Six weeks ago I was given a referral by my biggest customer (Bill) to his boss (Tim) for some fire damage repair work. When I met Tim at his house something struck me as wrong about the man, he did not feel at all trustworthy. I just felt that this guy was a snake. I contacted a friend of mine at the local bank who knows everybody and he confirmed by saying if I were to work for Tim to make sure that he was not writing the check because he had a bad habit of not doing so and waiting to be taken to court.
At that point I told Tim that I did not have the time to do the job until October (partly true) and would not bid. Bill called me back two weeks ago and begged me to bid. At this point I felt I had to bid because of the business Bill is giving me so I did something dumb in frustration and sent in a high bid.
Normally I would have bid $3000 with 10% down for this 4 day job so I sent a bid for $5000 and asked for 50% down payment. I know this was a jerk move but I figured it would put the issue to bed and I would not hear from Tim again.
Tim called me back last night and said that my price was a bit higher than the other three bids he got and asked if I could cut it a little. I talked about using cheaper primer and paint that might not cover the smoke smell but otherwise my price was my price.
Tim let slip the name of another bidder whom I know. I called this other bidder and talked to him (used to work with him/ drinking buddy) he said he bid right at $3250.
Tim left me a message this morning wanting to know when I can start and that it might take a little for him to come up with the down payment.
If I do this job and only ever get the down payment I am still in the green (barely).
What would you other BT’rs do? Run from this guy some more, or take the down money, hope you get the full payment and call your lawyer and tell him that there might be a fight?
P.S. I do have a very good contract that does hold up in court.
Help!!
Day
Replies
do you have progress payments?
do you have a time limit on how long your price is good for? since he has to take some time to get the $2500?
do you know when in Oct you can start?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
some pessimistic thoughts.your relationship with Bill will likely go down the tubes with your relationship with Tim goes down the tubes.Sounds like Tim will blame Bill for the way you're screwing him (maybe his version) and every time you see Bill you'll think of Tim and the situation there.BTW you familiar with the lien laws in your state?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
You are correct about how this might affect relationships, but also consider the fact that this customer MAY possibly end up screwing ( I emphasize may) our OP, so he probably doesn't give a rat's rear about relationships. What about if our OP gets screwed by the client? Will the OP blame his buddy?
My business advice isn't worth much, but I say walk away. I guess my finally learned ability to appreciate my gut feelings is the best lesson I learned from self employment.Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
"What about if our OP gets screwed by the client? Will the OP blame his buddy?"hopefully not since going in he knows that is likely to happen. the thing is will his buddy get sh!t from this client (who IIRC is his boss) when the OP sues/places lien. so then blames the OP for the problem. The two of them should probably have a good heart to heart since they have a good business relationship from what I gather.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Until you get a check for the down payment that clears, I wouldn't have anything to do with this job! No money, run!
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Edited 7/10/2007 11:16 am ET by Shacko
Yep, no one gets on the schedule until their down payment money is is my bank. By take a little while for the down payment I think he meant a week or two. If I pushed a job and delayed another by a day I have a hole in mid August. There are no progress payments because it is a 4 day job, in on monday morning and out on thursday night maybe friday noon. I can in no way justify progress payments.Bill is a flipper and I billed him $80,000 last year and he has no clue about what my small jobs cost but he knows the rates are higher. With the market down I really need Bill's business for my own to not take a dive for the next year or so. All this is is a candle caught a bathroom wall decoration on fire. Three new sheets of drywall, mud, texture, new 48" laminate countertop, primer and paint walls and ceiling in bath and attached large rec room.I don't think Tim knows I am really high but then again he has a bid for $1750 less from a reputable guy. Heck, I could (I won't though) sub out the whole thing to my friend and we both would still profit if I get on time payment. Maybe the referral holds a lot of weight but who knows.
I don't like to work for people whom I have bad feelings about and this has generally been supported by past experiences. I really don't trust the guy, it feels more and more like if I turn my back on him I will get stabbed. If it does come to that though I have a lawyer and have gone after people in the past (liens, small claims court, lawsuits, collections), though I have not had to do that in a few years. Thanks
Day
I still think that you will be fuzked.If you have to go to court, the only one that wins is the lawyers. Luck......................................
"If I pushed a job and delayed another by a day I have a hole in mid August."you have a bad feeling about this guy and you're considering rushing one job and delaying someone else's job for him?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
"Bill is a flipper and I billed him $80,000 last year ..."
You just answered your own question right there.
I don't care if you do the whole job and don't collect a dime. Five grand is just over 5% of all the work Bill gives you.
Take care of Bill. If you get any money from the other job, good on ya.
Kowboy
How much of the work can you do for the $2,500 down and still make your costs and profit? Let him take all the time he needs to come up with the deposit and then sign the contract.
IF you get the deposit up front and the check clears I'm sure you can structure your contract to stipulate a payment schedule that will get you to the $3,000 you were going to bid. AND, GET THAT AMOUNT BEFORE YOU DO ANY MORE WORK.
You can then finish the job and collect your gravy or take him to court if he doesn't pay.
Breaking the payment schedule into small bites also might get you up to $4,000. You can then let him stiff you for the last $1,000 and let him think he put one over on you.
I'm thinking that as long as the job is unfinished and nasty looking you will get your money. It's when all the dust has cleared and you are out of there he might not feel obligated to pay the final.
I suspect this is the type guy that really revels in screwing people. He probably took your bid since you were highest, so in his mind, he's getting over on somebody more than if he'd taken a lower price.
Tell him you'll schedule him as soon as you get your deposit and a signed contract. If he dwaddles, he looses his spot in the schedule.
Good luck.
http://grantlogan.net/
Sometimes, when I lie in bed at night and look up at the stars, I think to myself, "Man! I really need to fix that roof."
Go with your "gut". I learned long ago that "instinct" is your brain telling you what you should do. All the data you need to make the decision is in your head and you are able to clearly write it so ............... Always GO WITH YOUR INSTINCT! Instinct is what has allowed man to survive for a bazillion years....!!!!
RUN
Your contract might hold up in court, but the total cost of your job, even at $5000, is not worth taking to court.
If this guy has been sued for non-payment, or there have been liens on the property, I would get a legal search done and present him with the "evidence". If he wants to pay 100% up front you are happy to do it, but given the circumstances you can't risk working for free.
And why the hell is Bill begging you anyway??
I think this will solve itself. My guess is he never comes up with the down payment.
Dude, the work you describe sounds like about 4 days--for ONE person... How much of the $5k is your labor?
"How much of the $5k is your labor?"Dude,
did you miss the part where this potential client has a history of non-payment? it's called risk money.edit: and it doesn't matter how much of it is labor, what you think his labor is worth and what he charges doesn't matter, it's what he charges for the job and his clients accept that is important. and this potential client has accepted his pricebobl Volo, non valeoBaloney detecter WFR"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Edited 7/10/2007 2:10 pm ET by bobl
re: your tag line...that's "kibbitzer", not "kibbutzer"' which would refer to somebody who lives on a kibbutz...
that's a quote, and I don't want to get sued for misquoting.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Ok, you're 24 hour grace period is up.
Watcha gonna do?
I found out today that he does in fact already have a lien on the house for some $10,000 to a dock company. Looks like my gut was correct. What a d!ck.
Further I had a bid out for an addition that is going to take a month that came back today(I was surprised, didn't think I had won that one) with a small deposit so schedule is out till Nov. I called Tim and explained that since I was now scheduled out through November, he should call someone else. That hole I had in August has been kindly filled by an invitation to go hike up Mt. Yale in CO with my brother.
I passed along my thoughts to one of the other bidders and the banker.
I am also thinking about telling Bill (referrer) my thoughts about the guy in a diplomatic fashion so he (Tim) won't call me again. I like a good fight once in a while but I prefer it be with a fish and not a snake.
I will keep you updated if I hear more about what poor smuck takes the job.Looks like good things do come to those who wait.
-DayAnother day and another dollar gone.
now if you wuz mean you would call up a contractor that has messed with you in the past and tell him you got a good job for him;)
that will come back to haunt you in spades..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yes it will
wqon't even help to pass the buck with that...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Good Choice on passing. Something I didn't see in any of the post is a clause in my contracts that in effect says if I have to chase you in court you pay for attorney fees & my time involved. Talk to your attorney. MY Contract structure came from mine & is worth every penny of the $250.00 it cost for the lisence to use it.
I bet that's a load off your shoulders! Glad you found out before hand.
Intuition pays off!My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
Your contract can say whatever you want, doesn't mean a damn thing when you are asking a judge to fix your problem. Everyone I know in the building business has attorney fees in their contract, in 30 years never heard of any of them getting them either.
I have. Either you need a better attorney, a good one to write the basic contract or both. I Havne't always got it, it can be negotiated out when push comes to shove. It also makes a big hammer to hold over their head. Using it right now. I will get my money.
That is kind of what I am saying, I am a one man band though I would sub out the drywall mud and texture cause I hate doing that. At $2500 (the down payment) I would be some what profitable if there were no problems though it would cut into my projected hourly rate a bit. If I take the down and do the job and never see another dime I am still in the green. At $5000 about $2500 would be labor (profit at that point cause overhead is covered).
My thought process was that I wanted to bid so high and the terms so out of whack that my bid would go in the trash and not get a second thought. It looks like I shot myself in the face.
My problem is I don't like people getting something over on me or even feeling like they did. I am generally on the up and up (this case notwithstanding) and I expect others to do the same. That is my reputation and I protect it.
I won't blame Bill (the referrer) if the job goes south and I don't think Bill will blame me because we have a long history and he knows how I work. I think he asked me to bid because his boss Tim was bugging him at the office.
The hole in my schedule is an actual hole of 3 days between jobs. After that I am booked through Oct. 1. If it were any other customer I would make the hole a day bigger and take the job as opposed going fishing. I might just tell him to wait until Oct and see if he sticks around which he does not strike me as a guy who will.
So my problem is that the job is so potentially profitable it is hard to shy away from.
I will check on liens and a few other things here and then sleep on it.
And yes I realize that this entire response is just a rationalization of thinking about the job and trying to get a push in the other direction.
Potentially there is a ten pound fish in that fishin' hole you mentioned.So, are you inviting a crowd over for a ten pound fish dinner?SamT
Seems to me everyone is looking at this wrong: You wait for the down-payment, of course. Then you hire the guy that bid $3250(?), give him the job for $3500, with a $2000 down-payment, and the rest contingent on your getting paid from the customer.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan you da Man or hire one of the low bidders;)
Why is your buddy begging you to quote the job if Tim already has other quotes in hand?
So, you can get screwed at your normal rate of $3k or your higher rate of $5k - either way you're planning on getting screwed. Doesn't make much sense to me to deal with someone you know is a dirtball - and was a confirmed dirtball by the banker.
Can you get 50% to put the job on your schedule and then the 50% balance due the morning you start (before taking the tools out of your truck)? I would buy and unload the materials and then wait for a check before picking up a hammer.
Good luck. I'd walk. -Norm
Why is your buddy begging you to quote the job if Tim already has other quotes in hand?
I wonder about this too, especially since your price was so much higher. Maybe you should ask.
If it's only about money, I'd say do the job because of the relationship to your client Bill. Get the $2,500, do the work and if everything seems cool then bill the guy $400-$500 less than your quote, tell him it didn't cost as much as you expected. Maybe he'll think you're a great guy and just cut you a check.
If you think you might get into some kind of hassle about the work itself........well that's a different story.
Ed
Why is your buddy begging you to quote the job if Tim already has other quotes in hand?
I would assume ( and you know what that really means) that Bill has a lot of trust in his chosen contractor. He may or may not know if the other guy is reputable or not.
I have a client that allways says "Thats a little higher than I thought" but he uses me anyway because he knows it will be done right and if there's a problem it will be fixed very quickly.
I think you're playing it right. Don't move an inch before you get the 50% down payment, and make sure to have him sign a solid contract that outlines when you expect to be paid in full, and the interest that will be accrued if this doesn't happen within your time frame.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
From what i read you will be SOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Do the job (after the down payment of course). If he doesnt pay you the rest then at least you will have fullfilled your obligations in the eyes of your good clients. IMO, this just reinforces to them that your an upstanding guy and will do what you say.
Also, you shouldnt necessarily believe all that you hear. Its probably true, but maybe not.
Why would someone take the highest bid, when he has other reputable bids? Sounds fishy to me. I would go with my gut instinct and NOT do the job. Life has too many headaches, why give yourself another one?My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
Simp[ly put, don't do the job. I learned long ago to go with my gut feelings.
the upside is a potential extra $2000 or so...
the downside is two years in the court system chasing the guy
no matter what, once you take his deposit and sign the contract , you are committed..
do you want to be committed to this ?
risk = reward
does the reward ( $2000 +/- ) equal the risk ? Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with Mike. this is an awfully small job to be dealing with a less than honorable guy. "I still smell smoke" and when the paid experts show up in court against you, the roof needs removed, the floors need replaced, the walls need rebuilt............................................Never believe your contract always wins because all it takes is someone to testify against your work. I know, I lost 21.000.00 today.
Edited 7/10/2007 9:41 pm ET by shellbuilder
yikes !......
sounds like a good lead-in for one of Paul Harvey's " the rest of the story "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can give you a few excerpts...the wife who was hitting on the contractor, the husband who was drunk , the master bath that was gutted 14 years ago and left, the overhangs that were supposed to be different on two roofs because that would have been better...forget the fact the entire house is a continuous one level eave 14" past brick, the accusations from the drunk, the 18 year old daughter screwing a guy in the pool in front of me......sorry to hijack this thread
Forget the bathroom job...this sounds like an interesting story!! hahaJustin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
Please hijack. Sounds like an interesting read. :-)Do the job and see what happens. For the chance at a 2000 kicker you can do plenty of fishing.
My bet is that the guy won't take the bid anyway and is just dogging you.
Turn that story into a script. I know a guy in hollywood. That baby will sell it's self!
Kudos Mr. Smith. You always put it just right.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Tell this story to your lawyer and have him/her "tweak" the contract as necessary to CYA even more. I'm thinking that a substantial deposit, weekly progress payments, significant penalties for late or non-payment, and a clearly stated right to stop the job unless payments aren't kept up to date should give you plenty of cover.
If Tim squawks, tell him you always approach a new customer with extreme caution.
Remember that a contract is just a legally binding document wherein all parties get to specify why they distrust each other. Tim's reputation calls for special measures.
I think everyone is making a big deal over nothing.
You willingly bid $5k when $3k was what you would need to do the job profitably. Now the guy wants you to do the work and you're thinking of pulling out because of what you *think* may happen?
First off, I would feel bad refusing a bid that I voluntarily submitted.
Secondly, with a down payment of $2,500 the worst you could lose on this job, assuming you estimated correctly, is $500. On the flip side, you could stand to gain an extra $2k in net profit. To me this seems like a worthwhile risk. Maybe the guy hasn't paid in the past when he should have, but maybe he hasn't paid contractors who weren't really finished.
I would do a quick search to see if he has any liens against the home. If not, then I would assume that most of the other workers had been paid. Or ask your buddy at the bank if you can get solid information on his non-payment habits, not hearsay. If your bid has the payment schedule locked down, then stick with it and cross your fingers. If not, then add a $500-750 "Commencement of Work" payment and you should be in the clear.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Oh, one more thing.I think it's funny that when we have a discussion about pricing everyone shouts that you can't worry about what your competition is charging and that you have to provide a high level of service and charge accordingly.But now that a guy wants to pay you higher than the "market" rate, the guy is suddenly a crook just waiting to take the sucker contractor who made the mistake of signing on the dotted line.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm kinda hoping he gets the job so we can see how it plays out.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
What'd you do- get Duane a new work truck?
Here is what you do.
Call this guy back and tell him that since he is a good friend of your customer, you'll do him this huge favor. You'll cut your price to $3500 if he can pay for the whole project in advance.
He gets a "deal" for early pay and you are covered completely.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
if you've made a commitment in ink, then make him do the same. If not, then back out.
A GC friend of mine who I do a lot of work for know within the first 15 minutes if the customer is not suited to him at which point he becomes very politely up front with them, and tells them so. You gotta go with your gut so many times, and this has red flags all over it.
If you are doing this, get absolutely everything in writing with his signature on it. Give him a copy and you have one.