We’ve been researching ways to cut labor costs for awhile now. We laid off all our high paid employees…permanantly. I started figuring ways to piecework a house. We’ve done several other things.
Anyways..we’re taking a roof off a house tomorrow and putting a second story on it. It’s relatively small 24′ x 32′ but we didn’t want to have this thing exposed to the weather.
So we lined up some extra help: we recruited a guy that runs a roofing business. They are accustomed to tearing off roofs and doing demo, in addition to laying shingles. He’s bringing his three laborers. He has worker’s compensation and liability. Guess how much he’s charging us for himself and his crew!!!!?
$55.50! That’s not $55 per man…that’s $55 for the four of them!!!!!!
Now you know why we are getting out of the biz.
blue
Replies
Man, talk about charity. Thats about what I charge for me and my helper before I figure in any profit. That poor guy cant be making a dime. Does he have a truck or a radioflyer?
I know things are tight around here. I've been surprised with the gaps in my schedule, I had a better winter than summer so far. Still I dont think I could give it away by that much.
How much is minimum wage there? Still $5.10?
That price is amazing.
zak
"so it goes"
Man there is a whole world of folks that live on $300 a week... I don't know how maybe momma makes $300 a week too... there are tons of apts & houses that rent for $350mo around here... not where i'd want to live but folks do live there and they work somewhere... and most don't think they are poor...
I'm not slam'n anyone for charge'n whatever they can charge but there is a whole working world out there that gets ignored... alot of these guys have some skills... like keep'n a $300 truck running for 5 yrs...
but for the grace of god goes I
p
Does he pay his employees cash?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Lemme guess.
Your paying cash.
His is paying his guys cash.
Sure he has WC - for himself. Not for those guys.
Sure he has liability, but not for those guys. If something happens he'll tell the ins. co. that they were hired for this job only.
You are paying him at cost (HA!). This is not the price he would charge a HO. After your post, the HO's who read this thread will think that is what THEY should be paying! Or at least it is what we are paying and therefore a bisis to determine what they should pay.
With all or any of the above being true, it is no wonder why so many tradespeople have a tough time of getting paid adequately. It kinda keeps our industry from being ligit - legally and professionally - with proper business standards and practices.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
I'ts amazing how people will subscribe to what they think is capitalism until it puts them out of work. Kind of like those who will buy crap at HD to ostensibly save money and then wonder why there are no good local lumber stores around anymore.
Im hoping thats $55/hr and not for the job!!!! Would be interesting to see his break-down costs, wonder if he's even breaking even when one adds in overhead and such cost's.
Course, even if he is losing money on this job, could be looking at it as advertiseing/ networking costs.
blueyeddevil,
It's getting grim, piece work seems to be the way to make money nowdays,, I remember when a crew would do a house from start to finish, now days there's a specialist for everything!
If things go click click it works and the specialist can do the job faster, cheaper and for less cost.. If things back up or weather slows or stops progress there is trouble..
I shouldn't beef, since I make my living selling equipment to framers which is kinda a sub specialist of specialist!
Very few builders who build the whole house can afford to buy my equipment,, in part because it has to sit around while the interior stuff is done and in part because a whole house builder is so slow compared to a specialist.
The delude themselves that they are doing a superior job but how can they? I mean we've all heard the jack of all trades master of none quote and it really seems to be the trueth..
Even whole house builders sub out certain jobs, maybe the sheetrocking or maybe the plumbing etc.. But it's extremely rare when one guy does it all.
Now I happen to be the exception that proves the rule.. I mean the only thing I've subbed out thus far was to bring the power in from the pole and hooking it up to the box. The rest is me or me with a helper..
P.S. I have 5 years of every spare minute of my life in the house thus far with another 5 to go. While very satisfying and personally rewarding, it's not how I'd ever suggest someone build a home..
Why do you want subs like that on your job??
I don't what to say Blue.
If all that matters to you is what you put in your pocket at the end of the day then I guess you'll sleep just fine.
But I can't say you're doing anything to make "the situation" any better. But I guess I also can't really say it's your job or duty to make an effort to improve "the situation" either.
Maybe it'll work out great and you'll get everything you hope for from them.
Or maybe you'll get exactly what you're paying for.
Good luck with that one. How's your loyal "high paid" help feel about being permanently layed-off? Around here you can't even get four monkeys from "LaborReady" for $55.50/hr.
With respect to Blue I realized after posting that the economy there might be a lot different than other places, and the situation re finding work might require drastic measures. My mother lives 40 miles from Detroit in a place that has historically been somewhat insulated from the auto economy, but she reports that homes are not selling and prices are even falling. Her neighbor built a $500K spec and then moved into it.
Yeah, it really sounds like a sad state of affairs over there Dave. I guess you do what you gotta do, right? Kids gotta eat......View Image
David -
Times can be tough as he!! for the people doing the work, but on the othe end, it sounds a little like Blue is bragging about how good it is for him to have these four guys working for squat. I guess that's what happens when you become a developer, you forget what it's like to work for your money.
If I did this, I would probably feel bad, don't think I would be bragging on it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Wow, as a carpenter apprentice who's looking forward to a long career and hopefully someday a master carpenter, I'm wondering if my employer will replace me with cheaper labor?
On the one hand, the trades are a tough racket and the national trend in everything is towards cost cutting and outsourcing jobs. Make sure that you become indispensable, one of the very few who can do what you do.
On the other hand, contractors in many places are looking hard for new blood, and complain about the low skill levels, poor work ethic, and general lack of good workers. Pay close attention to where in your area, and in the country, the good work is. Go there and stay there.
"I'm wondering if my employer will replace me with cheaper labor?"
most likely ... sooner or later ... one of them will try. The trick is to be better than the competition. Set the bar higher ... demand higher pay ... and be worth it.
Do all that ... and they'll still try ... but they'll fail one way or another.
bet Blue figures that out sooner rather than later too.
then again ... maybe U already work for a guy that already knows ... either thru his own mistakes or from paying attention to others. I learned from watching ... I charge on the higher side of average, and I gladly pay my subs on the higher side of average. In the end ... everyone involved if happy.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Carpenter apprentice,
Your only protection against such practices is thru a union.. A Union can be strong enough to compell a fair wage for the work involved.. You as an individual are doomed to accept whatever someone needs to pay..
They will . But one day you will have acquired enough skills to replace your employer and be your own boss. It may be hard to visualize today, as a beginner lacking proper training and experience. You will also come to realize that it's hard to make a decent living working for someone else. You work hard everyday to make enough to get by and the employer makes a profit on every hour of every guy working.
CA,
Yes there are employers who value experience, hard work, and loyalty--I'm one of them. And we willingly reward those things with better pay and working conditions. Look hard enough and you'll find an employer who cares--I'm lucky I found that employer the first time.
However, you've also got to understand that as a piecework subcontractor, you only have so much money in every job, and you know what it costs per day to run your men (and company). You also know what you need/want to make out of the job, and base your pay scales accordingly.
Don't worry, again, there are some of us who want the best, and we're willing to pay for it--however, you've got to be willing to really bust your azz and move!. I have a short little memo I give to every new guy on his first day entitled "New Hires: What I Expect From You." The first rule is "Get ready to have your azz run into the ground." That's also the first thing I tell people who call from help wanted ads.
Keep on it, man, and learn as much as you can from BT, JLC, and all the books you can read...then grab some scrap, buy a saw, and screw it up til you figure it out!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
dieselpig,
I need to defend Blue here.. Not because that's what I want but because that is the way things have become.. The specialist has become a fact. Often the only way a specialist can become well known is by selling his services at an extremely low price so people can judge his work and then determine his real value.
Since there is risk involved there needs to be reward or nobody would ever make a change.. Yes that hurts the price you get for your labors. That is the price of competition..
"Specialists" don't come at four for $55.
EDIT: Look, Blue has every right in the world to hire these guys for short money if they're willing to except it. Blue is a pure capitalist... more power to him.... he's probably got a fatter bank account than I do.
But when you give in to something like this and start paying guys what amounts to poverty level income and use their acceptance of this pittance of a wage as justification.....well.... if nothing else, you've given up your right to b1tch and moan about what a sad state affairs our proffession is in. Because at that point, you are not only aware of the problem..... you've become the problem.
View Image
Edited 6/9/2006 2:03 pm ET by dieselpig
dieselpig,
You're both right and wrong!
Paying anyone less than a living wage is morally wrong and should be outlawed. Anybody willing to work is entitled to a living wage.. Here in Minnesota The last numbers I heard bantied about were $17.00 an hour but that's pretty old..
Less than that and sooner or later society has to bail out the worker..
He will get sick, go to an emergency room, and the resulting bill will most likely be paid for by the tax payers.. Or he'll buy and old beater of a car that pollutes a lot simply because his transportation budget won't allow anything else..
He'll move into a place where rent is cheap and because of it the school district suffers and his kids won't reach their full potential.
His kids will look at daddy busting his azz trying to get ahead and be tempted when somebody tells them they can make a lot of money selling drugs in school.. (it only takes one) Tempted he'll yield and then we get the results of that, more prisoners in jail at a societal cost in excess of $65,000 per per per year!
Clearly it's in societies interest to pay a living wage to anyone willing to work..
However America is all about free enterprise and unfortunetly some take that to mean they shouldn't have to pay the costs of living in that society..
They avoid paying taxes, putting further burden on those of us willing to accept that obligation and pay as little as they can to maximise their own profit..
It's a political arguement as well as an economic one.. It's best defeated if everything was unionized and all unions were honest and fair.. Individuals have very little power while groups can be extremely powerful.. Yes sure there are unions like the teamsters who seem corrupt from day one and Unions like the UAW who seem as gready as the management they work for.. Yet there can and are good decent unions..
The backbone of the middle class the entrepenure is pressured by his obligations, his bank and his interest in turning a profit to look for lower costs wherever he can find them.. Thus we have situations as Blue has described..
Is Blue wrong to take advantage of the situation? again both yes and no.. We aren't wearing his shoes.. we have little knowledge of the pressures on him or other choices.
Well, what about looking at it from the other side. How many jobs has he bid in the last years that he has lost because ALL/most the other guys are doing the exact same thing. When you are bidding/gettind 1:3 or 1:5 then that's not bad, but when it then becomes 1:10 or 1:20 then you need to rethink the gameplan.
This is exactly what I was going through when I decided that I wasn't going to have any more employees. There were too many shops that were hiring guys for darn near minimum wage and paying them cash. Plus the work was substandard. The clients/GC's really didn't want to care about the quality when they could get quantity for little cost. Seems to be the way the building industry is going.
Migraine,
As I said, we're not wearing Blue's shoes
I know, you were the last post . There were many others that I should have sent the reply to, but... tag, your it :~)
P.S.
We are all still waiting to see photos of your place. Care to try..again??
Everyone here, who's said their piece on this topic, has outlined why the construction industry is going backward instead of forward. It appears the day is fast approaching when no one who is skilled with hands will be taking up the construction trades, in any form, to make a living at it. If your the guy selling to the end user you might have some chance but the pressure to sell your finished product at the lowest price is going to be an unending struggle from this point forward. The one who puts out the fastest, the cheapest and the shoddiest product will win the day because even the end users these days prize the low cost of their new home over the quality of it's construction. It might be the sh*tiest built house on the block with all kinds of problems but it looks the part when he bought it and sold for a thousand dollars under everyone else. The buyer will likely have a house warming, gloating upon his good fortune by telling his friends how cheaply he's gotten into the home rather then the quality of workmanship in the winding stairs or door panels.
my dad tells me of a place in time when it took a year to build a modest 1200sf home... no power tools,
when the power saw made it way to jobsites many in the trades wanted them outlawed for many of the exact reasons that have been listed in this thread, was told the same thing about drywall....
Frenchy with a good heart doesn't have a clue, if everyone made 65k a yr then the cost of living would go up to where everyone needed to make 95k... you are looking to the government for numers on what a living wage is... and there really is no such thing... you assume all people have the same wants & needs as you... it just ain't so there is truth in... "the average person... is below average..." life ain't fair... I have no idea if you have ever had to make a payroll for 5 or 500... dude i have and it's something I choose to no longer do... It's thankless you want everyone to have your vision your passion and your drive... you want people to do well and even to move on to bigger and better than you can offer.... but at the end of the day there are those that love you and there are those that think you are getting rich off of their labor... everyone that has ever worked for me I encouraged to learn and move on and work for themself... I've never thought that one needed a job period, I don't like the idea and i never expected others too... If you have a job you are a tool, a machine that must produce enough to not only cover your wage but that of others if you can be trained to do a job in a day... a week... a month... your only real value is that you show up when required... this is not a 65k position... but it's all alot of folks want... they want their 300-400 dollars a week... they want to know they have that each and every week... and with this they are sated...
I use to try to teach these same people that there is more to the world and to life than just get'n your few $$ at the end of everyweek... out of 100's I've employed... maybe 2 got it... and for that I'm reaching because it'd have to be 2 I no longer know... I know of none...
most talented guy i ever had working for me I put through rehab 3x there were weeks i wouldn't let him work enough hours just so he wouldn't have the $$ to buy enough drugs to kill himself THAT weekend... heres a goodlooking smart talented hardworking guy who would walk 10 miles in house slippers in the rain to my house to get $10 and stand on my door step and cry for it.... and you want to pay him 65k
It's fast becoming a world market, the US may consume more but we also feed, protect, and shelter the world... us consuming what we do drives the ability for us to do so, no one else would or could do what we do for the world...
p
ponytl,
you assume a whole lot. First, like you I've had to earn every dime I have.. I've earned my income thru commisions and if I'm not successful then I don't eat.. it's that simple..
I have a high sense of moral values it's true. But don't expect me to thump a bible or try to sell my religion.. It's based on the golden rule.Treat others as you would have them treat you..
Trust me, it works..
As for your tale of whoa, Drugs happen in construction.. the real question is, are you an enabler?
Do you take advantage of a craftsman as long as he can do the job for you or have you attempted to help beyond that? If you have and it was rejected then tough love is called for. if not then you have an obligation as a human being..
Very well said...and I will log off on a good note. stinky
woodway,
Most all of us start out with few skills and no experiance, just a burning desire to achieve.. we learn as we go.. to get hired we start cheap and hopefully increase our skills as we go..
At some point it is no longer enough to simply get by and we start to demand an increase in wages equal to our skill levels, that's when the next hungry set of hands get's his oppertunety.
It's the way it's aways been and the way it will always be.. Only by setting up real standards and competing to meet them will it ever change..
Construction is a rewarding job.. that is rewarding in spirit.. you can always drive by and say, I helped build that! Look at some papershuffler at an insurance company and compare your accomplishments..
That's the reason why there will always be someone else to attempt the job no matter what the pay scale..
As for the new owner bragging about how cheap he got the house, don't you like a deal as well? maybe you have superior skill or judgement regarding the methods of construction. he may have selected a better location or picked that house because of superior schools, or proximity to his job whatever,...
Judge not least you be judged..
Judge not least you be judged..
Ouch.View Image
Good post. Like you are saying, we pay for everything whether we know it or not.
dieselpig - "But when you give in to something like this and start paying guys what amounts to poverty level income and use their acceptance of this pittance of a wage as justification.....well.... if nothing else, you've given up your right to b1tch and moan about what a sad state affairs our proffession is in. Because at that point, you are not only aware of the problem..... you've become the problem."
Hurrah. well said.
I can't believe I've been listening to (reading) everyone isn't standing up and saying just how bogus it is to exploit naive people like the $55 dollar for 4 contractor. When a contractor says something like that to me I stand up and do the right thing and tell him or her that they are pricing their work incorrectly and will soon be in the poor house and then work with them to help them set the right price they need to run their business correctly.
Blue, how about instead of trying to cut labor costs (which will only result in quality problems which will add to your total cost of production in the long run) you work on increasing throughput which has been shown in many studies to add directly to the bottom line.
View Image
Why, thank you sir. I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't scratch their head a bit after reading the original post.
I believe it was Blue himself who used to use the tagline, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."View Image
Well folks, I got a huge kick out of reading the posts tonite. I'm glad I wasn't around to answer any of them till they played themselves out.
I got the biggest kick out of Jerrald's. Not because Jerrald said anything wrong....but because he wants me to tell this guy how to run his business.....and the guy rolled up in a brand new truck and parked it next to my 1999! LOL!
Just to set the record straight: we've used this roofing crew before and have recommended them to other contacts that have used him and liked him. He does nice work. He doesn't start early, but he works late. They take a long lunch (sometimes two hours), but it's not unusual for them to work till dark.
I don't know how or what he pays his guys. Quite frankly, it's not my business. That's why we contracted with him, the subcontractor. As for the price: we didn't expect such a low figure. He normally bids everything by the square and this was by the hour. He was using us as fill time. Instead of giving him and his guys a day off, he helped us for the day and billed hourly...at that ridiculously low price. We didn't think it would be real high, but we certainly didn't think it would be $55.
So, anyways, I'm not about to argue and raise someones rates. Were in a dogfight for life here in Michigan and quite frankly, I'll probably be using that $55 as a benchmark to beat contractors up in the future. You can tell me I'm part of the problem, but I'm a capitalist....they can take it or leave it, just like I've had to do for the last 30 years. I've done my time paying people well. I've paid the guys $25 per hour in 1988 only to have them come in only 15 hours a week because they made enough to pay their bills in that amount of time. I've paid guys $1000 per week, with medical and vacation. All those salaries were justifialbe based on my bids and the production rates.
Well the worm has turned.
Now the guys are getting paid the same rates based on our bids and production rates. Its a finacial reality. It's time to leave the trades and find another lifeboat.
This post is long enough. I'll post pics of the job in the next post.
blue
I don't embed the pics, so you'll have to click and open them. I've made them small, so the dialuppers can peek.
I rolled up just after 6:30 am. Frank had told me that everyone would be there. I was expecting to see Frank and Steve (our only employee), Mike the roofer and his three henchmen, and Pierre and one of his guys ( I know nothing about Pierre). Well, to no big surprise, only Steve and I are there.
So, we promptly stringout a couple of line, run up the ladder and start hacking.
Our plan is simple: we had prebuilt the walls and tore off the overhangs. That had taken the three of us about 9 hours total ( four hours to prebuild and 5 hours to destroy). Our intention is to get the thing "dried" in before we leave tonite. To accomplish, this, we needed all of those guys...I thought. Quite often, I think wrongly! LOL. Furthermore, we are faceing a possiblity of rain...chances of thundershowers at 40%. We had already called off the job yesterday because of those same weather predictions and the weather was beautiful...we missed a golden opportunity!
Anyways, Steve and I start hacking. Frank shows up 15 minutes later and we are barely breaking into the gable.
Pierre shows up alone about 7:15 after being lost for awhile. We had ordered a dumpster change at 7:30 figureing it would be chock full with all those guys, but the three and a half of us only have the thing 5/8 full. The driver graciously hangs around for 25 minutes while we try to get it closer to the top. Mike the roofer gets there about 7:30 after being lost too and at about 9 am I come down to take a break and take this shot.
At this point, I'm feeling like I'm about a half hour behind schedule and there's still a little roof left to demo. I'm okay with that because we have enough manpower and the weather looks good. They are predicting scattered showers to hit at noon. I'm thinking we'll easily have the deck on and be able to tarp it if we have too.
blue
After that nine oclock break, Frank and I started getting the perimeter framing done. At 12 or 12:30 we broke for lunch. The deck was framed, but there was some end blocking on the far end to do. The deck framing was simple but anytime your working over old framing things come up. Mike's roofing crew has done a great job of managing the debris despite the fact that we filled the second dumpster (they were small trailer units) and they had to stage quite a load up on that far garage roof till the third dumspter got there. The roofing crew took off for lunch and we wouldn't see them again till about 2 pm.
We still have some internal framing (that endblocking stuff). We also have to stock all the materials up there (deck ply and studs).
blue
At about 1 30 or 2 pm (I can't remember the time) we started setting the back wall. We two pieced this wall because it would be too heavy to boom it that far down for old betsy.Pierre is signalling and Steve is setting on the right.
blue
We've set about half the trusses. We've left the gable off and will set to the other end. Once that other gable is set and braced, we will be able to release the temp braces on the first truss thatwe set and fly in the gable.
I'm guessing it was about 3 15 to 3 30 when we swung in the front wall. It took us quite a long time because both side walls were exactly 4' short! We just did some terrible math when we built the side walls. Luckily there wasn't any overhang work to fix. All we had to do was bang together some 4' wall and cut back the top plates to make it look like carpenters built it.
Also, for some unknown reason, the front and rear walls were 1 1/2" long. I whacked the rear wall off and also trimmed the overhang before the sidewalls were installed, but the front wall got set with it's extra 1 1/2" on it and still needs to be trimmed. I'll be on a ladder on Monday doing that. No biggy.
blue
I've got about 4 trusses left to set and the two gables. Heres a shot of the interior. We've spread plywood around to walk on and staged the interior studs.
I'm thinking it is somewheres between 3:30 and 4:00 and the first sheets of plywood are layed. At this point I'm tired enough to come down for a short break before we make the final push. We've had several showers that dampened the wood but no real gushers. The osb was slippery and I wasn't looking forward to dealing with that slippery roof. Thankfully, as I drank my last tea, the sun broke out and we got to lay the roof in sunshine. That's Mike the roofer up there. He doesn't know much about laying plywood, but he's a trooper. I'd put him on any team of mine, any day of the week.
blue
The only time I'm sure of is quittin' time. It was 4:35. I remember thinking that if I hadn't been late, I would've finished on time! That's Frank up there checking out his side.
Mike and his guys have already started stocking the ice and water shield. The paper is staged by the ladder. I'm done for the day. We'll sit on the table and watch Mike and his guys "dry it in". They sit up there and take a 20 minute break before they start. It took them about 30 minutes after that. The homeowner is a great guy. He loves his Bud and we have some beverages before we leave at about 6pm. I go all out and have a diet pepsi, WITH CAFFIENE! I'm gonna need it and some IB to get sleep later that night.
The last shot shows the interior. You can see the dampness on the osb.
Mike's crew at $55 per hour was easily the best bargain I've had in many years. Maybe I'll be able to get a new truck soon too!
I'm not so sure about Pierre. He was a bit of a talker but I had to hold his hand a bit. I was thankful for his effort and we'll use him again in the future. He left promptly at 4:30.
Another fun day.
blue
Nice Day of work!
You guys did Good! I hear what your saying about the current depression in building trades. My 17yo son is following in my footsteps, & not sure thats such a good thing, working on him to do 4yrs of college,will see!
Thanks G8.
I would have mixed feelings about my kid entering the trades. The work can be fun and rewarding but the financial aspects of it suck. On the other hand, if a kid ain't cut out for college, that can be bad too.
It's a terrible dilema for the trades.
blue
You auditioning for Extreme Makeover or something? Instant 2-story house - cool! Thanks for the pix.
I have to share something I witnessed today. I went in to do some tile work in a house we're building this morning and the owners were there with some friends of theirs. I knew one of these friends was a carpenter (so I thought) so we struck up a conversation about the weather, material and gas prices. He says to me how carpenters need to make good money to buy groceries and gas these days. I said its frustrating how clients will sometimes have a hard time understanding why a carpenter needs to charge the same rates as other skilled trades (I believe I used a mechanic's rate at a local car dealership). He looks at me and said "Oh, I don't charge anything like a mechanic... I only charge $20/HR.
I just stood there looking at him. I couldn't belive what I had just heard. I knew he was a friend of our client so I didn't want to really say what I was thinking. Man, I couldn't believe it.
Then I read here about Blue's project and it inspired me. It takes a true carpenter (actually I would call someone a tradesmen) to be able to pre-build those walls, rip-off the roof structure, co-ordinate all the labor and materials plus actually complete of of this in such a short time frame. I want to be that individual someday... and I would bet my pay cheque they don't charge themselves out at $20/HR.
Obviously its going to take some smart thinking to be productive and profitable. We went from hammers to air nailers, handsaws to circular saws and use all kinds of jigs to be productive in our craft. I guess that's part of the challenge that I enjoy with this trade.
I recently heard a comment by a retail sales consultant about peoples attitudes towards purchase. The big box stores have created a monster... the consumer. The consumer wants the lowest price, the best service and the best quality. Well I'm no economist but one of these has to give.
Unfortunately consumers want the nicest house at the cheapest price. Something has to give. Quality? Price? Service?
Carp,
"Somethings got to give, Quality, Price or Service. "
Guess which one stays at the top of the list, most of the time? PRICE!!
Like some others here, I've done away with employees. I try to find work that I can do alone. It's not agaist my nature to build a whole house alone, given the right client. (Willing to spend the money, to allow me to take the time).
Occationally, I use a couple of other small subs, for framing. I hired one 2 winters ago, as he was slow at the time. When asking his price, I was supprised that he had lowered it, because he was slow at the time. I paid him what he normally would have charged, as the job was bid properly and the money was there. He was quite pleased, and will come back to work on my jobs, almost on a moments notice.
There will always be bargain hunters out there. Our job, is to seek out the clients who actually value our time. It can be tough, but is also achievable.
You just have to be willing and able to say no, now and then, and stand your ground. Let the rest of the fools beat each other out of business. The last ones standing will comand what ever price they want. (That's my dillusional dream anyway)
Brudoggie
Trouble is, there seems to always be someone that will do it for cheaper.
If you posted to me in this thread and deleted it, could you please post to me again so that it stops showing up in my "unread messages to me" window?
Gracious.View Image
will this work???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yep. That did it. Thank you kindly sir.View Image
People in our profession get paid what they're worth. If someone wants to work for $55/hour for four guys, who are we to manage his business and tell him it's too cheap? That might be $55/hour more than they would have received without the job.
Having said that, it makes me shutter whenever a low paid laborer is on site since I'm the guy who gets to fix the things they break.
Just this week we had a $7/hr. kid simply chip a window frame that will take 15 minutes out of my day to fix. Essentially he would have to work for free the entire time he was on site.
It almost turns my stomach to bring up the big losses from low-wage idiots.
If a simple laborer (as an employee) is accident free and can keep pace with a decent carpenter they are worth at least $10 with very little knowledge and the ones you want to keep are probably worth $15. At least on the crews I've been on, four good laborers are in the $60/hr. range. That's a far cry from what they should get billed out at.
People in our profession get paid what they're worth.
That's an awful broad brush you're painting with trout. Can't say I agree with you there. If it's true... then I'm moving to where ever it is you're at.... and billing myself out at the $224/hr you say you're billing yourself out at.
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Edited 6/17/2006 8:01 pm ET by dieselpig
$224/hr
Where did that number come from? I was simply stating that our better laborers get in the range of $15/hour and four of them together would get $60/hour in their pockets.
If someone isn't getting what they're worth, why not simply engage their underpaid legs and walk to the building site and contractor next door and get hired on for more money?
At the most basic level contractors pay the most to those whom make the greedy SOB the most profit. If a carpenter can make a contractor $40/hr. in net profit, there are few that would argue that at $20/hr. (total cost) the carpenter is likely to walk next door to the next contractor, and at $40/hr. (total cost) the carpenter might as well be let go since he isn't contributing to overall net profit.
In addition to carpentry skills, we're all at the mercy of supply and demand, but also on our own marketing and business skills. In the rocky mountain region t's not uncommon for subs from the more financial strapped rural areas to travel over 500 miles for better paying projects. Likewise we've all heard the supply/demand tales from the gulf states.
My recent move to Idaho from Wyoming ment competing in a market that pays about 20% less across the board for all trades, and even worse than that for trades that hire workers with the least skills. There are simply a glut of people who are willing to work for less.
In the Boise market I'm worth roughly 20% less as a custom home carpenter with the same cost of living, like it or not. After nextworking with a couple dozen lead carpenters from construction outfits with the better reputations, they all roughly agreed on this market's wage limits.
Luckily I was able to transition from new construction into the more lucrative remodeling and came out better for the move, but not by much.
If younger and there were no family ties locally, I'd happily take advantage of the supply/demand situations and work in the big ski town in summer and the huricane damaged states in winter.
Thank the construction gods that we're in the good ol' US and not in China simply putting together the tools that we all take for granted for a few dollars a day.
Now I'm really confused, so bear with me. I just re-read your second post and unless I'm misunderstanding something you were looking at taking a 20% decrease in wages by moving from one location to another.... with equal costs of living.
So if "we're all making what we're worth"..... which is it? Were you overpaid by 20% the first time, or were you getting the shaft in the new place. Either way, just the fact that there is a discrepency in your earnings from one location to the next sorta washes out the "we get paid what we're worth" argument, doesn't it?
What am I missing?View Image
Just this week we had a $7/hr. kid simply chip a window frame that will take 15 minutes out of my day to fix.
That doesn't sound so bad. I've had hundreds of $25.00 guys do something stupid that cost me hundreds and thousands to fix.
I'm not looking for perfection out of anyone. I know better than that. Maybe after you've had yourself exposed enough, you'll stop shuddering. I don't even give it a thought anymore.
Just for your information, the low priced laborers didn't ruin anything that I know of. They did a great job. We had a higher priced guy come in too and he was the only one that ruined something. He dropped the end of a heavy chunk of roof and it went through the ceiling causing a dimple. Luckily it landed in a small hall and it will be very easy to patch and paint that entire ceiling. We aren't even the ones paying for that. This particular homeowner is contracting his own drywall and all the patching was going to be part of that contract. We had warned him that there would be some holes.
blue
Maybe after you've had yourself exposed enough, you'll stop shuddering.
Actually, it's been getting harder over the years instead of easier! I just don't have the stress tollerance to be around the accident prone or otherwise screwed up guys any more.
There is(was) a three story retirement complex (about 25,000 sqft?) being built across the street. One morning, only days before sheetrock would have been installed, the entire wooden structure was burned to the ground. As quick as it spread, the fire department could only watch and keep surrounding buildings from burning. Demolition of the brick layers scaffolding for safety reasons made a fire investigation impossible. Everyone suspects it was started by a fired employee of one sub or another.
To be honest, I do envy those who can work with the less skilled workers since you guys have a much higher upside profit potential.
Working as a lead carp for someone else, it was a bit easier since a carpenter who was a pain the ars, or was having a bad week could be sent to work with another lead and become their problem. Now that we are building with a crew of two, there isn't anywhere for those guys to go.
If we all rise to the level of our incompetence, and I'm still sweeping floors at the end of the day, maybe that should be telling me something. :-)
I'm like you. When we have to hand-dig and move dirt in wheelbarrows, I'd rather have four $25/hour guys do it. If I had access to good cheap labor maybe I'd feel differently, but in my market anyone at $15 or under is dangerous, and under $20 they're marginal. There are very few days when I'm in a situation where there's nothing to damage... in fact, there are none.
You said the $7/hr kid broke something that would take you 15 minutes to fix.... the value of that being equal to him "working free the entire time he is onsite".
So I assumed and 8hr day. At $7/hr. That's $56. or 15 minutes of your time. So at $56/15 minutes....... $224/hr.
Or were you exaggerating?
My only real point was that I don't agree that people in this profession are "paid what they're worth". In fact I think that overall, quite the opposite is true. Sure they're are exceptions. But if you're going to make a blanket statement like that I have to assume that you are talking about the majority of people in the trades.... maybe you weren't... but that's what it sounded like.View Image
I think I know the four Guys, Juan and his cousins, Hose-A, Hose-B & Hose-C. At least thats the names they use around here!
At 11:00 last night I rolled in from two weeks in the field. Going back out for a week or two in about a month.
The rain, 2 hours of sleep a night, long days and wearing the same underwear for 8 days straight had me longing for a good day on a framing crew.
Of course the newly aquired chronic degenerative knee thingy doesn't go well with either trade.
Sat down to check my E-Mail and surf the net a little before the kids come home and happened upon this.
I don't know what to say.
Around here it's kinnda funny. houses are sitting longer on the market. Prices seem to have stabilized and foreclosures have ticked up a little. But things haven't really taken a hit yet.
The last time they did, there was a guy running an ad in the local paper that you could hire him or any of his guys for $12 per hour. At the time I was making $13 an hour. It took most of the guys around here 10 years to recover. Hell, guys are still subbing themselves out for $18 an hour.
Every day I see something new designed with one thing in mind. To make something cheaper or faster or both. Most of the times not better. Just cheaper and faster.
The construction industry is no different. The Illegals everyone complians about are just one aspect. Specialization in some cases is another. I know of some operations where one crew just frames floors, another just walls, one just sets trusses and yet another just slaps on plywood. None of the crews could ever fend for themselves and frame a whole house. And as such, none are worth a whole lot. SO, they just keep chugging along like the endentured servants they are.
I know the reason a business exists is to make a profit.
I just don't understand the mindset that leads a man to leave his profit on the table to ensure another makes his.
Everytime that happens it gets hard on each and every other guy in that trade trying to feed his wife and kids.
Thanks for the reminder that 8 days in the same underwear isn't the end of the world. Of course, I've got to take all my stuff to the laundromat because my wife will kill me if she finds it in her washer.