I had a potential client effectively use me to get quotes and a better bank loan and now has terminated corespondance with me. This was for a project where he was buying a house that needed a new basement. I’d excavate and replace the basement and the associated drainage system etc. I even had to send quotes to his bank where he was getting his loan with a structure of payments.
Now that all has been approved for the sale and loan, I can’t get him to return my email or calls. It seems as though he used my services under the guise of my doing this project but perhaps really never intended to hire me at all.
In short, I spent a lot of my time for free to help him.
I thought I had heard of something along the lines of a contractor’s right to charge a customer that knowingly uses such services without the intent to go ahead with the work.
I’d like to bill this guy for my time.
I’ve had little luck in searching the web for anything related to such rights or legal precendence.
Replies
U wanna wait for Mike or tell U what Uncle Smithy is gonna say ...
"charge for estimates".
not that I do ... but I pretty much made my mind up.
I've given myself the excuse that so far ... since I decided I was gonna charge ...
I haven't given a bid that's taken more than an hour to work up.
current job was 99.99 guaranteed to go thru ...
last coupla were sub jobs ... one before that was a quick guess ...
gave a real high ball park , waited for their commitment then sat down and figured it all out for real ...
and the next 3 in line ... sub for Hub ...
daily for Dante ...
and a near freebie for family.
but sooner or later dammit ...
I'm charging!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Tongue in cheek, but send the bank a notice that there was an error on the previous correspondence and that there is a clay lens just under the basement?
a clay lens??
http://www.petedraganic.com/
pete... this one was made in heaven for you to charge for preparing a Proposal
even if the guy didn't use & abuse you... you were providing a service to him... all the documentation he needed to get his loan..that was
separate
from the work you were going to do.
well... he got his and you got bupkis.....
time to move on..
next time ......... CHARGE FOR THE PROPOSAL
Yeah, I'll probably send him a bill in the mail... just to cheer him up. But aside from that I highly doubt I'd spend much time to pursue it. I've lot better ways to spend my time.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
i know what u mean..... like posting here on BTMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I like the idea of sending him a bill for the services performed. Even if he ignores it, you score the moral points and feel better. Plus, you can show him as delinquent in your books, and never work for him again. If nothing else, you get to write off a bad debt, save a buck or two in taxes.
I like that idea but I think I would send a letter to the bank as well clarifying that any and all paperwork or cost numbers that have your name tied to them are now null and void since he has not chosen you as the contractor of record for the project.
Sure, that doesn't mean much legally but banks dislike any kind of disclaimer letter that exempts someone professional from something they lent money on. I bet they would contact the homeowner and ask what gives and then it might get you paid "something"?
I wouldn't go that far, because there was no written contract to hire Pete as the Contractor, so there wasn't any 'contractor of record' in the first place. You might just set yourself up for a nasty mess if you involve a third party.
Yes, but if my name or company name was on any paperwork the guy gave to the bank, I would want the bank to know I was not involved in the project in any way shape or form other than providing an estimate which was not accepted. If you don't disclaim yourself and something happens with that project either financially or legally, someone will pin it on your somehow.
I work in Floirda, the CYA state. ;)
Plus, it helps make the freeloaders life a little difficult should the bank question him about it.
What you are talking about goes WAY beyond CYA. It is aggressive.The line to ross or not is set in the original relationships. If the potential customer who used Pete had at some point asked Pete to copy the bank with cthe estimates and correspondence, then he would be right and possibly even have a duty to follow through with subsequent addendums making notification of updates and changes.
But if pete provided his estimates solely and directly to the client, then his relationship is solely and diretly with him. For Pete to step outside of tht boundary and unilateraly bring the bank into this could call down trouble.However, in a small town, there are ways to make sure certain things are known by certain people.
;)
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I had to contact the bank directly, per the customer's request and fill out their paperwork for the loan and payment arrangements for the project (assuming the funds were added to the home-buying loan).
I know that this can and will likely continue to happen to me. Part of the job.
I just thought it would be fun to send him a bill... make him sweat it a little.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Me, I would play sweet and innocent , call the bank, talk directly to the clients loan officer and explain that your worried if the paperwork you filled out for the job legally ties you to the borrower or the job. Explain you have found out he isn't going to hire you now. Explain that you have done estimates before but never one that included the banks forms etc. and you just don't understand the legal implications if any . All the while just mentioning you only want to know for your own peace of mind as you have never gone through anything like this before. No throwing stones, acting upset, just voicing your concerns about your status. Here there is a local S&L that won't loan to Owner/builders, loans only go to those using a GC... could be this client was in the same boat and is not only screwing you but playing with the lender as well.
Edited 4/3/2007 10:24 pm by dovetail97128
Exactly what I was thinking.In those shoes I would be contacting the loan officer who handled the loan for the guy, and finding out if there is any possibility of any legal implication against me... now or in the future... since I am not going to do the job.Gets all the cards on the table, with the loan officer learning what he needs to know as well... Without getting in anyone's face. Or setting yourself up for legal action because you "interfered with a contract" as one of the lawyers stated earlier in this thread.I don't think this is something that should just be left alone and walked away from, because there IS a possibility of ramifications for Pete... IF the guy has put Pete down as his GC, (Or any other legal involvement with the design, or building, etc.), with the bank.Since that p[ossibility is there, and Pete doesn't know, I think it behooves him to find out.
A priest once said, "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint -- when I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist" ~IanDG '03
"I would be contacting the loan officer who handled the loan for the guy, and finding out if there is any possibility of any legal implication against me."U don't find legal advice by asking a bank officer. They are just salesmen and clerks.U nneed a lawyer for legal advice
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Piffen,
So maybe he should call the banks laywer? It seems reasonable to think that the loan officer would be able to answer a simple question about whether their is any legally binding issues from the banks point of view about pete's filling out the loan application submittals.
Not to be a cynic here, just speaking from experience: do you really want to trust the bank's lawyer?????This would be a good time, in terms of the OP's current situation and how he works in general, to spend a few bucks with a local lawyer who knows something about construction law. I wouldn't make a move now without getting my own lawyer's advice about what to do and why. And how to handle things moving forward.Hate, hate to say it but lawyers have saved me from some BIG mistakes in the past. There's always so much more going on than we outsiders can imagine. I've even had them give me the right wording to put in a letter.
bjAtlanta, That would also be good. I was trying to offer a way to make the bank aware that the job wasn't being done by the OP, and to accomplish that in a manner that didn't raise anyones hackles .
Gotcha. Short of going to a lawyer, the only thing I'd do would be send a letter (one by regular mail and one by certified mail, with a return receipt) to the bank loan officer. Say: just wanted to let you know the HO did not hire me to do the job and I have no involvement in it; let me know if you need anything further from me. (Just state the facts; only the facts. No commentary, no questions about your legal status.)If bank gets back to you with any other questions, call a lawyer.Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV.
I play a defense attty at home.
My DGF is the persecuting atty, the judge, the jury, AND the Supreme Court.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
SamT, Let me guess...
You don't win many cases ?
;-)
True.I should have worded that differently.The point was that Pete should find out if the bank happens to have him in their paperwork as having any responsibilities anywhere along the line.Once he is sure of what is actually going on, then he can make his own decisions regarding legal help or whatever...
A priest once said, "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint -- when I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist" ~IanDG '03
Well then, HE brought you into the loop so you might have a roight to further "update" the information provided. Make sure he gets a ccopy too.myself - I don't know if I'd feel like playing that game.. I just make sure they know from the beginning they are paying me for estimating and designing. If they opt out, I know I am only losing a loookielou who will USE the next guy who hasn't learned yet
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your posts have gone from a little hard to read to sometimes almost impossible to comprehend. PLEASE proofread them before you send them.
You dont get 35,000 + posts by stoping to proofread!
Doug
whale then, sincce my knowledge is important to share with the whole world and not just those who have sent in their quarters and dimes for the secrete decoder rings...believe it or not, I have gotten better in the past several months
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Put a lein on the house and let's see him fight it. Won't that be fun?
"Put a lein on the house and let's see him fight it. Won't that be fun?"Without consulting a local attorney I would not recommned that.Because of people abusing abusing lien laws some states have strong penalties against misuing them.And he does not have any kind of contract, even verbal, that he would be used or paid for an estimate.And the he does not even own the home at this time (based on Petes wording)..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 4/3/2007 12:02 am by BillHartmann
Yeah you're right....But it was a fun thought.
I'm as guilty as the next guy, but it's odd that in this profession we give away so much time.
One guy I know spends $3k-$5k a year on design work that never pans out.
Accountants think we're stupid.
As E.R. said, "There are no victims only volunteers."
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"but it's odd that in this profession we give away so much time. "a lot of people "give away time"some own their business, others are employees.If an owner one must decide their method of operating their business and what is overhead and what is not.If I'm a carp do I sharpen and maintain my tools on my employer's time or mine? Do I shop for my tools on my time or my employers?there are lots of ways things can be done and what is considered "normal practice" .
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Do you mean should you or should you not resist the urge to breeze thru the tool aisles when yer making a lumber pickup on an hourly job?
be guilty or not guilty, how do you plead...
Parolee # 53804
"Do you mean should you or should you not resist the urge to breeze thru the tool aisles when yer making a lumber pickup on an hourly job?"yes
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
...but it's odd that in this profession we give away so much time.
When I was teaching, I "gave away" probably 15 hours/week, and the pay wasn't great to begin with. And the parents (and their kids) thought I was dumb because I had gone into teaching. ("Those who can't, teach.") I knew about the extra hours going into the profession. That's what it took to do things the way I wanted.
When I was doing software design, I "gave away" probably 5 hours most weeks--almost always worked through lunch, and if my husband was on back shift I'd work after hours as well. Slept on the office floor one night babysitting a rebuild of some software--alarm clock woke me every 30 minutes to check the rebuild--I was 4 months pregnant. But I liked the job, and I worked with so many really smart people that I felt I needed to do extra to keep up with them.
Currently as a coach I "give away" 15 hours/week--not counting weekend trips to meets, not counting out-of-pocket expenses for meets, not counting what I pay for my kids' lessons (that, as a coach, I don't have to pay for), not counting what I pay to help out with other kids' lessons, not counting the short-term equipment loans (interest-free) I provide for the gym, not counting.... And it's not like this is a non-profit organization (although it should be). But the owner/head coach is a good person who's trying to do something for the kids and he needs the help. And I have the time to do this because I'm "not working".
Our coach currently "gives away" about 8 hours/day to the gym--supports himself doing construction (about $10/hour where we are). The gym pays for his travel to meets, and an occassional tank of gas, but that's about it. Says he'll take a paycheck when he has 3 months' operating expenses saved up--which we would, but he keeps buying equipment--to help the kids.
My husband "gives away" over 500 hours/year--not counting weekend/late night phone calls and phone calls while on vacation, not counting travel time, not counting every time someone (in one of a dozen-some oversight agencies) decides there might be a problem that has to be addressed NOW.
I submit that most really good professionals "give away" a fair amount of their time because that's what it takes to do the job the way they want it done. (I seem to recall hearing that this trait is somewhat unique to the US?)
Kathleen
You give away to the children for obvious reasons: the children.
You gave away to the software job because it benefited your colleagues and company you were working for, which typically will benefit you with a raise/promotion.
Pete and many others (myself used to be included) gave away to greedy/cheap/lazy individuals that did nothing but sponge off of our knowledge, connections and resources.
I donate time and materials to youth groups and consider that giving away, but when a homeowner has me spend a day doing drawings for their home office only to submit MY drawings to 5 other places looking for the best deal, I don't consider that giving away; it's called being robbed and I learned real early not to allow that to happen to me like Pete did.
"but when a homeowner has me spend a day doing drawings for their home office only to submit MY drawings to 5 other places looking for the best deal, I don't consider that giving away"have to disagree. You gave your drawings away. You gave them in anticipation of getting something. You received your end of the agreement, the anticipation. Unless you made it clear that the drawings were not to be used by anyone else.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
You give away to the children for obvious reasons: the children.
"Seeing the joy on their sweet faces as they explored new ideas was payment enough...." If so, then I would think "the pride of looking upon the new house and knowing that I'd created it was payment enough" would be analogous.
... gave away to greedy/cheap/lazy individuals that did nothing but sponge off of our knowledge, connections and resources.
Applied to a good 50% of the parents when I was teaching. Applies to a number of the parents at the gym--not nearly as many because gymnastics is an "extra".
You gave away to the software job because it benefited your colleagues and company you were working for, which typically will benefit you with a raise/promotion.
I wanted to be viewed as someone who was willing to put out extra effort to ensure that something was done right. Yes, this was appreciated by some of my managers and resulted in nice raises--but not always. But I would have done it without the raises because I want people to view me a certain way. I quit teaching not because of the money but because of the lack of appreciation.
Just please don't think that contractors are the only ones who have to deal with these folks--you'll run into jerks in any profession. While there are things you can do to mitigate their impact, the cost to totally eliminate the possibility of being used probably exceeds the actual money lost.
Kathleen
You're exactly right that most worthwhile endeavors include sizeable amounts of time that are spent with no expectations of a financial reward. What I was thinking was more along the lines of the trade offs involved in how we divide our time.
In all aspects of one's life (family, professional, spiritual, community, self) there are essential elements that should be nurtured, as you've pointed out in your examples. These important tasks shouldn't take second stage to those of lesser value. "The enemy of the great is the good."
I enjoy giving away free advice and talking through construction problems for likeable people, donating time for construction emergencies or with volunteer projects such as Habitat. Time spent serving the curiosity of tire kickers is taking away from those more worthwhile volunteer tasks at best and can reduce our ability to produce quality work for paying clients at worst.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
ChicagoMike: I don't think that you can put a lien on without a contract, "oral contracts are not worth the paper they're written on". What I do to stay out of that situation is to tell the customer after a limited time they are on a clock at x$ per hour in writing. Lots of luck...........................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I thought I had heard of something along the lines of a contractor's right to charge a customer that knowingly uses such services without the intent to go ahead with the e work.
Even if there was a law such as that, it would be a huge problem to prove your claim.
If you were a new kid on the block, I'd tell you to talk to Sonny, but you already knew what you were getting into when you started spending more than ten minutes on a phone....
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Pete,
Send a letter to the bank, and let them know that the customer has never completed the project with your company.
If nothing else, maybe the bank will pursue it with their client. Not that you will get the job. And, not that you would want to work for them anyway. But they might not try to do that again.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Send a letter to the bank, and let them know that the customer has never completed the project with your company.
I'm not an attorney, but it is illegal in most areas to intentionally interfere with a contract between two other parties. Hopefully an attorney here can provide more info.
I think I would agree with some of the posts that have followed mine. I still think I would make an innocent call to the bank official that originally asked for the paperwork to be filled out, even if it's only to ask where things are at in the process. Say: "I just wanted to know since I am trying to finalize my schedule for the next few months. Thanks!"
Would there be legal issues? I don't know. I am not a lawyer either.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
dont feel alone im in that club too, i only played once though
Doesn't look like there was a contract.
I did a house estimate for a friend once....then he built it himself....using my est............last time I did that.
charge for the estimate and if approved knock the charge off if you want, but any more you gotta charge or ballpark a square ft price.
I think it was Sonny that was the first to put this school on.
Then Mike has retaught the class several times over .
If I never remember anything else [except bite me ] Ill always remember MS words;
"Never ever put your money into their dream. " I guess we could add time .
You didnt show up for rental or flip classes either .
I dont think you are gonna have enough credits to graduate. <G>
Seriously , people ARE successful helping other people. I think it was Dale Carnegie that said , if you help enough other people get what they want they will help you get what you want .
After pondering the cards that have just been played I think the best move is to treat him like your best friend and offer {if theres any thing else I can do} SMALL SPEECH if the situation arises. If his guilt doesnt get the best of him you might be able to call in a favor later on or he might tell someone else how nice you were to him. That could be a winning hand to play. You will lose at this point by aggressive action with out a legal leg to stand on . Its a small hand but the only one left to play at this point and is better than folding . You will never win from somone you pzzed off or for that matter get the chance . Id check the hand .
Tim
Tim, sometimes you surprise the shid out of me.
Good post.
Parolee # 53804
"After pondering the cards that have just been played I think the best move is to treat him like your best friend and offer {if theres any thing else I can do} SMALL SPEECH if the situation arises. If his guilt doesnt get the best of him you might be able to call in a favor later on or he might tell someone else how nice you were to him. That could be a winning hand to play. You will lose at this point by aggressive action with out a legal leg to stand on . Its a small hand but the only one left to play at this point and is better than folding . You will never win from somone you pzzed off or for that matter get the chance . Id check the hand ."
That is so Zen man. That is probably the best thing to do, but the testosterone in us wants to get even in a neanderthal Braveheart kind of way. So we have testosterone vs. common sense. Nuke-em til he glows vs. turn the other cheek. Being Holy Week I say turn the other cheek, then Nuke him next week! Nah, taking the high road can never hurt. You still will have your integrity and your client will always be a sleazeball. Good post!Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
I had to do a double-take to be sure it was you writing this post, Tim, but it is by far the best advice in the thread so far. Beforehand, the right thing to do was to get an agreement and deposit, but now that time is past and the only money he will gete out of this is on a volunteer basis. Cutting the client off ccold is the best way to destroy th epossibility of any payment.not haat I want a client like this
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
After hearing about some of your problems with employees and customers, I wonder if maybe you don't get clear communications going right up front.
We've been around this subject before and you probably knew the tenor of the responses you would get from your colleagues. Let me again give you the view of the client and from different professional perspective.
I've built a house and plan on building another acting as my own GC ( I know how that is viewed around here but that's a different subject for a different time ). I don't shy away from a building pro who charges for their time. I'm paying for their thought process and expertise not just their time driving nails, running wire, etc. I pay for them for their time that they use while they're away from me calling the lumber yard, their suppliers, etc. If you don't charge for that then you have to make up for "lost time" in other ways i.e. charge more the jobs you do get.
I a physician and people pay me for my time. It's not exactly analogous because everyone knows we don't do estimates, but here's what happens. A patient comes in and wants antibiotics and/or pain rx for instance and in my professional opinion they don't need them. Once in awhile I get this "Well, I'm not paying you because you didn't do anything for me." What I did was use my education and experience to evaluate their situation and try to do the best I can for them. And while I was doing that, I WASN'T seeing someone else waiting for my services ( I work in a busy ED ).
The longer I've been around the more similarities I see between what I do and what FHB pro's do. I also see the same complaints about customers.
Bottom line point... not only SHOULD you charge for estimates ( and thus avoid the type of customer who did this to you ) you DESERVE compensation for your expertise.
"I a physician and people pay me for my time."
I just had to share this with you . <G>
I was seeing a doctor and she pulled the shades closed on the bathroom window . Just kidding .
I had a few more questions to ask the day I saw him than he wanted to answer that day is all I could figgure out . He was probably stressed by the overload. Anyway when I got his bill there was an addtional fee for extra "time per visit".
I figgured I was holding about the same hand as Pete right now but what I really wanted to do was send him a bill in his envelope with his bill shorted the extra time . I had went to see him earliar and he was in emergency surgery they told me but they didnt share that with me until I had spent two hours sitting in his office past due of the visit . I finally announced I was leaving and they told me then. I still need a surgery from him so I paid the bill like a true sheep. I dont want him holding a knife and thinking hes gotta get even. <G> If I get to work on his house likie hes been talking about , I might do it then. hahaha .
Tim
I actually faxed an invoice to my dentist for making me wait 1 hour once for a cleaning. The receprionist called and offered me a free cleaning the next time which I accepted. I was very shocked!
I recently called my optometrist for a routine check and new contacts. His office manager was out so he handled the appointment scheduling himself. He messed up the appointment time, told me one time and wrote down something different. So he wasn't there when I showed up a week later. We rescheduled, when I finally did get in to see him he was all kinds of apologetic. He said "I know you're a busy man and your time is extremely valuable..." I looked him in the eye and said "I know - I charge more than you do." and smiled.
I think he's gonna raise his rates....
Sorry about the hijack, but I'll tell you why that happens. Most docs have contracts with big insurance companies that squeeze them so tight they allow 10 minutes or less per patient. Any more than that and they're losing money.
Despite all the complaining about Emergency Medicine we can spend more time with the patients. I hear all the time "My doctor never told me that..He (She) never explained it like you did." Some of the extra time is an annoying waste of time for the patients since I'm juggling ten patients at a time. But I'm not on the clock like the guys in the office and the worst thing I can do malpractice wise is pizz people off.
The other thing docs should do and so should building pros is explain things as you go along and keep people informed about delays, etc. We are all happier when kept in the loop.
acting as my own GC ( I know how that is viewed around here
Actually, we don't have a problem with people being their own gc. But when they think they can gc a house by visiting 1 hour a day, or save 50% of the cost, or some other naive reason, then they get a dose of real life.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Believe me I've doubled the cost of my house. I did it because I wanted to buy tools and make sawdust and be completely obsessed about some things while not getting in the way of someone who actually does it for a living.
I got my subs in and out on time then crawled around at an incredible slow pace.
But back to the main point. CHARGE FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE BASE. Most people will respect that and you don't want the ones who don't.
Went to patch a roof last year, The owner bragged how cheap he built the house, He offered to tell me his secrets and me always wanting to learn from the masters said yes please tell me, He had 4 builders give bids, list the subs and prices, went down the lists for the cheapest subs then cut out the builder, I think it was BS myself i cant think of anyone listing all there subs unless it went to the bank and i cant imagine the bank working with him to do that with more then one builder and then he could not have cut out the builder, Well i dunno but thats some peoples mindset anyway
If you don't state up front that the customer has to pay for estimates, you've got no case.
George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Can you burn him out?
Can you get away with it?
Good luck!
You need an agreement thaat puts a value on your services up front
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'd call the bank. At least do a follow up call to find out if the job is going forward and if so that you and your numbers are no longer involved.
It reminds me of a call I got about 2 mos ago where some lady "?" wanted a bid for work she never intended to do to be submitted to the ins co. She needed my stationary and me to get the money. She in turn would give me $500 and then use the rest of the money as she wanted.
Go knock on his door and get all alpha male on his azz
I'm actually in the same potential boat myself, I have a customer call me to work up a rough estimate for a major water damage (pipe burst) repair on a post and beam house done up with all the best. I asked for a retainer to offset my costs of accumulating the info and compiling the estimate and that I would later deduct this retainer from the job when the insurance money comes thru.
Hope it works. Sorry to hear your tale. I know I've spent lots of time estimating jobs (additions, renovations, etc) that never went thru. It's good practice at the very least and now you can update your spread sheet on the latest costs .
Bright side man, take care,
Jason
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
I have not had something like this come up for maybe two years - ever since the property bubble burst, and the 'flippers' discovered there are also sharks in the deep water!
An ancient text, "Ethics of the Fathers," teaches that it is wrong to go into a shop and waste the shopkeepers' time if you have no intent to purchase. They reason that you have sinned in getting his hopes up.
In our work, folks USUALLY call only when they need something done, are seriously considering getting something done, or need more information in order to make a decision. Most folks are pretty up-front as to their intent. As a result, many if us are willing to talk to a customer; work usually results for someone.
There are, unfortunately, those who like to play games. There seems to be more of these folks than there once were. Some pick your brain, then attempt to DIY it. Others, especially in property deals, only want your price as a lever in negotiation with the seller; they have absolutely no intention of ever getting anything done :(
That is why there are "service call" fees. It's up to you to decide when to, and how to, charge one. One approach is to charge for the "survey," and promise to apply that fee to the job when it happens.
Sure, there's a place for you to use your judgment, as well. For example, Reno has a fair number of Mormons. My experience has been that they NEVER ask a question without there being a sincere intent. I never have to worry if a Mormon calls, asking about work. I may not get the job, but I can be sure someone will!
At the other extreme, there are realtors ... especially the 'deal maker' types. Those folks NEVER have any intention of spending a nickel. For them, its 'cash in advance.'
In a like manner, brothels have been good, while churches have been bad. Some casinos have sterling reputations, while others could only be improved if crooks ran them!
Just as a tradesman give great thought to the task before he drills that hole, or makes that cut .... a businessman has to consider his risks as well.
Something like this happened to me once, I did a full set of preliminary (not construction) drawings and priced the job walked the land, sited the house and laid out for the septic permit. They told me they thought my price was too high and agreed to table the project. I got not one dime, they took my drawings to a draftsman, made a few changes and had another builder build the house. I drove by the lot one day on other business and saw my house standing there. Left my business card in their front door with no note just to put them on notice.
Talked to a local architect/mentor about it and his take was it wouldn't be worth the legal bills to pursue it, his bottom line is that these are not the kind of people you want to do business with anyway. I have another friend who took a crooked client to court, won and still tripled his loses and put himself out of business.
Just repeat after me "these are not the kind of people you want to do business with anyway." It stinks, but it could have been worse.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Pete,
A popular scam is to get a contractor to complete the necessary paperwork for a rehab loan, then complete the work themselves (or with unlicensed contractors)... then submit for draws under the contractor's name.
To get some types of loans, the lender will require the work to be estimated/completed by a licensed contractor. The scammers will get an unwitting contractor to complete an estimate, submit it to the lender, then put in a mailing address change for the contractor. Thus, when they submit for draws, the check gets mailed to the new address.
In some extreme cases, the scammer will submit for draws without any work being completed at all. thus leaving the lender holding the bag.
At the very least, I would consult a lawyer and explain the situation to him/her... then have the lawyer contact the lender to get your name out of the mix. the last thing you would want is someone knocking at your door asking for a refund of monies "sent to you" for work not completed. the cost of just the litigation would FAR eclipse the pittance that a call to your attorney would cost.
A while back I got a certified letter from the MN state OSHA seems that my roofing foreman fired an employee for refusing to get on a icy roof. After calling the inspector and explaining that I dont have any employees he said just write a letter saying that and I can close the file. I come to find out the laborer was getting paid with a personal check. I had ESTIMATED a job come to find out that a permit was pulled in that amount. When I called to have the application Faxed to me there was a large whiteout blob over the contractors name and licsense number of course I cant prove anything. Mike