Went to look at some work for a prospective home buyer yesterday. Home is 2 years old, in one of the nicer new subdivisions . Priced at about $220,000.00. Keep in mind the average home sale price here is about 85-90 thousand. Here’s what you get!
Ranch home, about 1800 sf.
Front porch pitched so much, it’s hard to walk on.
Vinyl siding, with vinly single hung windows. Most of these are bowed at the joining rail, so the air just rushes through. Latches don’t engage.
Interior,some corner beads popping.
Pergo type floor through most public areas. Cut short at places under door jambs and base, so there are gaps.
Six panel pine doors. Not one of them plumb, many cross legged. Most don’t latch.
One coat paint job on the doors, no primer. Very rough, like almost cheese grater rough.
Cheap pine trim, lumberyard stock. Nothing fits. Very few nails even holding it on. You can see right through, between walls and casing.
Crown molding on kitchen cabinets. I could make better joints with a chainsaw!!
Basement floor, lots af cracks. Some quite large.
Plenty of drywall cracks in basement load walls. Any footings under there?
Rear deck framed to bare minimun, if that. I’m not sure how it passed inspection. Maybe, it was the dozen or more posts under it.
Had the camera, but didn’t think about posting this at the time.
End result. Buyer is still looking elsewhere. I have a whole new perspective of what some of my competitors are doing. Pathetic!!
Worst part to me is that the realtors are marketing this junk as custom, fairly high end.
Agent asked me, at the end of the showing, what I would offer. My response was about 50,000.00 under listing, and I was being nice. She just laughed. No wonder it’s been on the market for six months already.
Well, now I know what these customers, who tell me they were quoted $75-80/ sf are getting for their money. You get what you pay for!
Sorry for the rant. Good part of the story is: the prospective buyer will be building new in a couple of years, possibly sooner now. Their quality expectations are very high, which leaves them with about 4 builders to chose from. I’m one, and am already in the door.
Brudoggie
Edited 1/16/2005 10:52 am ET by BRUDOGGIE
Replies
So the house you've explained cost $220,000....what'll you get for the $90,000 ones? Suppose the land that house sets on is a good portion of the price.
In low-mid high end subdivisions here,vinyl siding can't be used on the front...am not talking about 'customs'. Mid to upper high ends vinyl is not an option,period.
Framer,
The house is listed at 220, probably cost much less. For 90 or less, you can buy a nice older (20-50 yrs old) home.Currently, the market here is loaded with lower price (50-100 K) homes, and quite a few over 200K. There is no middle. Land is fairly reasonable, but not much left near the towns. The rural school districts here are in an awful financial state, due to State funding issues, and declining enrollment. Our major industries are based in tourism and forest products. The recent economy has had serious effects on both. Lots of downsizing going on. Just last week, the largest employer in the county that I live in, announced a closure of part of their operation. This will put half their workforce out of work. The best values in newer homes are in my county, because people are leaving in mass. Our local school district, where my kids attend, will be bankrupt, before the end of this year. Possibly leading to dissolution, which would send the students, to the surrounding districts. The closest one is an hour bus ride from my home.All this while having one of the highest tax rates in the state of Wisconsin.I guess if someone is willing to pay 220 K for the place, more power to them. It's just sad. People don't seem to know the difference between quality and junk. Atleast they didn't put in some costly finishes done poorly, as seem popular now. As long as there are 6 panel doors, fancy particle board cabinets, and stone counters, it's top dollar. Even if it all is installed poorly.Brudoggie ( continuing my rant, while home with a sick kid)
BRUDOGGIE ,
Scary huh , whats out there in some cases is not worth what it cost to build . If you have some examples of your homes or other projects you have built , by all means ask the homeowner permission to give their phone # to your client.Allow your client to veiw the job and get real feedback from a satisfied customer. I do funiture and cabinets and have done this many times in the last 25 years. I usually let the new client go without me present if that is cool with the homeowner. This way they ask questions about you without putting anyone on the spot. This also gives the client a chance to perhaps see certain design elements or a certain way of doing things that you may have suggested. We have to remember that quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.Some people wouldn't know quality if they saw it.
good luck dusty
Three years ago, I had the distinct displeasure of working on a house just like the one you describe. Lots of interior and exterior fit and trim problems.
But the biggest problem was the roof. The sheathing did not extend to the subfascia (about a 4" gap), there was absolutely no flashing, no felt, and the starter strip was laid with inch-wide gaps between shingles.
As a result, the shingles were simply draped over the void between the sheathing and the fascia. Water was soon dripping into the soffit cavities, but was not immediately apparent, because the soffits were not perfectly level. The water ran towards the house wall, and dripped behind the siding.
And the siding was masonite. So I spent about a month replacing rotted exterior lumber on a house that was (as I was told) about 7 years old.
In addition, there was a door frame that was rotted, and the floor and joists beneath it were soft too.
The work I did was, like yours, due to a buyer-seller agreement. I was not able to finish until well after the closing, so I got to know both the buyer and seller.
That put me in a really awkward position -- I knew that the house was a POS before the sale, but if I told the buyer, I might be liable to the seller. But as a contractor who worked on the newly bought house for the buyer, I had to tell her that she was now in a huge pickle -- at least my own ethics said so.
Since it's been 3 years, I have assumed that I somehow got away without a lawsuit.
Hope you can do the same......
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Something in my mind tells me that price is closer to $120/sq ft
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Brew,
Great rant, I love it. Piffin you are a scream, over here running the numbers.
Doesnt surprise me a bit, production has its benefit if you are willing to put your name on it. It sick how consumers are willing to buy into cheap goods. Many may not know any better. Many builders sleep fine while taking them for a ride.
Good to hear you are another one who feels responsible to their clients, conscience, ethics, and the trade.
-zen
Edited 1/16/2005 5:20 pm ET by zendo
I do punch out for a comm. framing company. It amazes me what is called acceptible. The work defined in the initial post sounds much worse than the units that we do, however, for the cost of the finished product, I myself would expect higher quality
It sick how consumers are willing to buy into cheap goods. Many may not know any better.
And herein lies the problem.....most folks have no idea.
DWs cousin...very well to do, and very easily impressed with pricetags....bought a house a few years back....it was the topic of endless discussion in the months that followed among those that had seen it. With all the talk.....and the million dollar pricetag....actually closer to one and a quarter....I gotta admit I was anxious to see it for myself.
When that chance finally came about...I was absolutely speechless. The property was gorgeous...bout a half acre of flat land. Other than that....ugh. A ranch. Steel entry door.....laminate flooring....stock 2 1/4" colonial casings.....hollow core "six panel" masonite interior doors....Quickset hardware. The cheapest finishes on everything. The builder obviously bought in bulk. The oversized kitchen was white laminate from floor to ceiling.....cabinets, countertops...the works...if it didn`t move, it was laminated! Musta gotten a deal and a half on a terra cotta look ceramic tile.....it flowed from the kitchen, to the family room to the entry hall. Butt ugly...and everywhere.
House couldn`t have cost $100,000 to build. I just smiled politely and feigned aproval. Wow...did DW get an earful on the drive home.
Part of the problem is the big boxes and DIY TV shows. They don`t concern themselves with quality....only how to get it done quickly and inexpensively. That....and too many folks just don`t concern themselves with it. BIL is currently putting an addition on his home. He`s saving the original single panel 1 3/4" oak interior doors for me, because I told him if he tossed them I`d shoot him with his own gun. (He`s a cop) He`s decided to replace them with masonite to match the new ones being added with the addition. I have no idea what I`ll do with them.....but I refuse to let them go.
He liked the cousins house alot!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Hey JAYBIRD ,
I totally agree about the DIY TV shows . I am a furniture / cabinet maker designer by trade and I feel they diminish true craftsmanship to a level that any un skilled person could carry out. I guess that is their job , but it sends the wrong message to many . Mainly it seems on these shows they lack technical advice , perhaps none of the people involved in the production of the shows have the perception of what is right or wrong only , how can a DIY er do this. Why should they pay us the big bucks to do what some cute little gal with a tool belt can do on a Saturday afternoon . My 1 and a 1/2 cents.
dusty
Had a client attempt to talk me into using 1/4" panel board to acheive the look of wainscotting in the dining room of his three quarter of a million dollar home. Said he had seen it done on one of those shows.
I explained that I`d be willing to do it in a basement family room....but recomended against it in his home. I gave him two estimates....one for the panel board the other for actual T&G wainscotting installations. Gave him my own adress, as well as the adress of a previous client who`s basement I had finished about a year prior, using a panelled wainscotte. He looked at the job I did in my powder room and compared it to the basement, and in the end agreed to spend the almost four times extra to achieve the quality finish his home deserved.
They don`t often know the difference....luckily for me, some can be taught.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Please stop exagerrating. My computations come to $ 119.99/SF. :)
we forgot to tak off a couple pennies for the land too though. Sorry fop jumping on it without thinking like that. ;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Priced at about $220,000.00. Keep in mind the average home sale price here is about 85-90 thousand.
Sounds similar to the market here ...
and ... the end result.
just told someone the other day ... "$300K don't buy much these days..."
Houses over $300K are the same crappy quality for slightly nicer cabs and shiney counter tops ... for any real quality ... U gotta go over $500K.
the worst part ... those houses closer to $100K .. same deal just less finishes.
Their $300K house is a $100K with $50K in details ...
everyone get's screwed.
told my wife a long time get that idea of buying a "nice new house" out of your head ... after a coupla years of seeing what friends have bought ... all increasing in cost but not touching an increase in workmanship ... she's convinced.
At least we have a great stock of fantastic older homes ...
Give me something 80 to 100 years old over most anything new any day.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"Give me something 80 to 100 years old over most anything new any day."Same here, same here.
Jeff,
maybe I could pay you to have a talk with my wife??????????
Yesterday we went to look at a house my wife has been interested in for 2 1/2 years.
SHE looked at it at an open house last summer at$219K--------I laughed.
AsKing price has since come down to $189K. ( house built in 1965 BTW)
Miters on door and window casing????? let's just say I do tighter miters on roof sheathing when re-decking hip roofs lol
The list just goes on and on and on.
I told the wife------" the price doesn't faze me-------but even if I got them down to $149K---I wouldn't buy it. you need to understand I would have to POUR 10's of thousands of dollars into the kitchen, ALL of the 2 1/2 baths, the roof, the furnace----the list goes on endlessly"
Plus I hate the style of the house, the position of the house on the lot---everything.
Problem is----wife LOVES the area----about 4 or 5 minutes away from where we live now----but an entire different economic strata. Huge lot located maybe 250 yards from a fairly famous golf course( you see it on TV every year), we are good friends with the prospective neighbors, ---alot of decent reasons to buy the house---but I can't bring myself to do it.
wife is still speaking to me----but let's say she is a bit sullen. LOL
Stephen
Stephen"-wife LOVES the area-"When is the closing?<G>
Sometimes the best buy is a teardown. Find the area you like and look for the worst place in the neighborhood.
"I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."
Starting a job today in a brand new house. every single miter on the door trim has a gap.
the trimmer's saw was obviously off a degree (or maybe he was, yeesh).
the paint guy could have caulked it and nobody would notice unless you were 5" away from it.
i could go on but it's just too sad. over $200k, what a joke.
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
$220 K would get you a building lot around here (central Ct). add to that another 50 K for site work
I was taken back a bit when a friend called last week and told me he wants to build a 3000 sq.ft house and would like to keep it around $750 K
Re: "You get what you pay for!"
If your lucky and knowledgeable you just might get what you pay for.
The rest of the population, the unlucky and unknowledgeable, pretty much get screwed. No worries though a lot of those folks are into the house as an investment and will recoup their poor purchase by foisting it off on the next sucker in a few months.
Used to be, I suppose, that many years ago most families had someone who knew a little something about construction. an uncle or brother who could steer the less informed members away from the dreck.
Not so much any more. I, over the last decades, have seen more 'high end' houses that are akin to what you see when HD had a 'make a bird house' day for the kids.
Of course they hit the hot buttons for sales points. Fireplaces and bathrooms galore. Lots of poorly laid marble and tiles all in different planes. Niches in the drywall and always cathedral and coffered ceilings.
Always the entrance, if you squint in fail to notice details, is impressive. Seen airplane hangers with smaller entrances. They are also big on grand vistas for windows. You might only see the back side of your neighbors garage but it is a Grand view of the neighbors garage. The neighbor should feel honored.
A spa, or two, is about regulation. So is paint grade, caulk everywhere shows that the framers did the trim work, mouldings straight off the HD shelves. Often in plastic.
Typically the bare minimum of electrical installation. Minimum number of circuits and a panel just barely legal. Never mind that the next size up is only $10 more.
This is some interpretation of the term 'custom home' I had previously been happily, perhaps blissfully, unaware of. It is not that the builders can't do better. It is that there, for the builder, is no down side. The customers cannot tell the difference. Poor quality has been foisted upon the general public for so long that the public no longer knows what quality is. They have been numbed and blinded by buzz words and quantity that they no longer see the craftsmanship.
Some time age I had a customer present me with a chandelier to assemble. The parts were poorly made and it didn't look like the picture on the package when assembled. She blamed me for how it turned out because 'it is an imported Italian fixture' as if the Italians could do no wrong. She about hit the ceiling when I told her this unit was discounted for a reason.
Poor Italian quality is no better than lousy Bangladeshi quality. Poor craftsmanship on a trim job shows if the trim is in pine or mahogany. But the name mahogany has the people confusing materials with craftsmanship. So I see high dollar woods butchered and nailed in place without care or taste. Top of the line marble laid by blind, epileptic apes. $300,000 houses that needed to be gutted and remodeled the day they got a CO.
Somewhere, somehow the public has to be informed as to what quality and craftsmanship is. Until the public can tell the difference the flim-flam artists, huxters and house flippers are going to continue to run the market.
My solution for this was to build my own house. My problem is that I know too much. There is no way I could sleep at night in a new house like that.
Among other things I have built, I have redone several old house all the house were 100 years plus.
I would really like a new custom house done right but I don't have the checkbook to cover the $700K cost. So I taking 3 weeks off from my other job and subing out the foundation and in three weeks hope to make it to roof shingles. This will cut the cost to $150K.
I cheated alot from orginal plan. I have settled on going with pre-cut studs, I joist floor systems, warmboard, roof trusses for main house. All for time savings. The house will still be much better than anything you can buy but not completely the way I dreamed it.
I am sure it is not a final destination and I know I will be building a few more is the way I justfied in my mind the short cuts.
Just my two cents.
How is taking three weeks off from your other job and framing the house yourself going to take the cost from $700k down to $150k? Either you work cheap, or builders in your area get one heck of a markup.........
Bob
3 weeks off make to a roof..... 24 days straight with at least 4 people. Windows, doors, siding on the nights and weekends. Then mechanicals and insulation and so on. Call in the drywall. Sub out when I or they get tried or run out of favors. Also, I make furniture, barns and wooden kayaks for a hobby. So the kitchen and bath cabinets are already built and are ready to go once the drywall is done. Then do the trim and etc so more on nights and weekends.This is really a family affair. As a family we have done this many times. I have 4 family members who are taking 3 weeks off of work and life to help me. Not to mention 8 others who claim they will show. Usually, the attendance rate of this group is a little better than 50%. Keep in mind, this has been planned for almost 2 years.So the formula is work two full time jobs (be a complete work-oholic), be very very patient, have a great family, earn your favors with family and friends well in advance, plan...plan....plan and give up nights and weekends for a year, over estimate all materials and time and shop everything you buy.Most people who know me well think I should just do it full time.
Then you get a house for less then $50 per sqft.
The word 'custom' to me, means something different and not a cookie-cutter house. For instance, this house we're doing now has 10'5" walls first floor and 9ft second floor walls. Where-as a standard home would have 9ft and 8ft walls. This thing will have 5"crown inside and crown on cornice outside. 2 brick fireplaces,not little bump-outs with a gas stove shoved in. That's what I think customs are.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Before I read this thread I posted my own about what happened to pride in workmanship. The two responses I've received so far seem to support my interpretation of what you are all saying, money buys quality. And it's not a linear equation!
Without debating the accuracy of that and/or how that reflects on our societal values, from a consumers perspective it is indeed sad. Someone here made the point that the general public needs to get/be educated so that they/we are not impacted by low quality tradespeople, but why should it be up to us (the general public)? Sounds like at least a two way street to me. Anything happening in the home building business to promote quality? And I hate to introduce the "R" word (regulation) but is the home building industry prepared to regulate itself?
Coming out of the business world I understand price point - quality algorithms BUT there is a large difference between that big picture and some of the laziness (= shoddy work) you talk about here. Anyone know if this is a pecularly USA issue?
Coming out of the business world I understand price point - quality algorithms BUT there is a large difference between that big picture and some of the laziness (= shoddy work) you talk about here. Anyone know if this is a pecularly USA issue?
You're off track Limeyzen...the issues of quality aren't about laziness, its a simple fact of economics.
Back when I started in the trades, I hired in and was proud to know that I would be the highest paid worker of my high school friends many of which were UAW auto workers employed by GM, ForD or Chrysler. Thirty years later, the factory guys are commonly making up to 100,000 grand (with overtime) while the hardest working skilled trades workers can look forward to no health benefits, no retirement and spotty hours. All that poor economic reality translates into anger, which manifests itself into poor attitudes.
I have often asked myself why we should go the extra mile to deliver a superior product, when the buyers drive up in luxury cars and buy the houses from the builders in the sub that are discounting price, selling on volume and stripping the prices down to the trades to the lowest possible denominator.
When things go as south as the current culture has dictated, I find it comical that you homebuyers wail about the lack of quality, when there are many, many builders that will sell you top quality products if you are willing to spend the 100 or 200% more for the same square footage. OF course you walk out of those houses and sign on the dotted line with the discounters...
You are comparing Cadddy's with Escorts....When I'm framing houses for quality conscience builders that understand the it costs more to do more, we do more. When I'm framing houses for discounters that thrive on finding the cheapest lumber, cheapest labor and cheapest support systems....well, you get what you paid for, even if the selling price of the house is over 500.000.
Ironically, the most complicated houses that are sold by discounters have the biggest disparity in our carpentry bids vs actual contracts awarded. For instance, three years ago, I bid 49,500 of a rough frame, labor only. The builder laughed at my price and gave it to a carpenter who did it for under 30k. A coupla months later, I was talking to the carpenter as he struggled to finish the house alone. He had layed off all his help because he couldn't pay them anymore. He was talking about leaving the business and leaving the trade altogther. I fully understand why.
The customers are getting a lot more for their dollar than they realize. If a coupla a casings are opened up, they could easily afford to tear them off and pay a new guy to come in and do them right for pennies. They've already saved themselves about 200k by underpaying all the trades, so a mere 50k upgrade after moving in still seems to be good business...if the open casings bother them so much.
And finally, to all, don't confuse "custom homes" with high quality homes. A custom home means that the builders allow the clients to pick and choose floor plans and features....the choices are all still low quality, fast paced construction. If you truly want high quality home, you have to search out the few high end builders in your area and be prepared to spend double or triple the "normal" going rate for "custom" homes.
Blue
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thanks, Blue!
That was the most succinct discussion of how "custom" homes differ from "quality" that I have ever seen.
Someone at JLC said that High Line clients think "quality" is imported marble, 12 foot ceilings, pools, elevators, wine rooms, and summer kitchens and the like...NOT...CDX sheathing, Douglas Fir studs, #12 wiring, Type L copper, really good framing, tight miters, etc.
So very true!
Who here has ever had a client for a new home ever ask about sheathing, fasteners, framing, or quality materials? Not many, I would guess!
The "building business" is really the "selling business"...and that is a fact!
Sorry Gene...didn't mean to direct that at you alone! :-)
Edited 1/19/2005 6:45 pm ET by ikor
We were finishing up the 9 dormers on this house, took around 2 1/2 days, 4 guys. Back in the day they'd be thrown up in half that time always with the quote "don't worry about that, the vinyl siding will cover it".
To my point,the roofers showed up right before it snowed and laid down some "synthetic sheathing" barrier[??].Never seen this stuff before,kinda like a tyvek for roofs. Mr/Mrs Homeowner will never know or care it's there but the builder does.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Hi there! Guess I touched a nerve or three! Since you chose to include me in the (perjorative?) class of "you homebuyers" I can only assume that without havng all the facts on my situation to hand, but based on my post, you have made some understandable assumptions. So, let me set the record straight.
For our two prior homes, both truly custom designed and middle of the range costs, we selected middle of the range bids accompanied by detailed written contracts. BUT frankly, if I have to pay 100 - 200% more to get outlets and switches at a constant height, drywall with seams that don't show bumps prior to paint, foundation square etc etc. then count me out! Like some wise person said, doing it right the first time saves time (and money). Oh! And I don't drive an expensive car (wouldn't even if I had the money), am not building in an up scale SD etc etc!! <grin> We are looking forward to the next (and last) adventure though, having learned by our prior experiences. And I now know enough about housebuilding approaches/standards to be dangerous! Have a great day.
Edited 1/19/2005 11:53 pm ET by LIMEYZEN
BUT frankly, if I have to pay 100 - 200% more to get outlets and switches at a constant height, drywall with seams that don't show bumps prior to paint, foundation square etc etc. then count me out!
Exactly. The last non self-employment I had was running a cabinet shop for an upscale custom builder. They used 2 painting crews, good and better. I knew from the first step into a new house which one the customer had chosen to pay for. Cheaper customers got cheaper work, and paid less.
The last house I did for them, the buyers chose to use factory cabinet doors (on custom carcases) to save some money. After carefully explaining what the cosmetic differences were going to be, and showing them an example, they still had the audacity to complain about mismatched grain in the panels. Wasn't up to the same quality they'd seen in the 2 houses where the customer had chosen to pay for us to make the doors. The factory doors cost 1/2 of what we made in the shop. They wanted a free upgrade and didn't get it.
Limey, I hope your builder explains your options and you choose to pay for what you think should be reasonable quality. Certainly doesn't sound like you will. Good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You may be taking me out of context. I was responding to some comments Blue made to me in his long post. Going rate for mid range stuff around here is $135 a sq ft. My point is that if I have to pay 2X that, as he seemend to suggest, to get what I think are basics done well then things have come to a sad state. See my new thread "After due dilligence what's next?" and you'll see where we're at with the GC. Thanks for the input.
Edited 1/20/2005 9:05 am ET by LIMEYZEN
You may be taking me out of context.
Don't think so. I read what you posted about pride of workmanship. If I can say this as inoffensively as possible, your attitude is not one on which I'd waste much free estimate time.
Those cabinet doors were the exact 2X example that the customer was too cheap to pay for and yet expected the same quality. It's a continuum. Could have been 4X for some really interesting doors. Focusing on sq ft costs, rather than choosing to pay for details you consider important is precisely the problem.
The few builders here who've tried to fit purchasing budgets with better quality, but fewer sq ft, have not fared well in the marketplace. Buyers really do choose.
A friend, professional gardener for one of my furniture clients, chose the most sq ft for the money in the cheapest subdivision. Then complained about quality and didn't appreciate it when I pointed out the error of his ways. Now happily lives in a house that cost easily 2X the sq ft price of his old place. Large difference.
This is a great forum with differing views, eh? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom, don't know how to do the extract thing so will have to depend on (faulty) memory in qouting your response. You said something along the lines that given my attitude (that you deduce from the thread I started) you wouldn't waste time on free estimates for me.
Well, of course that would be your right. However, I like to think that if you met me you would gain an altogether different impression than the one you get, with all of your own filters in place, via my writing. An inherent problem with e-mailing in general is that one can greatly err in trying to make a point. I had hoped to convey that while I am somewhat knowledgeable and empathetic, responses from this site, among other sources, seem to confirm my concerns. Indeed, I now understand better the linkage between volume and speed of building requirements as it reflects on quality. Don't like it but it's a reality. I used to be in manufacturing and we spent beaucoup time and bucks grappling with that very issue with mixed success. I just hadn't thought about it in the context of homebuilding.
As to the diversity of opinions here, I second your sentiment (or were you joking?!). I always learn even if I don't like the message! So, I encourage you to read my thread "After due dilligence what's next?" and give me the benefit of your feedback.
Lime, the "midrange" stuff is actually the lowrange stuff, with more square footage.
$135 per square foot isn't going to be anywhere near enough to get true craftsmen out there busting their butts. You can get some production people and production supplies.
You get what you pay for...figure $270, then see the difference.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
100% more sounds about right if you don't want "wandering" outlet heights.
I've never measured my outlet heights, nor do I care if they wander.
Bumps in the drywall? My drywall isn't perfect. If I wanted a glass finish, I'd have it skimmed or plastered. If a seam showed through to any great degree, I'd have the drywallers fix it before the finish coat of paint.
The foundation doesn't need to be square. I've never had any problem putting a perfectly squared house on an unsquare foundation.
Yep...you sound like your a 100% more kinda guy. If you don't pay that, don't expect perfection.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
And I hate to introduce the "R" word (regulation) but is the home building industry prepared to regulate itself?
We are already subject to regulations, with the building codes, and resulting inspections. But the codes don't cover things like fit, finish, and trim. (Actually, I'm fairly certain that in most states, a house that is a foot out of level could actually pass code, so long as it's structure, wiring, plumbing, and HVAC are compliant.)
This is similar to the automobile industry, which is highly regulated. Even with that level of oversight, some new cars are great, and some are junk. And there is little -- other than common sense -- telling the consumer what to watch for, and what to avoid.
Another issue is the extent to which the codes are enforced by the inspectors. At the most basic level, this is determined by local government (which is, theoretically, a function of the local populace.) If the government put these inspections high on the priority list, and funded them properly, then conformance to the regulations would be good. But governments don't, because the populace does not demand it.
So, the ball is back in the court of the people. If we want strict adherance, then we need to tell our elected officials to hire more inspectors, and more qualified ones at that. And we need to pay for it too.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
we are already subject to regulations, with the building codes, and resulting inspections. But the codes don't cover things like fit, finish, and trim. (Actually, I'm fairly certain that in most states, a house that is a foot out of level could actually pass code, so long as it's structure, wiring, plumbing, and HVAC are compliant.)
Not so Yesmaam.
The codes govern standards of workmanship. They include allowances for out of plumb, out of level and widths of open joints.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
BHACKFORD:
Just curious ... when are you starting this project? You have the land and site work done already?
Hope you take the time to shoot progress photos along the way ... and post 'em here, too. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.
I had a similar plan ... ten years later, however, and the plan is still only a dream. The two-acre lot is still there, as are the twice-a-year tax bills.
-Allen
The site work is done, have the permit, foundation guy is ready to go. It will be his first job of the season.
I am just waiting for it to warm up and to lose the heat charge on concrete. I hope to post pictures as I move along and not just questions.
Remarkably similar to what I started about a year and a half ago. Especially the "working two jobs...one of them the house" and involving family members in all sorts of ways. Ended up at about $50/sq ft. Does have radiant floor heat and some nice custom touches.
BUT...
Things moved right along until we moved in with master bath still bare studs and a minimum of door, window and very little baseboard trim installed. Finishing the master bath has taken 3X what it would have if I had done it before move-in, and I'm still staring at primed sheetrock at floor level (no baseboard yet), and entry-way cabinets are only a dream.
So the old adage about "don't move in before it is finished or you'll never finish it" is certainly true, but I would still do it again, except would have at least had the master bath rocked and taped.
My understanding is the new town I am building in, no CO until completely finished. Yet, as I drive around I see septic tanks hanging out of the ground? Remodelers with gabel walls in an attic without sheating? and so on. I have mentally prepared myself and my family for the worst and if it works out better I will be very very surprised.To me "being done" is a completely judgementally statement. Knowing my Irish luck, this will mean everything 100% complete or NO CO!!!Also, I have built several pole barns and I filed for a permit in this town and that was 8 months ago??? I also threw an architect a couple humdred to photo copy my drawings because the town wanted a stamp. Well got the stamp and.....the architect said it was completely over built when he ran the numbers...but still no permit because there are 5 issues????
Yep, the kind of thing that you go through. I had to get a variance 'cause I'm close to a bluff...250 feet above a stream, and then the bank wanted me to get flood insurance. If that stream ever rises 250 feet more than me will be in deep doodoo.
Quality varies as much as the crew that builds it. If the company that builds your home has strict quality control and the foreman knows what to look for then you can get a nicely built production home for the money. Production does not necessarily mean shoddy. I worked for a production crew that actually built quality homes for a reasonable price. The secret was having foremen with an eye for detail. We took over from ####developer who previously had a hack contractor doing the work. The quality of our work from the prior contractor using the same plans was a sharp contrast. All the little things really add up. Things like door frames that cross sight flat, plumb walls, an extra sill plate, straight or straightened studs, windows installed with even reveals. There are so many details that the average homebuyer just doesn't know where to look. They only discover later when they move in that the doors won't stay closed or the windows look cattywhompus, the towel bars rip out of the drywall the first time someone puts weight on it. Then they notice all the shiners under the eave, the 1x facia peeling open because the scarf missed the tail, the wind blowing under the threshold, the ridge looks like it runs downhill for some reason, and the light switch for the entry is six feet inside the front door.
Quality is in the details. I am with Blue and his assessment. You have to pay for quality but you can also get what you pay for. Sadly, there are too many who just look at how many squares you get for the money. Those buyers are the ones that you can take advantage of if you lack the scruples.