We are building our first new house. It is currently still in design phase, but we should start construction next spring.
I have looked at cabinets in homestores and they seem OK to me – when the higher quality manufacturers are viewed. The quality appears good. The materials and finishing same. The options seem to be extensive.
My builder says that I will notice a significant quality improvement between manufactured cabinets, and custom cabinets made by a dedicated cabinetmaker. My builder says that manufactured cabinets cannot get close to the quality of a cabinetmaker, and … when you consider installation costs for the manufactured cabinets, the pricing is not dramatically off.
What’s your opinion? Where do I look to SEE a difference in quality? Do you think that custom built cabinets will cost about the same amount of money as some of the higher-quality manufactured cabinets? Do you think that the manufactured cabinets are ‘junk’ even if they look good to me?
Thanks, Martin Petersen
Replies
I'm a custom cabinetmaker so you can probably guess what my opinion would be - so I'll limit this to what you should look for. Pre-built boxes are pretty on the face but 3/4" in, the quality drops like a rock. Pretty much everything behind the door or drawer-front is some type of plastic-covered particle board. You need to judge how it will hold up. Drawers are typically stapled together with a 3/16" bottom. Check them out. Good drawers are dovetailed. I use 1/2" ply bottoms. Check out the slides. Euro slides are junk in my opinion. See if they're full extension. Check the hinges. Euro hinges are good but there are cheap imitations. Blum has a lifetime warranty on theirs and they're cheap.
Your buddy is correct. The installation cost for big-box cabinets is quite high. I had a client who needed a kitchen installed pronto - which I was unable to do. I would've charged about $25K to build and install. HD charged $20K for the cabinets and $12K to install.
That said, if you do get custom, there's good and not so good. I don't use any melamine or particle board or mdf - but most custom builders do use melamine. You need to decide if it's for you. Hope this helped
That was excellent feedback terryb. Thank you.
But your last paragraph answered the whole question - you are basically saying that bigbox cabinets are actually MORE expensive than customs, when you consider installation. Unless there is some 'upside' to manufactured cabinets, I would choose the custom ones from a local craftsman ... who would design specifically to my needs and wants.
Can you tell me some other things I need to ask for as I go to bid? Materials and hardware and construction details that you appreciate in particular?
Thanks again, Martin
There's a lot of good suggestions here - and as stated, a lot of it is opinion and personal taste. Unlike Stinger, I don't like melamine and won't use it - but a lot of people like it and I think most custom shops use it. Some things are a tad more toward absolute though. I think solid wood, dovetailed drawers with thick ply bottoms are the only way to go. Drawers take a beating and will fall apart after a while if not joined properly.
Re melamine, the following post is copied from the Woodweb knowledge base forum. It is from a cabinet maker.
From AWI's Quality Standards 7th Edition:
"Particle Board and MDF are the recommended substrates for high pressure decorative laminate and wood veneer work because of their excellent flatness...."
"....Particle Board is used in the broadest applications of architectural woodwork. It is especially well suited as a substrate for high quality veneers and decorative laminates."
I consider the work my company does to be in the high-end market. We work almost exclusively in homes from 2 million to 10 million dollars. Most of these jobs rely heavily on AWI specs. Our use of particleboard ranges from the predominant use of melamine casework, to the substrate used under grain matched veneer doors.
Even when we're asked to provide a veneer interior rather than melamine, you can bet it will be particleboard core. In fact, the idea of using plywood for anything other than subtops is ridiculous.
I can understand someone using the plywood vs. melamine argument as a sales tactic when you have no other way to distinguish your product. Generally, the public falls for this argument. But to actually believe it is naive at best.
Every single one of our high end projects uses particleboard core sheet materials.
The melamine-faced particleboard used in the cabinet interiors I buy is high-density industrial spec, and meets AWI standards. It is used for carcase sides, tops, floors, and shelves. Finished ends of cabs are always veneer plywood. Everything else . . . fronts, drawers, fillers, accents, crowns, etc., are all solid wood.
When joined with confirmat screws and dowels, melamine-faced particleboard carcases are as strong as those made with plywood, and every bit as stable dimensionally, maybe more so.
Yes, melamine panels will fail if they get soaked, but plywood won't come through a soaking as if it were new. Plywood as a material has been in play since the 1940s, and particleboard since the 1950s. Do you have any evidence of AWI spec melamine-faced particleboard products failing simply due to degradation over time?
Are you familiar with the architectural door market? This is the business of furnishing the doors that go into hotels, offices, banks, public buildings, libraries, etc. Not stile and rail doors, but flush doors with wood veneer faces and matching hardwood edgebanding. Doors that get used much more heavily than those in residential housing, and at sizes that exceed those seen in homes. What do you think the cores are made from in these doors? You guessed it. Industrial grade particleboard.
We're not talking about the crap sold in panels and shelfboard sizes at the box stores. We're talking about the stuff the pros use.
The special drilling and fastening of melamine carcases requires drilling gear and fasteners most small custom cab shops don't have, thus their allegiance to plywood, which can be stapled, nailed, or screwed together. Thus also their putdown of melamine . . . they are not using it, and they must sell against it.
Do you know the thickness of the veneer on shopgrade maple or birch plywood, as compared to melamine? Can you compare veneer plywood's puncture and gouge resistance to melamine's?
Again, thanks to everyone for the tips. I am struggling through the terminology but should have it squared away in a few days.
I'm guessing that the melamine solution is no more than what I see at my bigbox store, meaning, the white material laminated over particleboard. So in this case, all of these parts will appear mat white. If I want the material to look like 'wood', it needs to be either solid wood or wood verneer over particleboard or plywood.
I'll take a look at woodweb.
Martin
Melamine is a thick thermofused coating applied to a substrate, typically particleboard, under pressure. It can be white, pink, black, glossy, smooth, matte, or colored to look like maple, pine, or some other wood species.
If I am getting a painted kitchen, I specify white melamine interiors. If the fronts are stained or clearcoated wood, I get the melamine interiors in a maple finish. In my own kitchen, two runs of glass-door cabs are done all in black.
Consumer Reports had an excellent article on this subject in their August, 2004 edition.
I think you would get a pretty good education.
Gene
I agree with you on the melamine and MDF.
Attached is a couple pix of cabinets where the carcass is all melamine. That's the way this particular HO wants it. And if the HO wants it I give it! One is walnut and the other teak. He prefers this for clean up reasons.
I think some people, and I'm not suggesting anybody in particular, will resist using melamine or MDF because they have this idea that its inferior for some reason.
The MDF and melamine at HD or Lowes is not the same animal as that from a good lumber supplier.
I'm not a fan of Shearrs or some of the other places like them but I think its obvious why! It has nothing to do with quality.
Doug
Stinger:
I was going to reply to this post, but thought I'd read all the others first. There was my reply, you'd already written it for me. Thanks, saved me a lot of typin'.
Oh, I forgot to suggest that you check out the cabinetmaking forum at woodweb.com. Read some of the discussion and ask for advice there. Some of the participants are very knowledgeable and good at explanations. Mention that you're not in the trade but just need some advice - this is a site for cabinetmakers and some of them get cranky when infidels jump in. Oh and don't equate spelling ability with cabinetmaking knowledge or you won't read anything there.
I will defer to the expert on what to look for, but I will also tell you that you should not automatically assume box cabinets are "more expensive" than custom. It might be true, or not, depending...
With all due respect, you best try doin'lots of reading (not just here either), and with some speed. Cabinets are expensive, and the more you know the better off you are.
Don K.
I buy my cabinets RTA (ready-to-assemble) from a variety of sources, but if the job is higher-end, and requires a lot of custom touches, I prefer Scherr's Cabinets and Doors, of Minot, ND.
Scherr's has a lot of their customers' installations shown in a many-page gallery at their website, so you should take a look.
If you must have faceframed cabinetry, Scherr's is not the way to go, but if you can go frameless, they can do anything you can imagine.
Carcases are all 3/4" industrial quality high density particleboard melamine faced. You can upgrade to plywood if you want, but it is not as stable as the melamine.
Fronts are all 13/16" hardwood, from a huge selection of species and styles. Their finishes are excellent.
Drawers can be basic doweled melamine, or 5/8 maple, with all dovetailed corners. Hardware and slides can be basic, or the best Blum has to offer. Check out drawers made with the Blum Tandem full extension glides, and Blumotion dampers. These are used on the highest end custom stuff you can get.
If your builder has never done a job with RTA cabs, tell him the assembly time for a typical job with a kitchen, pantry, mudroom, and three baths, will take him two guys one day.
We get our cabs in one shipment, and later when it is close to final finish time, we get all our fronts and drawers. It is white cotton glove time when we are doing the front and drawer installation, and drilling for and installing pulls and knobs.
In my experience, Big box can cost just as much as Custom, and you usually do not get as good a product. That being said, you can go Custom and get a crappy product. The most important thing is to see an example of the prospective contractor's work. Get good references. You would be amazed at how many crappy custom cabinets I see. Educate yourself on options, construction techniques. Also, don't be fooled by a lower bid. You might get a lower bid, but the boxes might be 5/8 melamine whereas the higher bid was 3/4 maple plywood. The more you educate yourself, I can assure you, the happier you will be.
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People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
Thanks alot for all of the excellent advice. I can see that there are no fixed answers on this one. An RTA project can cost as much or more than a custom project. An RTA project might even have good or better quality than a custom project. On the other hand, a custom project may have lower quality than RTA.Go figure. :)I'll do my best to get myself educated!Thanks again,
Martin Petersen
Spec it all out....every last bit....and watch like a hawk when it's installled....
Good manufactured installed by pros beats poor custom hands down
Good manufactured installed by butchers is worse than mediocre custom....etc., etc.
Spec it all out!
First....I gotta say. It may be the locale, but around here, even the top big box cabinets with installation don`t aproach custom cab prices.
I also might suggest semicustom cabinetry. A new home shouldn`t require custom sizing of cabinetry, so the only thing you need is to be able to upgrade some of the particulars mentioned by previous posters.....ply boxes, hardware, etc. Typically works out to a happy medium. A higher quality product without the pricetag of a small specialized outfitter.
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
slobuds
I'm a custom cabinet maker myself so I will probably tell you the same thing that Terry(second post) said.
Make sure your comparing apples to apples. Make a list of everything that you want, compare that same shopping list with the custom builder.
I have built some custom cabs for less money then the factory ones and other times I cant even come close to the factory pricing. It all depends on what you want. That's why its important to be fair in the comparison, all the way down to the smallest of details.
Doug
Besides the big box stores,there are also other cabinet suppliers that deal in, and install stock cabinets. Check out your yellow pages. "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Welcome to BT, first off.
What's your opinion?
Well, the quality of your cabinets will vary with the quality of who builds them. I've seen some very good custom & semi-custom production line cabinets. I've also seen some highly-advertised, very pricey cabs, I wouldn't take for free--but that's me.
Where do I look to SEE a difference in quality?
Now that's a question. Not only that, but individual cabinetmakers will differ on what is quality, too.
So, what may be needed is a slight clarification of your question. Do you want quality that can be seen, or just an overall better quality?
Visible quality gets into the matching of grain & color in the exposed material. Whether or not the interiors are deliberately finished (a whole raft of issues).
Overall quality gets into your definitions more. Would you rather have solid wood, or would a veneer-core ply be ok? That sort of thing.
Do you think that custom built cabinets will cost about the same amount of money as some of the higher-quality manufactured cabinets?
Some can. Some of the high-end advertised manufactured stuff can be more expensive than locally-made custom work, too (and have twice as long a lead time to boot).
Do you think that the manufactured cabinets are 'junk' even if they look good to me?
No, not all of them. But, there can be a bunch of apples & oranges (and apples, oranges, & kumquats) comparisions, too. Shane, the custom cabinetmaker next door to the office makes a really good product. It's largely a commercial-grade frameless, flat-panel product, too. The medium-sized semi-custom shop in town does a much better face-framed job than he does. Is one better than the other? That depends.
I'm a dealer of Manufactured Cabinets. We sell STOCK lines similar to what is found in the home center, as well as CUSTOM Manufactured cabinets similar to Wood-Mode. (http://www.wood-mode.com)
I supply a middle to high-end market of single family custom home builders with cabinet sales that range in price from $4k - $200k (per kitchen, cabinets olny).
I have seen lots of custom locally built jobs as well. IMHO, boxes are boxes. The best are made from plywood, drawers should all be 5/8" dovetailed maple with undermount full extension slides (I prefer Blum Tandem FX). Hinges should be adjustable, though alot of your choice here depends on the overlay that you choose. For example and inset hinge is a lot different than an full-overlay hinge.
Some of the manufactured cabinet finishes are not that great, some are amazing. Likewise with the local custom guy. One thing I like about the manufactured shop is that they are finishing in a factory setting, set-up strictly for finishing. They use the best materials and are applying in a controlled environment. Wood-mode has a very thick build on their finish accomplished by many coats and than is hand waxed.
And then you have warranties. Manufactured cabinets have warranties, and a local company to stand behind them. All of our vendor relationships are 9-18 year relationships.
Do your homework, meet with both and look at samples. I highly reccomend checking out a local cabinet dealer or lumberyard that has an impressive display.
Good luck with your project.
-Summit
OK, my story ...
This entire set of cabinets, including the island, and all of the accessory knife drawers, roll out trays, etc., cost me $12K two years ago. They're all solid plywood construction, no compressed sawdust. They have a finish on them much more durable than many I have seen on custom orders.
Other stock box quotes were in the $15K-$18K range. Custom would have cost me well over $20K. Yes, there are some fillers in the installation. Yes, you have to think twice to install them; they may take more time. Installers like custom because the cab shop did all the head-scratching up front, or should have. But there's no way this kitchen cost anywhere near what custom would have. And yes, they're not only Kraftmaid, they're from Home Depot to boot. There, I said it.
Let me say here I'm an experienced trim carpenter and have installed lots of boxes. I'm proud of my work, just as custom cabinet shops are. But there's a lot of ego involved in homebuilding, no matter what phase. And that's probably OK, because it keeps the quality of the work up. But I'm convinced that a good part of that work is done to please the person doing it, and to keep up with the other guy.
As far as the homeowner, there are a few who have the money to have "the best", whatever that is, and maybe to them paying "the most" is "the best". I'm also convinced that the majority of homeowners would rather have a quality installation of more cost-effective cabinets, and will never in their lives in the house see the detailing and difference a custom job will bring.
This kitchen has gotten its share of compliments. I would do this again.
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
Edited 10/22/2005 12:49 pm by Bruce
I did custom cabinets a few months ago and Custom Cabinet Depot really helped me. The quality of materials is high, but price is reasonable. Installation and delivery are included in the cost of our services. I am sure these cabinets will serve long years in contrast to manufactured cabinets (I had them before). My favorite thing about custom cabinets is that you can choose type of material, color and size which will be perfect for your room.
https://customcabinetdepot.com/