond a bit.
Thanks for the definition. I'll probably have to stay in the childrens section with the Tightbond II.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
You raised a valid concern, the resin or powder catalyst can cause reactions in some cases, I don't know of any personally but the label does say it's a possibility in a very small percentage of users.
The reaction is like poison Ivy. Small bubbles and a relentless itch. Poison Ivy is also one of my alergies so it may or not be related.
Funny, I just stumbled thru life with periodic unease and then with a trip to an allergist to diagnose a cat allergy & get the stuff to let me breath, I got a list of the stuff to avoid. It makes life easier and really cuts down on the kleenex & caladril budget.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Armin do you ever use epoxy?
Epoxy, makes a very thick looking glue line, not attractive at all. I used it early on to minimize the clamp time for handrail fitting joints. On dark stained oak it's not bad but on lighter tones the glue line jumps right out at you.
This Unibond 800, is it strictly for interior applications? Or do you use it for outdoor projects, too?
Jim, I'm not sure what the exterior rating of unibond 800 is. I know it has some water resistance but I wouldn't build a boat with the stuff without checking it out. I use titebond 11 for exterior stuff, did an exterior curved railing for a Victorian home several years ago, since it was going to be painted I used epoxy.
Stan,
A ha! I knew something was up as I have had joints seize up if I let it set for very long without clamping it . I'll have to file that trick away in the old memory bank. Thanks for the reply.
Mark
Stan,
Its always a treat to see your work.
WAHDView Image
Thanks for the pics, Stan. Isn't that handrail a little low?
Thanks for posting that Stan...
Brought back great memories of my boatbuilding days. I remember one glue-up where we used every clamp in the shop (more than 75) then did a matching one again the next day.
thank god for west system....
-Kit