Dumb question I know. I’ve always cut bottom plates out for doorways with a sawzall, followed by handsaw to avoid cutting the subfloor. Any easier – quicker – cleaner methods out there?
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>>Dumb question I know. I've always cut bottom plates out for doorways with a sawzall, followed by handsaw to avoid cutting the subfloor. Any easier - quicker - cleaner methods out there?<<
Yes, don't run the shoe'sill through your openings.
Why are you running the plates through the doorways to begin with? When I snap every wall line and mark all openings the shoe/sill stops at the openings. Frame the walls and stand them up without the shoe running through the openings. Nothing to cut out later.
If you still find the need to run the shoe through the opening for some reason and stand the walls up, don't install the jacks, cut the shoe before the jacks are installed with a circular saw set 1-1/2". A Makita saw from the table back to the blade is 1-1/2".
cut the shoe before the jacks are installed with a circular saw set 1-1/2".
Yes, that's how we did it. As you say, the saw blade is 1-1/2" from the edge of the saw shoe. (We never worried if the saw blade was too deep by a smidge, better than not deep enough.)
Edited 11/14/2009 10:31 pm ET by Danno
Agree with Joe, but if you do want to run the plate thru your openings, turn it over before nailing studs and run your skilsaw thru at each end of the opening, set for 3/4" deep. When you come back later with the sawzall the bottom half of the cut is already made, but there's still enough meat left in the plate to hold the wall straight as you lift it, etc.
David,I still don't see any reason why anyone runs the shoe through the openings and cuts them out later. Even when I framed facenailing and sheathing walls before standing up, I never ran the shoe through. There is no reason at all to do this. Leaving the shoe out at every single opening and raising walls whether you frame facenailing or toenail will never effect anything, the walls will not move and stay straight. Just tack a nail on each side of the opening.Joe Carola
Edited 11/14/2009 2:57 pm ET by Framer
It all depends on what system of framing and lay out that you use. I rarely snapped many lines when I framed interior partitions. Of course, I'd snap the long main one but often, after that, I really didn't need any/many more. So, assuming that I was framing a 12' partition with two door openings in it, I wanted the structural integrity of the bottom plate to be intact so that I could get it lined up properly without any fussing or measuring or line snapping. During my first decade of framing, I will admit to trying ALL the various methods including cutting out the plate first or cutting halfway through. About the only thing I never did was cut the plates out with a sawzall LOL! I did the "leave out the jack" once and found that to be extremely slow compared to our normal methods.
>> I rarely snapped many lines when I framed interior partitions. <<How do you nail the walls on the deck, you eyeball them?>> So, assuming that I was framing a 12' partition with two door openings in it, I wanted the structural integrity of the bottom plate to be intact so that I could get it lined up properly without any fussing or measuring or line snapping.<<Don't understand that whether you snap lines or not If the shoe is tacked into the decking, where can the wall go and how can you have a problem lining anything up?Are you talking about framing your interior walls on your table setup you do and raising them with a lift and lifting them onto the deck?Joe Carola
Joe, Do you do anything to prevent the little piece of sill at an opening near a wall from splitting? Sometimes only 4 1/2" and by the time studs and cripple are end nailed, and it is nailed to the floor, it needs some help.When I started I worked for a guy who left the door cripples out so he could nail the plates straight down under the door cripple. We cut it out with the skill saw and then toe nailed the cripples in.John
John,I try to avoid those little 3" or 4-1/2" blocks. I will run the perpendicular shoe past to make that depending how the doors layout. When there is a doorway perp off a long wall and I'm coming in 3" from that wall(King and Jack stud) I will cut a shoe at 6-1/2" and run that shoe through the perp wall. If I ever have a situation where I didn't do that, I through a scarp block down roughly 12" or so and nail that to the deck and once the walls are up before we put the jacks in I cut the shoe out at the RO mark. That eliminates the split for some reason. Joe Carola
"Do you do anything to prevent the little piece of sill at an opening near a wall from splitting? Sometimes only 4 1/2" and by the time studs and cripple are end nailed, and it is nailed to the floor, it needs some help."
I've given up on bottom plates in those situations. If the wall is 3" or 4 1/2" just build it up out of longer studs.
Our different techniques certainly are apparent here. I have rarely nailed a sole plate down to a deck without it already having all the studs attached to it. I've seen pictures of guys nailing the plates down to the deck before they were framed and I always wondered...."WHY?". I'm sure it has something to do with who taught us. Let me answer your first question: "How do you nail the walls on the deck, you eyeball them?" Sorta. When I framed, I was blessed with having lots of great framing stock. So, when I grabbed a set of plates, I'd always eyeball the stock to make sure it was reasonably straight. Most of it was either straight or had a slight crown. So, when I laid the plates out, I'd know that the bottom plate was either straight, or had a slight crown. Assuming that I framed the partition with the crowned piece on the bottom, I'd simply raise it up, then nail the ends exactly where they needed to be. I'd then push the middle of the bottom that 1/8" that I knew it needed to be straight and nail it to the deck. Forgive me if it wasn't within the 1/64th tolerance that ya'll are used to working too....For the most part, the bottoms were straight and didnt' need any pushing. After snapping lines for 20 years, I began to realize that I was wasting a whole lot of chalk and also wasting a whole lot of time and thats when I stopped snapping them. The majority of the partions are too small to bend anyways....such as 4'er and the many 2'ers (closets). I always found a use for all the door cutouts too when I framed interior partitions. I'd always stock them on my work station (I always kept a set of horses with a 4' x 4' ply handy) and either use them for buck blocks or cut them into 10" top cripples. When I'd look back after framing interior partitions all day, all I'd see is 6" chunks and smaller left lying around.
You
>>> So, assuming that I was framing a 12' partition with two door openings in it, I wanted the structural integrity of the bottom plate to be intact so that I could get it lined up properly without any fussing or measuring or line snapping.<<Me
>>Don't understand that whether you snap lines or not If the shoe is tacked into the decking, where can the wall go and how can you have a problem lining anything up?<<You
>Assuming that I framed the partition with the crowned piece on the bottom, I'd simply raise it up, then nail the ends exactly where they needed to be. I'd then push the middle of the bottom that 1/8" that I knew it needed to be straight and nail it to the deck.<<Jim,Still don't see the need to run the shoe through the door opening when you tack the shoe anyway. Is it because your wasting a tacked nail on each side of the opening?>>Forgive me if it wasn't within the 1/64th tolerance that ya'll are used to working too....<<From a guy admitting he doesn't snap lines and eyeballs the walls when he nails them. Thats' probably why you have to run your shoe through the openings because you eyeball.Joe Carola
Edited 11/14/2009 4:38 pm ET by Framer
joe... i remember now... yiou nail your shoe to the subfloor, then toe your studs
we frame on the deck , then pick the wall up Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jim, you crack me up... sledging poorly laid plates around after tile and hardwood are in is always the manly option... just bang it!http://www.tvwsolar.com
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Actually, I've never really trimmed in a new house after tile and hardwood was laid. So, when a minor adjustment of a wall comes up, I see it the same with drywall as I do when I'm framing: if a 20 oz hammer and toenail won't move it, a sledge will. I think it's all in our perspective. A trimmer sees a wall as a finished product: studs, plates and drywall already attached. I, a framer, sees that same wall as nothing more than a few studs and plates....the drywall is meaningless to me if something needs tweaking.
>>we frame on the deck , then pick the wall up<<Mike,I know that. Read my posts above, I framed the way you did and still stopped all the shoes at the door openings with a tacked nail on each side. The wall goes nowhere when you frame that way.Joe Carola
"There is no reason at all to do this"As long as the trim carpenter carries a sledge..you're good to go
Barry E-Remodeler
Any trim carpenter worth his salt will carry a sledge in his arsenal. The ones that don't are always crying about how sloppy the rough frame was. Some guys get the job done, other cry about it.
Exactly. The response was to say maybe there's a reason many framers need to carry the plate thru then cutDidn't mind having to do an adjustment once in a while. It's when you're having to adjust half the doors in the house, cutting off the excess drywall and deal with the twisted trimmers that it starts eating into the profitplus..never saw a trade that didn't "cry" at least a little about the last trade out the door. including framers
Barry E-Remodeler
I am a trim carpenter. I used to carry a sledge hammer until I started following better framers. Haven't needed a sledge hammer in years. LOL!
I've only trimmed a few houses in my days and I didnt' have the luxury of deciding who the framers were. With that said, it shouldn't come as a surprise that sometimes walls get moved after the "good" framers leave. I once was called back to a house because the superintendent wanted to chew me out for a parapet wall that was leaning 1/2" out of plumb. I reminded him that the owner, a retired carpenter, had went through the house with a fine tooth comb. I know for a fact that the parapet wall was plumb when I left and it was no easy task to realign it due to the superior method in which it was originally fastened. You are aware that two guys humping two 16' drywall boards could potentially ram a wall out of alignment? I've often used heavy objects such as sheets of plywwood or linear platestock as rams to move walls and plates.
>.As long as the trim carpenter carries a sledge..you're good to go<<If he carries a sledge that means the shoes weren't nailed on the chalkline at the rough openings. Still no reason to run the shoe through any door openings.
Joe Carola
If all framers cared about their work as much as you and some like you..I'd say it works greatFor all the other framers, that fat chalk line leaves a lot of room for interpretation..usuallyleading to crossed legs or tight RO's
Barry E-Remodeler
Nothing like a nice 10 pound trim hammer to straighten things out. SOP
yep, but when it's consistent time to get the builder to pay me more to fix them or pay the framer more to do it to better tolerances
Barry E-Remodeler
I have a collection of trim hammers, from 16 ozs to 16 lbs.
Trim Hammer's; The bigger the head, the longer the handle.
"There is no reason at all to do this"Maybe not with your method of framing, Joe.But with some, it helps keep walls all parallel with each other
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>>But with some, it helps keep walls all parallel with each other<<Piffin,If you read my post, I said even when I framed facenailing and sheathing walls on the deck before raising, stopping the shoe at the opening and tacking it on each side of the opening, the shoe does not move one bit therefore everything stays parallel. How can a wall with the shoe being tacked without the shoe running through the opening move or not keep the walls parallel like your saying?Joe Carola
when your top and bottom plates are both same length, whatever butts them is always same distance apart, top and bottom.
If you already have the door sole cut out, you can lose up to half an inch there thru human error.
Well, some crews can - I know you can't;)
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>>when your top and bottom plates are both same length, whatever butts them is always same distance apart, top and bottom.
If you already have the door sole cut out, you can lose up to half an inch there thru human error.
Well, some crews can - I know you can't<<That's if people sit there and measure and cut there top and bottom plates the same size. I never do that. The walls are all snapped and every single door opening is mark. I go around with 16' 2x4's and start the shoe at the openings or where ever I want. Once the shoe is nailed off, you will see every single wall and door opening space.Now the first of the two top plates get tacked to the shoe. No measuring at all because the shoe is the pattern to follow. Can't possibly make a mistake because you cutting the top plate to match the length of the wall.The first of the w=two top plates go right over the door openings so we can properly lap the walls. The two top plates follow the nailed off shoe that is nailed on all chalklines.Joe Carola
That's why I mentioned the diff in your system and some other ways.
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Piffin,Do you measure ever plate, or do you follow the chalklines and cut to the chalklines?Joe Carola
both - that is one and the same for me.
Why?
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>>both - that is one and the same for me.
Why? <<Because if you do it the way I do it and follow the snapped lines, you can't make a mistake with the length, especially 1/2" like you said. If someone cuts the plates whether they be on a set of horses or on the deck, they can mark the plate 1/2" or whatever wrong.Joe Carola
I'm with you on that.It's what I call "No-Thought Insurance." It's not as though someone isn't going to have to make those cuts at some time, so why not me?. If I have to cut out the plates myself, I'll know that the R.O. probably measures the same top and bottom, and that the wall is pretty much in plane. Sure, I'll have a framing hammer in my kit, but I'll know that I don't need to drag along the sledge.AitchKay
Joe,
I can't tell you how many time a door opening gets moved or enlarged or made smaller during our projects. Leaving the plate allows that to happen relatively easily.
Other than that-no reason.
Bruce
>>I can't tell you how many time a door opening gets moved or enlarged or made smaller during our projects. Leaving the plate allows that to happen relatively easily.<<That happens many times. But it's an after thought or a change. Adding a a plate is no big deal either. I can't see running the shoe through every single door opening for the "What ifs".Joe Carola
I guess I really never thought about it that much. I do know adding a four to six inch scrap to move a door opening is a pain as those pieces always split.
It really does not take that long to wack out those pieces. Plus I like the lake effect you get in each room when it rains.
I'm sorry Joe, I just never thought of it as a big issue and the cutoffs are used up as blocking in a heartbeat.
I definitely see your point, but we always have lots of what-ifs and it makes it easier.
Bruce
>> I guess I really never thought about it that much. <<I never think about it much when I read a thread like this asking what way to make it easier to cut them, when you don't have to worry about cutting anything if you don't run the shoe through.>> I do know adding a four to six inch scrap to move a door opening is a pain as those pieces always split. <<They don't always split for me. Like I said above, you run a longer piece and then nail it in and cut it because it won't split that way. Trust me, I've done it a million times. Cutting a 6" piece and nailing can split.>>It really does not take that long to wack out those pieces.<<I know it doesn't take that long, but if you have to cut out 20 openings for no reason that's time wasted right there for me.>>I'm sorry Joe, I just never thought of it as a big issue and the cutoffs are used up as blocking in a heartbeat.<<For me it's not an issue at all. For the OP it is.Joe Carola
dave... <<<<
turn it over before nailing studs and run your skilsaw thru at each end of the opening, set for 3/4" deep. When you come back later with the sawzall the bottom half of the cut is already made, but there's still enough meat left in the plate to hold the wall straight as you lift it, etc.>>>>>
that's the way i've always done it
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I like leaving the plate in the door opening awhile so I can trip over it a few times. It's so much nicer after you've cut it out... sorta like when you stop banging your head against the wall.
Jamb saw.
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don't put the door jack studs in when platform framing.
After wall is up, use circ saw with depth of blade set. The shoe on most saws places the bade just 1-1/2" from the edge, so you can zip the sole plates right off, then set the jacks
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At about 7 seconds per cut, I use sawzall all the way to the subfloor. I mount the sawzall blade backwards so it can run nearly parallel to the floor without having to worry about the tip of the blade digging in, or bouncing back. Walls on either side of the door stay planar and the hand saw stays in the truck. So what if the subfloor gets a little nick.
Having started this thread (and yes, I also put my sawzall blade on upside down for this cut), I'm amused yet again at the variety of techniques used around the country. Some young macho framers always scoff at any methods unlike what they learned two weeks ago. Framing in Colorado and Georgia in the 70's, and now back in Colorado in the 00's, I've seen plenty of variety in techniques that get the same end result. People looked at me like I was nuts recently fully sheathing some 44' walls on the ground, and lifting them with my Tranzporter wall jacks (saves my 60-year-old back).
I'll probably keep running my plates all the way, perhaps remembering to make that partial bottom cut for easier cutout later (after I've tripped over them a few times, of course!)
I always cut all the door plates out as soon as I fastened the walls to the deck....after all, the saw is right there and so am I...why would I walk away and do something else before that partition was finished? Also, I need the door cutout for the next blocks or cripples.
I don't do a lot of framing; adding interior walls like clesets and such is about it. Because most of what I do requires the wall to be built in place, I nail down the top and sole plates, build the wall, then have found that the Fein MM to be the perfect tool to remove the door plate. With the biggest blade available, it will just cut thru the 2x.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Joe,Like Mike Smith said.I also flip the bottom plate over and cut halfway though the sole plate. I leave them in to trip over and let the trim guys (usually me/us) to cut out with no damage to subfloor.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Steven,Read my post to Mike. I've framed your way and never ran the shoe through.Joe Carola
Here some framers have found multiple uses for their chainsaw - this one is perfect. Good operator shouldn't leave much mark on the floor.
Yeah, but if he's allergic to sawdust and sneezes ...
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Mostly, I use my sawsall the sameway. When I remember (usually I'm just laying out for crews) after the wall is framed and before the sheeting goes on I run a skillsaw full depth through the bottom plate on edge parallel with the trimmer. It leaves minimum left to cut with sawsall.
This is the only way I've done it.
Me, I've found it's a lot less work if the blade's spinning.AitchKay
Use a 6" blade and put it in the saw-all backwards so you are cutting with the top of the saw-all facing down instead of up. It will help you to get the saw level to the floor.
But the simple truth is it doesn't matter much if you cut into the sub-floor a bit.
I've always run the plates through and cut them out later.
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Can someone answer my question that I've asked several times already? Why would you run the plates through the doorway no matter which way you frame? I've had some here say that doing this holds the plates in place. This is no true because no matter which way you frame, leaving the openings out, the shoe gets tacked on each side of the opening so the shoe can't move when lifting. Can anyone give me a good reason to run the shoe through and cut out later?Joe Carola
would it do any good?there are answers if you read the posts
just not ones you will accept
Edited 11/16/2009 10:36 am by BarryE
>>would it do any good? <<Yes, it would.>>there are answers if you read the posts <<Where? If I missed them, my apologies.>>just not ones you will accept <<I'll accept one that makes sense to me because I'm always willing to learn something new, or try something new. Are you willing to try something new, like leaving out the plates in doorways?Why are you like a gnat in someone's ear. You always have something to say to me. Did I hurt your feelings somewhere? Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 10:52 am ET by Framer
I think you have me confused with someone that has a feeling for youget a gripI said why I run the plates thru, as did piffin and othersAccept it or not and stop whining about your flea problem
Put it the other way, tell me a good reason not to run them through? to me it takes less time on layout, you should be able to cut it out with a sawsall in little time without hacking up the floor and it keeps things in line.
Edited 11/16/2009 11:10 am by BarryE
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>>I said why I run the plates thru, as did piffin and others <<
What were they?>>Put it the other way, tell me a good reason not to run them through?<<Because there's no reason to run them through and cut later when you can stop them right at the opening. It's that simple like I've said many times. Why cut plates out on both sides of an opening especially with a sawzall?>>to me it takes less time on layout,<<How would you know, you never tried it. Instead of just trying to go against what I'm saying, try it first and see. I know because I did. Are you open minded and willing to try something different? >>you should be able to cut it out with a sawsall in little time without hacking up the floor and it keeps things in line.m <<Another one with the "it keeps things in line excuse". If you read what I said a thousand times maybe you might comprehend. How can things not be in line when not running the plates through at all openings and tacking them? Where can the plates go when tacked in? How can they be out of line?Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 11:21 am ET by Framer
Where can the plates go when tacked in>>>>>>>>
Interior walls are not tacked to the line. In my case most of the interior walls are built on the first floor while the second floor joists and plywood are being installed.
Large crew, no need for all to lay plywood.
Yes it helps keep the wall together when you do it in one piece. I understand what you are saying, just not real pratical in my application.
>>Interior walls are not tacked to the line. In my case most of the interior walls are built on the first floor while the second floor joists and plywood are being installed. <<Do you facenail and sheath walls before raising them? How do you frame your interior walls if they are not tacked on the line when raising? Do you just pick a spot on the deck and facenail and then lift and slide into place? If so, I've never heard that before. I can see why not leaving out plates would make sense.>>Yes it helps keep the wall together when you do it in one piece. I understand what you are saying, just not real pratical in my application.<<I worked on a pre-fab house years ago where all the walls came built and they were lifted in place with a crane. All the plates ran through which made sense. That way and what you do leaving the doorways out the walls would be all over the place. Thank you for telling me you way of framing. It makes perfect sense.Joe Carola
Do you just pick a spot on the deck and facenail and then lift and slide into place? If so, I've never heard that before. I can see why not leaving out plates would make sense.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Precisely!
We have found that with a crew of 7-9 people it makes sense.
Exterior walls are tacked down in place and facenailed and sheathed. It's a matter of manpower and effective use of them.
Do you lap all your top plates interior and exterior? If so, do you nail the top plates on your interior walls before you raise them? Joe Carola
Top plates we call doubles. Except for the little walls, we do it while the walls are standing.
Yes we lap the doubles exteriors and interiors. Sometines it looks ackward, but when we put the interiors up, we then plum and brace and straighten the exteriors. Then the interiors. One person jumps up and measures for the top plates and another cuts. Another nails up behind them.
I know it sounds like it may take more time, it really doesn't.
Key is to have the same person read the level and eye the walls.
>> Sometines it looks ackward, but when we put the interiors up, we then plum and brace and straighten the exteriors. Then the interiors. <<That's what I do.after every wall is up. >> One person jumps up and measures for the top plates and another cuts. Another nails up behind them. <<The way we do it all the top plates are lapped. The top plate gets nailed to he plate underneath when we're doing shoes and plates. The first of the two top plates are tacked into the nailed down shoe. Once all the shoes and plates are done we pull the tacks out of the top plates and pull them back and frame. All the outside wall are framed first and the inside walls already have the laps done, so when standing up the walls we lift the top plate over the outside wall that has the space there already to accept the lap.>> Key is to have the same person read the level and eye the walls. <<I was taught to sight the walls back in the day where my eye were still good. You'd be surprised how good the eye can sight. When I started my own business I let a few good guys sight and they were terrible. That's when I started stringing a mason line around the perimeter on top of a piece of 5/4 blocks. Takes a few minutes to do. Now after the walls are up they are pushed or pulled in use a 3' piece of 5/4 until it just slightly touches the mason line.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 5:11 pm ET by Framer
terrible. That's when I started stringing a mason line around the perimeter on top of a piece of 5/4 blocks. Takes a few minutes to do. Now after the walls are up they are pushed or pulled in use a 3' piece of 5/4 until it just slightly touches the mason line>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I work ed as a forman for a company with 3 crews. Only the forman were allowed to site, even then we pulled the string out on the real long walls.
Had a group of garages for an apt. complex, 250+- long. Shoot with my eyes I could barely see the other end!
>> I work ed as a forman for a company with 3 crews. Only the forman were allowed to site, even then we pulled the string out on the real long walls.<<My first boss always sighted the walls and then I came a long and asked him if I could because I would never learn how to do it. I asked him to sight the wall and then I looked at what he did and that made me see what was acceptable. I guess as the years had gone by the blue eyes weren't so good anymore...........it was the sun, not the age......;-)Joe Carola
It absolutely takes more time. A lot more time.
Got to step in here. I agree w/ some of the other posts. I recall that I never necessarily tacked the bottom plate before raising (exterior walls exception). Sometimes I'd just build the wall whereever it was convenient and the raise it and move it in place ... to the chalk line. The continuous bottom plate guarantees the door opening is exactly where it needs to be and prevents the splitting if the door is say w/in 6" of the end. Either way the cuts have to be done. Cut the plate before you frame or cut it after it's in place. Frankly making 4 cuts all different lengths before is more risky of a mistake than making two equal length cuts and KNOWING they are exactly the same length w/out doing the math of ... well this block is the total length minus the door minus the other block, etc. That is why I would run the shoe through and why I think it is my best choice.
The two techniques are interesting, though.
>> Got to step in here. I agree w/ some of the other posts. I recall that I never necessarily tacked the bottom plate before raising (exterior walls exception). Sometimes I'd just build the wall whereever it was convenient and the raise it and move it in place ... to the chalk line.<<That is what I'm glad to here because I never new people did that. Like I said before doing that makes perfect sense to run the plate through the openings because it does hold everything together when slidng/lifting a wall into place. >>The continuous bottom plate guarantees the door opening is exactly where it needs to be and prevents the splitting if the door is say w/in 6" of the end.<<The way I do it the pieces don't split.I will run a drop off picee and nail it to the deck and then cut it off on the chalkine or the rough opening mark.>> Frankly making 4 cuts all different lengths before is more risky of a mistake than making two equal length cuts and KNOWING they are exactly the same length w/out doing the math of ... well this block is the total length minus the door minus the other block, etc.<<That can't happen the way I do it because I'm not using a tape to measure anything or any math by deducting anything like you said. The shoe gets nailed at the rough opening and cut off at the end of the wall. No tapes. After all the shoes are down the second plate (which is the first of the two top plates) lays across the entire length of the wall tacking one end flush to the outside of the shoe, the other end gets cut by running the saw blade across the shoe as a guide. No tapes and the second plate is the exact same length as the shoe outside to oust of the wall. It;s impossible to make the plate a different length because your using the shoe total length as the guide.>> That is why I would run the shoe through and why I think it is my best choice. <<Yes, for you it is your best choice because it sounds like you measure your plates and use a sqaure to cut the plates.I don't use a square to cut the plates, running the blade along side the shoe is the guyide to cut the plates.>> The two techniques are interesting, though. <<Amen to that!!
Joe Carola
I've always toenailed and nail the bottom plate down with door openings cut out. You can avoid shoe plate joints by working the wood to the openings. i assume you could have your joints in an un-cut door opening if you deck build but that really defeats the purpose. I've framed both ways, toenailing and sheathing afterwards is so much faster and less heavy stuff to lift. Myself and a helper have lifted 40 foot walls, might have left some headers out, but it is pretty easy.
"'ll accept one that makes sense to me because I'm always willing to learn something new, or try something new. Are you willing to try something new, like leaving out the plates in doorways?"I did a lot of that in the early 80's. It's much too slow depending on which style framing you do. I would never "tack" anything. Tacks are temporary and a waste of time. I "nail" both sides of the doorway, then cut them out. If I had to frame a job of interior partitions and the bottom plates were stuck to the deck, I'd either rip them all up or leave and find another job. There is no way I'd frame like that.
I think the guys who frame the whole wall on the deck have a different perspective from you who I think nails the shoe down and toe nails the studs. I know if you have a long wall with multiple openings it is easier to have the whole shoe tied together when lifting and shifting it around.I do use the short block method on closets and doors between walls which has baffled some guys.John
>> I think the guys who frame the whole wall on the deck have a different perspective from you who I think nails the shoe down and toe nails the studs. I know if you have a long wall with multiple openings it is easier to have the whole shoe tied together when lifting and shifting it around.John,I framed the way they do. They tack the shoe on edge on the chalkline where I nail the shoe down flat. It still doesn't make a difference when your raising the walls the way they do because when I did it their way I tacked the shoe down on each side of the opening. When raising the walls their way, the shoe doesn't move. If I've never framed this way I wouldn't be asking this question.When I did frame this way, we were taught by the framers in Cape Cod to run the plates through the openings. My boss and myself both quickly changed that because the plates would not go anywhere and maybe because we were used to leaving the openings out the way we framed. So basically we combined their techniques and our technique together and it worked.I think that some people who haven't framed both ways will not even try something different. I've had guys here tell me you can't lift walls the way I do without the bottom of the studs being nailed to the shoe, the walls would fall or be all over the place. I can see that, but it's just not true. If they have ever seen it done, it would make sense.Joe Carola
"They tack the shoe on edge on the chalkline"Really?
How do you know?I do that with most exterior walls, but not all of them, and rarely do it with partition walls.
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>>"They tack the shoe on edge on the chalkline"<<>>Really?
How do you know? <<Well, going from how everyone talks about how they facenail and the way I was taught how to facenail in Cape Cod, everyone tacks their shoe in place on edge.>> I do that with most exterior walls, but not all of them, and rarely do it with partition walls.n << Now reading how Framer52 frames and what you just said about interior walls, that changes things. Did you or anyone ever mention that part before? If so, my bad because I don't ever recall reading this way of framing. This way makes perfect sense to run the plates through.Joe Carola
The only walls that needed to be "tacked" down were the outside walls when we preframed. That meant that the only plates that needed to be cut out were the doors....not the windows. My interpretation of this thread is that it is about interior partion doorways of which there are many and the speed at which you get it done is significant. We never tacked down our interior partitions because it was generally much more easier to move them into comfortable framing space to effectively (timewise) get them done.
>> My interpretation of this thread is that it is about interior partion doorways of which there are many and the speed at which you get it done is significant. We never tacked down our interior partitions because it was generally much more easier to move them into comfortable framing space to effectively (timewise) get them done. <<That's what I wanted to hear. You basically are framing the way Framer52 does and lifting/sliding your walls into place by framing in a different area. This like I said top frammer52 and Piffin makes perfect sense to run the shoe through. No one has said that before. I thought that you framed your walls on your work table and lifted them into place. That makes prefect sens also running the plates through.This is now a third way to frame compared to the way I frame and others frame tacking the shoe on edge and facnailing. Like I've been saying tacking the shoe on edge running the plates through and facenailing, there's no need to do that because I've frame both ways. If I framed the interior walls like you and Frammer52, I would do exactly what you guys do and run the plates through.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 1:54 pm ET by Framer
I'd love to elaborate more on how I framed interior pars but it would require lots of time and pics...I have neither.
I remember you doing that thread with your work station. I thought is was with outside walls. I forgot what thread that was. I think it was about 3 years ago. When I did that prefab house, I can't remember if the top plates were on already and if we just butted the them together with perpendicular walls, or if the came with a piece missing and gave us the pieces to lap the plates.Joe Carola
Yes, we framed all our our outside walls on the table. While I was building the outside walls, the interior partitions were being framed on the deck, just like we always did them. Those guys snapped a whole lot more lines than I ever did for their partitions. If an interior partition is 5' long, do you really need a line snapped for it? 6'? 8'? 12'?
>> If an interior partition is 5' long <<Not for 5'...........yes for 5'1" wall.............;-)The way I do it all the lines get snapped and then the shoe gets nailed to the lines. As I snap the next guy nails plates. Then the first of the two top plates get tacked and and then the top plates gets nailed in and everything gets properly lapped. It's faster that way to snap all lines whether the wall is 3' or 16'.Joe Carola
If an interior partition is 5' long, do you really need a line snapped for it? 6'? 8'? 12'>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Our rule of thumb was everything over 8' needed to be chalklined!>G<Under, 2 points and nail it down!
My rule of thumb is 16' unless I have 18' linear stock. I don't use junk on the bottom either. If I find that I have to use something with an s curve, I might snap...or meausure a parallel.
This method of communicating ideas can be difficult as you previously pointed out that another poster simply wasn't explaining himself very well. And that may very well have been true. I never thought we weren't talking about interior partitions as I think many of the other posters would agree ... so somewhere you missed something that many of us did get. No big deal, just underscores the awkwardness of writing about something most of us are most used to showing how it's done, not writing about how we just did it.
Explaining bits and pieces here and there can fragment the conversation to a point where the point is lost or distorted and difficult to follow. Writing is often not a builder's strong suit, so we all have to have a bit of patience. It is also can be difficult to discerne tone ... cutting sarcasm or simply gentle ribbing.
You are correct John. Even though we pre-framed everything before standing, I was always keen on stick framing small partitions that sometimes required "creative" methods. I've been known to nail the studs directly to the floor and triple plate the top...then block in between the studs. I've done that and about 100 other "creative" methods. One thing I never did was run ALL the plates on the deck and nail them down before the studs were attached. Yes...on a case by case basis that made sense...
already answered that.
You are wrong when you say there is no good reason. We each have our various reasons for doing what we do. Not trying to convince you to do it my way, but quit trying to say it is wrong when it is only different.But if you wanna have a pissin match, you have been framing totally wrong all these yearsSo there.;)
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>>already answered that.<<Tell me again please.>>You are wrong when you say there is no good reason.,, >> but quit trying to say it is wrong when it is only different.<<Where did I say it was wrong? If I did, I'm an idiot. I shouldn't say another way of framing is wrong. Tell me where I said it was wrong. Just hearing that running plates through keep the walls in line doesn't make sense. That's all.Joe Carola
no I'm not going to tell you again.
I'd rather you waste your time reading the thread again than for me to waste my time writing the same thing again.but I can see where part of your mental block is coming from. You THINK you know how I work, but your description of it is not accurate. Frammer explained pretty well about framing loose on a deck with no need to tack to any line.
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>> no I'm not going to tell you again.
I'd rather you waste your time reading the thread again than for me to waste my time writing the same thing again. <<I read what you wrote and you never mentioned anything about the way Frammer52 frames. Your post #13 talks about keeping walls parallel which again I said when tacking the shoe they won't move. You never mentioned that you build the walls in a separate place and you don't tack the shoe. If you did, I'm sorry.Your post #19 You talk about cutting top and bottom plates the same size and loosing up to 1/2" somehow. You never mentioned that you build the walls in a separate place and you don't tack the shoe.Only til now you mention that you frame like frammer52.>>but I can see where part of your mental block is coming from. You THINK you know how I work,<<I don't think I know how you work. You just didn't explain it. If you told me that you don't tack your plates down and frame the walls like frammer52 does, I would have agreed with you about running plates through. >>but your description of it is not accurate. Frammer explained pretty well about framing loose on a deck with no need to tack to any line.<<He explained well, you didn't.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 12:25 pm ET by Framer
Can someone answer my question that I've asked several times already? Why would you run the plates through the doorway no matter which way you frame? I've had some here say that doing this holds the plates in place. This is no true because no matter which way you frame, leaving the openings out, the shoe gets tacked on each side of the opening so the shoe can't move when lifting.
Can anyone give me a good reason to run the shoe through and cut out later?
I'm man enough to answer :-)
It makes the wall easier to lift for me and it stays nice and stiff. I don' t like lifting walls with the studs loose or if there isn't a solid plate. Does it really matter? Nope, just my preference.
But I might try it your way, cuz I'm afraid of you and little Joey :-)
Also we frame a lot of walls before we lift them, so having a solid wall is easier to move around. We'll frame as many walls as we can before we lift them. Sometimes we'll do smaller walls first and lean then up out of the way and then all at once put the puzzle together.
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From a brief look, I believe you'd do "edit album properties" and set the album to "public".
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
>>It makes the wall easier to lift for me and it stays nice and stiff. I don' t like lifting walls with the studs loose or if there isn't a solid plate. <<The studs won't be loose because there all nailed in at the bottom. Your plate is still solid at the top and the bottom at the door opening has a nail tacked on both sides, so that doesn't move either.>>But I might try it your way, cuz I'm afraid of you and little Joey :-) <<Go for it. I'll even bring Joey up there to lift the wall for you....;-)He's a whopping 70lbs this year..........>>Also we frame a lot of walls before we lift them, so having a solid wall is easier to move around. We'll frame as many walls as we can before we lift them. <<See, this is a first I'm hearing about this between you, Frammer52 and Jim/blue. This makes sense running the plates through. When I framed in Cape Cod we didn't do that, nor did the other framers do that. All shoes were tacked on edge and they ran the plates through the openings. I though everyone who facenails does this. Today is the first time I'm hearing about this. Glad to hear it.Do you think that Pineapple Clems does this.........;-) That kid needs a beaten.........Joe Carola
I guess if I went back and reread all your entries you might have answered the same question all ready, but why don't you leave the sill plates in? I seems like more work and slower process frankly.
When we snap lines we simply snap the walls, don't mark door openings or such.
When we plate we have a pile top and bottom plates tacked at one end that we spread around, cutting to length with a big foot using the snap lines as guides, no need for a tape. Usually front and back walls all the way through so we can build two sides of the house before we than lift two sides of house.
When we lay out we mark three sides of the plates for partitions and corners, then doors, windows, and bearing points, then studs(each wall complete before moving on.
Then we stack all the interiors out of the way and it's a$$es and elbows. Some of the guys will cut the door openings before they sheet by just running a full depth skill saw parrallel to the trimmer across the bottom plate on edge leaving the plate connect if some thing gets moved later, or easily cutout with a sawsall.
Speed on a job seems to come from doing the same action over and over until that process is done, than moving on to the next and doing it over and over untill it's done. The less a tape comes out when cutting, or a saw comes out when laying out, or the guy nailing setting his gun down to go grab a stud or piece of plywood, the faster the house goes up.
I guess my question is why not leave them in as they can be moved with ease and such. Even if I was just doing one wall at a time, what does your method save in time or materials?
>> I guess my question is why not leave them in as they can be moved with ease and such. Even if I was just doing one wall at a time, what does your method save in time or materials? <<Why would they need to be moved? My method has nothing to do with saving material either. We snap the lines, mark the door openings and slide the shoe to the openings and nail the shoe down permanently. Once the shoe is down we tack the first of the two top plates on the shoe setting up for the top plate and all the laps. All this is done without tapes just following the lines and joints the plates make.Once all the shoes and plates are down every thing gets marked. I snap lines across the top plate for all joists above. Since those marks are already on the top plate I use them to scribe the three plates on the sides for the studs, no tape. Shoe and top plates are done. I mark the top plates with the above all walls, toilets, tub drains above, beams, point loads.....etc.Now I walk buy the door opening where there is no plate and just take the framing square and hold it on the plate where I stopped it at the opening and mark the king and jack studs, no tape because the plate that I leave out is the guide.There is another thread on this where I posted the pictures of the plates. I'll see if I still have them.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 9:05 pm ET by Framer
> Why would they need to be moved?To get them out of the way so that other walls can be built, maybe?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
>> To get them out of the way so that other walls can be built, maybe? <<Dan,No, my shoes are nailed already. There not in the way of anything thing especially since they stop at all doorways. When we pull the top plates back we lay the plates on top of the other shoes and plates.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2009 9:08 pm ET by Framer
How do you build a nine-foot wall inside an eight-foot room?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
>> How do you build a nine-foot wall inside an eight-foot room? <<The outside walls are always framed first. If the inside wall is an 8' room you pull the top plate back and you can either lay it on top of the 8' wall plates that are tacked to the deck, or pull the 8'wall plates back. Either way doesn't make a difference. Now the outside wall is up and you can frame the 8' room inside wall with nothing in the way.Joe Carola
I basically do the same with top plating and the one thing I've yet to do is snap out my upper floor which I've heard others mention, sounds like a great idea. Seeing as I'm sitting on the front porch with rain hitting my right knee while I sneak a smoke and chip away at the key board I'll injest the rest of your process for later. I've always said if you just get real good at your system you will probably be as quick as the next guy no matter his system. Since we often time have guys doing other things during snapping and lay out and then jump up to hammer out the walls, doesn't having walls tacked to the floor gett int the way....catch your answere after the fams in bed...lol.
"I've always said if you just get real good at your system you will probably be as quick as the next guy no matter his system. "I'm confident that any time-study engineer could quickly refute that statement.
Yeah, but could he do it quickly?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I'm sure. There are definitely ways to save time in each movement ones body makes. I just know that when I hire a guy that knows a better way to do something there is usually nothing wong with his method, it's just not time/quality better enough to change our system. There are exceptions, mostly it's convincing guys that every move you make affects the time it takes to do repetitive actions...
"I snap lines across the top plate for all joists above."More redundency? We always installed the joist directly on top of the studs on the interior partitions...especially the main center partition. There was no reason to layout for the joists because we knew they landed on the studs...and the studs were already laid out 16" oc.
>>More redundency?We always installed the joist directly on top of the studs on the interior partitions...especially the main center partition. There was no reason to layout for the joists because we knew they landed on the studs...and the studs were already laid out 16" oc. <<Those lines being snapped from front to the back of the house was mainly for the stud layout. It just automatically marked the floor joists and every single wall for 16" centers for studs. Now you don't have to pull a tape out to mark 16" centers or use framing square to mark 16" centers by holding the square on the last mark to mark the next mark. How did you lay out your studs on your interior walls?Joe Carola
I use a tape. Did the wind ever blow the lines out of alignment when you were snapping all of them? How many guys does it take to snap those lines? Three? I'd be curious to run the numbers to see which method was faster. Since I hate line snapping, it would have to be significantly faster using your method before I'd start loading up my chalkbox.It is an interesting concept, but not one that I would embrace.
>> I use a tape. <<So that means for every single interior wall you have to use your tape and make a mark. I don't have to do that because the mark is already on every single wall. I've done what you do, but after snapping the lines for me it's quicker. You will never be able to compare until you try it.>>Did the wind ever blow the lines out of alignment when you were snapping all of them? <<No, If the was a strong wind I wait for it to stop just like snapping lines on the deck for plates.>>How many guys does it take to snap those lines? Three? <<Two>>I'd be curious to run the numbers to see which method was faster. Since I hate line snapping, it would have to be significantly faster using your method before I'd start loading up my chalkbox. <<What numbers can you run. Doing it would be the only way to give you an answer.>>It is an interesting concept, but not one that I would embrace.<<Then don't. Your mind is already made up. Old dog new tricks kind of thing..........I'm a little different than you when I here something new that does sound interesting, I will try it. If I don't like it I won't do it. I';m always looking to be more productive and willing to listen and try something new. I won't knock something until I try it. Not saying you are, but there are alot of people that will do that.If I did here something that I totally thought was insane and of no interest to me, I wouldn't try it at all.Joe Carola
Edited 11/17/2009 2:42 pm ET by Framer
On another point of framing, why do you use double mud sills?
>> On another point of framing, why do you use double mud sills? <<The plans are spec'd that way. I have seen a few that spec'd one.Joe Carola
Always wondered.
Here's a plan that spec's double sill.Joe Carola
Didn't doubt you, just can't figure out why.
I didn't post the picture because I thought you doubted me.I don't think there's a good reason why on new homes. On additions I think it's because when using the same size floor joists to match the existing joist they want to keep the same foundation height because 99% of the homes have a 4 sill.When using a taller joist for the addition, it doesn't matter. Eliminating one sill is not my decision because by the time I get there the foundation is laid out for double sill. If it were up to me now I wouldn't use 2 sills.Joe Carola
Edited 11/17/2009 4:47 pm ET by Framer
99% of the homes have a 4 sill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not here, hence the question!
we almost always use a double 2x6 pt mudsill...
the standard is 8' concrete forms.. if you dig a level hole the form guy can usually pour a 7'9" max wall on a footing
a 4" slab gives you 7'5" headroom... the double sill adds 3" to that so you get 7'8"... if you are cutting corners that 1.5" would get sacrificed, but in custom building the owners appreciate the extra 1 1/2"
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I wouldn't get too haughty with that "I'll try something and you won't remark." I've tried EVERYTHING at least once. So, the obvious question is: do you snap these lines both ways across the deck? If not, then I think we both can agree that your way wasn't superior, timewise, or else you knowingly waste time on every job...right? The other issue with your system becomes one of anality. I was once guilty of that and would lay out every partition and line up the studs on the 16" module...both ways (N and S, and E and W). The only need this satisfied was my perfectionist quota. It added nothing to the integrity of the house and often wasted materials. At some point in my career, I saw the light. I would love to prove that there is a significant waste of time and material in your system. Lets toss out a house design and we'll hash it out.
Edited 11/17/2009 2:51 pm ET by jimAKAblue
>>So, the obvious question is: do you snap these lines both ways across the deck? If not, then I think we both can agree that your way wasn't superior, timewise, or else you knowingly waste time on every job...right? <<Yes, I do snap both ways. I've said this before about doing this maybe not in this thread, but both ways. Why not? Never said my way is superior. It just works for me. You obviously think your way is always more superior that everyone else's.>>The other issue with your system becomes one of anality. I was once guilty of that and would lay out every partition and line up the studs on the 16" module...both ways (N and S, and E and W). The only need this satisfied was my perfectionist quota. It added nothing to the integrity of the house and often wasted materials. <<You call it anal, I call it laying out studs with chalklines and not using a tape. So they stack both ways, what difference does it make whether you do it on purpose or because you just want them to stack? How do you know if your wasting material by lining up studs or not lining up studs. Do you take the time out to see? Some house they have to stack both ways because the floor joists on some sections of the house run front to back and side to side.>>At some point in my career, I saw the light.<<A blue light?>>I would love to prove that there is a significant waste of time and material in your system. <<Doesn't surprise me at all. Go for it!!>> Lets toss out a house design and we'll hash it out.<<Nothing to hash out.Joe Carola
> Lets toss out a house design and we'll hash it out.<<"Nothing to hash out."Sorry for discussing this technique with you.
Lots of the framing techniques FHB has featured over the years have relied on chalk lines, which provides cold comfort to those of us in the PNW. Many of the houses I've framed never saw a dry subfloor until the roof went on.
126567.111 in reply to 126567.106
I still think doing one thing all the way saves time. It sounds to me like you plate and build outside walls before plating interiors. While I can see a plus to this if your dimensions have grown or such.
I plate the whole house at once and move on to the next job. We move plates out of the way to have a flat surface to nail our walls together.
Also, all plates end up exactly the same length with little effort, tacked at the end and cut together.
You must have to spend a moment measuring where door openings go while plating or snapping or how do you know where to remove door slug.
It seems that in your process you are changing jobs more often. Could be wrong, but seems like dropping two plates together and cutting on the snap line that both of us have to snap seems faster....
>> like you plate and build outside walls before plating interiors. <<No, I don't do that. Every single wall gets shoes and plates at the same time. The outside walls get marked first and then all inside walls get marked like I described in my last post. Once the first outside wall is marked it starts getting framed while the rest of the walls are being laid out.>>Also, all plates end up exactly the same length with little effort, tacked at the end and cut together. <<Mine end up the exact same length also with no effort because you cutting right on top of the plate underneath it that's following the lines. >>You must have to spend a moment measuring where door openings go while plating or snapping or how do you know where to remove door slug. <<I have a guy snapping lines, exterior first. After the exterior lines are snapped I start marking door and window rough openings either on the deck or the shoe because as soon as one line is snapped there;'s a guy nailing the shoe on it.Once all the interior walls are snapped, I mark all door openings right on the chalklines. After I get my openings snapped a guy nails a shoe right on the door opening mark, it's that simple.>>It seems that in your process you are changing jobs more often.<<Maybe the way I said it in the beginning. I'm not snapping lines, plating and laying everything out myself. Everyone has something to do.>> Could be wrong, but seems like dropping two plates together and cutting on the snap line that both of us have to snap seems faster....<<Not the way I do the shoe and plates because it would slow me down because we nail the shoe to the deck first and then that shoe is what we follow for the top plates and all lap joints.Here's a picture of the shoes and plates before raising.Joe Carola
"We move plates out of the way to have a flat surface to nail our walls together."Double handling anything is a significant time killer. I used to work with a foreman (in my early apprentice days) that liked to lay it all out before we started banging. That just never made any sense to me but I know a lot of guys do that.
I think alot has to do with ones system. Most of my framing was production though even when I went to custom before turning GC I still used the same methodology. Someone pointed out that with each additional member of a crew the effeciency level dropped. One really good carpenter may be able to work at a high level, say 100%. Add one at 90 and your overall is 95%. Add one at 80 and the group of 3 has dropped to 90%. That would be one kick a## crew and this market probably would make their wages impossible?
Part of controlling ones efficiency is putting forth tasks that match ones skill level. A young laborer can, with the right apptitude and training be very efficient at nailing off hardware and finishing shear nailing at corners and such.
While I didn't have true piece workers employed, I used the same concept. Where one might see ineffecientcy in moving plates, I found that one doing all the snapping, plating, layout while others are doing p-up, setting porch posts, cutting trimmers, crips and headers, whatever they are skilled/efficient at, made for a uncluttered fast process. When layour is complete, the wall crew (who may or may not be those guys doing p-up) can move up, stack all the interiors in the center and blow through some walls.
There are certain parts of the job that require more patient attention to detail and others where the imphasis is on speedy activities like nailing sheeting to a wall.
If I was working by myself or with one other guy, some of these other ideas make more sense, I wouldn't nessarily do things in this exact manner and I think alot of guys here wouldn't neccessarily want to be involved in this kind of operation. This is more the Ford factory process of framing, but it's efficient, clean, and undeniably productive. The reason slugs are left in is because in this kind of system I believe it to be inefficient to spend time messing around with them untill the wall's up. The most I would let my crew do is a quick saw cut while the walls laying flat, right along the trimmer. I wouldn't leave the trimmers out to cut with a saw later as that means someone has to return to a wall that should have been done already and finish it. I believe every block, beam, pocket should be in the wall when it goes up.
A laborer spending 15 minutes cutting out all the door slugs at once seems more efficent than a lead spending time laying out doors durring plating when he would be doing it anyway at lay out. Just seems like an extra step not needed.
I did both "production" and "custom". I was the same carpenter doing the same work...so I agree, there ain't any difference. I also agree with your crew organization analysis. During my career, I experimented with quite a few different "systems". Since I was very motivated to streamline processes and cut down time, I tried every conceivable system except "jungle framing". I found that your assessment is quite accurate. However......I also found that I was not happy in that system. For one thing, it tended to cause a slowdown of the development of the young fellers. So, at some point in my framing life, when I got tired of training recruits, I adopted a much more sophisticated approach. Instead of hiring newbies and expecting them to "work their way up the ladder", I hired them and expected them to perform just like a journeyman. Now, that might raise your eyebrows a bit...because how could a new young worker work like a journeyman? The answer is....they can...but they are just a bit slower. Sometimes a LOT slower...but their pay is lower too LOL! So, what did that really mean? It means that when Frank came on the job, as a new carpenter (every tool was brand-spanking) new, if he wanted to frame a wall, he would have to get the plans, layout the wall, carry the studs, frame it and have me inspect it. Of course, I would inspect the layout before he started framing it. The result? In less than one or two houses, I could develop a rookie framer capable of making intelligent decisions including door, window, stud, and overhang (frieze height, soffit height, and fascia height)layout. I found this to be the best system. It was much easier on me. I no longer had "unskilled" labor running around my jobs.
In one or two house you could train a rookie? Wow I have never had anyone who could pick up things that fast. I do mainly renovations so I guess maybe there is more to learn. My last guy just left a couple of months ago after about 2.5 years and he was just getting OK.
Renovations is a much different animal. We were doing new work: framing. All of it was custom stuff but in reality, it's just the same wall, day after day. Its not really that complicated and if you explain the entire wall to an intelligent person and then force him to regurgitate what he's learned by implementing it, he can learn very fast. The thing that can't be taught is experience and mechanical skills. Yes, he could layout a wall with all the windows and bucks (really....how hard is that?) but he couldn't finger nails LOL!
I like it. Can't critisize that one bit. During the recently imploded boom here in the Seattle area I grew too fast and imploded also. The one thing of growing too fast and not hiring and training guys up through ones system is a lot went south. I peaked at 70 framers and was down to none in about 6 months. A lot of reasons, but all stemming from mismangement.
Before that when I was wearing my bags every day I spent alot more time in training my guys. If I was teahcing them to use the speed square I explained while drawing it out what the pitch represented and such and you can tell alot about apptitude when you started explaining formulas and such to a greenhorn.
You can also tell alot about the teacher and I really do have a weird way of looking at things as past the basics of framing I was pretty self taught and I'm sure I would have benefitted myself from sticking with a crew like yours for longer than a year and then going out on my own. Learning curve anybody.
I love that method, allowing the horn to go at his own pace, figure out what he can and asking for help when he actually needs it rather than someone like me throw out way too much info for them to absorb.
Very cool.
I peaked at 25 guys and those days were dreadful...for my foreman LOL!
By then I wasn't out there much in the field but when I was there, it was distressing indeed because 18 of those guys were hired hands...not taught from within our system. I'll give you a hint...if you ever start teaching anyone again, don't let them have a "speedsquare" on the job. That is a sure learning disabler.
Probably true. I learned on one but math was about the only thing I excelled at in school, that and general under acheiving 101, and all the concepts came quick.
Now that I look back on it, the guy who taught me, knew all the tricks, and really sharp, threw up every morning,worthless untill he'd thrown back a couple at lunch did pretty much what you said. He realized in the first few weeks that I could read the plans, not too great of a jump from reading charts on a crab boat for 9 years, and really turned me loose.
But again, see your point for sure.
One of the normal tactics for old timers to use was to make the job seem unusually hard. They went out of their way to hide knowledge. Most of the foremen that I knew wouldn't let anyone look at the plans LOL. In fact, when new guys hired on that had a little experience, they were often shocked and scared to take time to read the plans. I finally made an executive order "NO one is allowed to start a wall without studying the wall, in planview and elevation, before he starts setting up the plates.". Our trade is filled with a unique bunch of fellows. in laymens terms, that would be horse's asses. Many have also underachieved, academically speaking but often, that was because of their work ethics, not their abilities. I myself only managed to weasel my way through Geometry I & II, which isn't any great feat but that basic knowledge served me well. I had many guys (hired hands) thank me for letting them build things....many of them never thought they would get a chance.One thing I might do different today would be to rotate the stair builders. After I taught Frank to build stairs (first house), I rarely built a set again. He needed to watch me build one set of circular stairs before he took over that task. It's actually a lot easier being a foreman if you have all competent people. It made it fun again. I was able to head to a corner and go to work without having to make the rounds.
It's funny talking about this stuff as it brings up my beginnings. The problem I found in this just past boom mentality was that speed became paramount, cost second and quality was a distant third. Seeing the potential, blinding my better sense after several years I finally agreed to do whole plats as the builders pretty much demanded it, didn't want to deal with several owners/bosses and all the sudden there just wasn't time to train people up(namely because I grew faster than I should have and let it get that way)
As I mentioned, I was fortunate to have an intelligent if flawed lead that was happy to share his knowledge (and his work load) The one thing he didn't want to take the time to teach was stairs. When I got my own crew I was in the same plat as him, my first set of stairs was radius, so I would run to the end of the culdesac, ask him a question and then run back till I had another question.
It seemed indeed that most of my seconds were never given the chance to learn stairs and were actually scared of them. It was funny to watch their expression as they learned how simple basic stairs were. I, personally found straight run stairs pretty boring and tedious so I was more than glad to pass on the knowledge.
Funny note. About three years ago I told a crewman I had never had to pull out a pair of stairs before. On that house, running in to do lay out and such did the math on the stairs, marked the landing and blew out of there to the next job. Got a call, they couldn't figure out why the horses wouldn't work. Of course I was one riser too low where I marked the landing...worse part, I did it again on the next floor up!
That's why I never freak on honest mistakes. If a guy cuts four feet off a big long glue lam, I patiently explain that they are expensive and if you are cutting more than 6 inches off you better re-check your measurements and then I pickup the phone and order another. If I freak on him, guaranteed I'll be reordering two more as I will invariably do the same thing in a duh moment...instant karma!
If I freak on him, guaranteed I'll be reordering two more as I will invariably do the same thing in a duh moment...instant karma!
Isn't that the truth!! I don't know if it's because you are so upset and can't think straight after one of those episodes or if you are being reminded that you too, are mortal, but it happens!!!!
"The problem I found in this just past boom mentality was that speed became paramount, cost second and quality was a distant third. "Interesting, my work is exactly the opposite of that order. It's just the nature of what it is. Restoration, repair and conservation is a different animal.Not a framer, although I have done my share of it, and I have been known to kiss the boots of a framer who turns out walls & roofs that are straight & square. Great thread guys.
" The problem I found in this just past boom mentality was that speed became paramount, cost second and quality was a distant third."Teaching speed is akin to walking a fine line. My favorite sayings was "Find the balance between quantity and quality." As we all know, in framing,perfectionism will drive you nuts unless you are willing to carve each piece of stock out of a log using hand planes. Everything will sized perfect and straight. That's not reality though, is it? The next core value that had to be learned was "It isn't done, until it's done right." So, no matter how fast someone got something done, the true test of when it was done, was after it was done right. Using those two core positions, I found that if we spent time early in the game getting things perfect, it was quite easy to continue the process at warp speed. The key to warp speed was getting everything perfect. Straight walls meant straight...not kinda straight. Plumb meant plumb, not "close enough". So, while I could teach and maintain those values and techniques one one crew, I found it impossible to get it done on others. I would imagine that there was some horribly sloppy work if I was running 250 men in a plat. I'd be making money on one crew and losing on the other 49.
In my experience in the engineering field, going too slow can destroy quality as easily as going too fast. There's usually an optimum area where the right amount of planning and "procedures" make everything flow smoothly and with good quality. Overload the system with planning/documentation/overthinking on one end, or by cutting corners and skipping steps on the other, and both quality and productivity go in the toilet.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I think that thought applies to many applications. I also disagree with the cute saying "Quantity, Quality and Price...pick any two". It all depends on how you define each and I KNOW I can deliver all three!
Yeah, gotta agree there. When you push schedule too much you often actually make it longer (especially if you count the time ticking off the "punch list", no matter what form it takes in your business). The trick is to hit the "sweet spot".Schedule problems are usually the result of poor planning and/or poor leadership. (Or, in my business, not having the foggiest idea what you're trying to do.)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Edited 11/22/2009 2:47 pm by DanH
"if you ever start teaching anyone again, don't let them have a "speedsquare" on the job."Boy, I gotta agree with that! A good shortcut tool, but a rafter square is your mainframe computer.AitchKay
I agree. I wouldn't mind the fellers carrying a speedsquare if they had already learned how to use the framing square to layout the stairs, rafters, slopes, overhangs, blocking etc. I found that if they learned how to use the framing square, none of them ever bothered to carry a speedsquare. One other thing that I never let anyone do: mark a square line on a 2x4. I explained to those that felt that they had to that if they would just cut 100 square cuts on a stud without a mark, they would never have to mark another one and they would all be square. I also followed that I would accept 99 poor cuts without bichhin.
"I also followed that I would accept 99 poor cuts without bichhin."Bingo!First rule of delegating is that they're not going to do it as well as you...AND THAT'S OK!Man, is that a hard rule to learn, or what?AitchKay
all......If you cut the plate out first , do you check the inside of the jack for plumb?
>> all......If you cut the plate out first , do you check the inside of the jack for plumb? <<What do you mean cut out the plate first? Joe Carola
He still doesn't get your way of framing>G<
I was thinking that he was talking about running the plates through and cutting out the plate before installing the jacks.If he's talking about me starting the plates at the openings, the jacks will be plumb because the shoe is nailed on the chalkline and at the rough opening. When the walls get plumbed and braced the jacks are plumb.Joe Carola
Edited 11/18/2009 9:40 am ET by Framer
Don't think he read the whole thread as you answered it earlier.
Framer.......I read all of these posts and still don't understand what I mean . If you cut the sole plate ( guess it could be called the threshold plate) of an interior door opening before setting the wall does anyone check the inside of the rough opening for plumb?
>> Framer.......I read all of these posts and still don't understand what I mean . If you cut the sole plate ( guess it could be called the threshold plate) of an interior door opening before setting the wall does anyone check the inside of the rough opening for plumb? <<What do you mean before setting the walls?The answer is yes,after the walls are raised plumbed and braced they are plumb both ways. I usually plumb the corners of the walls as my guide and then nail the braces. Checking the jacks for plumb left to right in the opening is checked sometimes out of curiosity, but once you plumb the corners every stud technically should be plumb. I don't check those.Joe Carola
Edited 11/18/2009 9:53 am ET by Framer
Framer..........It's suprising how two people one from Illinois and one from New Jersey frame a house alike . After reading a lot of your posts I wonder if we had the same teacher and figured the rest out on our own.
Now days I frame one house a year ,usually for the grand child of a of a client that I built thier house in the early 70's. The love of the work never dies and the hardest thing about it , I have found is getting out of the truck on a January morning.
Stay "fired up" and teach ........and inspect what you expect.....
Frank
Still love what I do and people say I'm nuts. They are the ones that complain about their job every day.Joe Carola
Can someone answer my question that I've asked several times already? Why would you run the plates through the doorway no matter which way you frame? ... Can anyone give me a good reason to run the shoe through and cut out later?
Joe, I'm a little short on time this morning and I'm jumping in here with another hundred posts in this thread still to read, so forgive me if anyone else has given the same answer. (I'll come back to this later tonight if my big birthday bash doesn't put me under the table for a week, LOL....)
I do it that way because it's easier and faster. It's easier, and quicker, to cut the sole plate out of the RO once it's nailed to the subfloor than it is to make up the sole plate in several pieces of different lengths. It takes me about three seconds each side to cut out the plate in the RO; my preferred method is to use a jamb saw riding flush to the jacks (and who gives a craap if I nick the subfloor a smidge. It's a subfloor, right?).
Okay, so if I have twenty doorways that's 40 cuts at 3 secs each, so a total of 120 seconds or two minutes. Double it for four minutes if you wanna be conservative. It'd take me five times that long at least to set up the plate stock on the CMS, measure and cut all the different lengths, then send them back to the chalkline.
Yeah I know, real framers use a 10" worm drive one handed while holding the 2x on their thigh, but we all know I ain't a real framer ;0)
I understand the points you've made, but for me, running the plates through saves time and trouble. Of course, all bets are off if I gotta build the wall in place instead of flat on the deck. If that's the case, I usually won't run the plate through.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You are 100 posts behind but certainly, if you are going to use the CMS, then it would be a huge waste of time. If you are remodeling and doing one frame per month, it hardly matters either way. Your jamb saw is the ticket. As you know, I've re-created my saw to be pseudo jamb saw. By far, that is the easiest answer.
Oh...I forgot...never, ever, ever ever lay the lumber across any part of your body to cut. That's a safety violation just like working a roof without ropes.
...never, ever, ever ever lay the lumber across any part of your body to cut.
Ya missed the smiley face on the end of that wisecrack, didja?
Damned thread sucked me in; I shoulda been at the bank an hour ago. Oh well....
Yeah, I bought a cheap jamb saw last year when I had to do an instant floor in a condo, and have since been discovering all the other things I can do with it. Cut out the lower section of a rotted verandah mullion wall that was dadoed and glued together; took about 15 seconds and saved the HO a thousand bucks. Handy little gizmo.
Oh, and the 12" CMS is my preferred method of cutting 2x stock to length 'cause it can handle up to 3 pieces of 2x at a time. Which makes it faster than even a 10" worm. Heh, heh.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"...and have since been discovering all the other things I can do with it. .... Handy little gizmo."You, more than anyone else on this site, can probably appreciate all the things I can do with my re-invented power saw because of your experiences with the jamb saw.
You, more than anyone else on this site, can probably appreciate all the things I can do with my re-invented power saw because of your experiences with the jamb saw.
Have you got a pic of that thing? I'm trying to imagine it but not having a lotta luck.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Its up there in this thread somewhere. It shows me cutting the door plate with it instead of a sawzall. I've said this before: If I had to choose only one A) remove the extended table or B) remove the guard, I'd choose A. There are so many reasons but I can't possibly explain them. Of course I choos C)all of the above.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
"Oh...I forgot...never, ever, ever ever lay the lumber across any part of your body to cut."
I frequently cut lumber by dropping it into the cleft of my ankle with the toe of my boot lifted several inches. Bend down, make the cut, drop the saw and flick your foot. The stud ends up in your hand and away you go.
I'm not bringing my Trojan sawhorses to the jobsite any more because people always want to paint on them.
I'm sure that's a very common method for cutting. I probably have toed a bunch of lumber myself. I know I've never laid one across my thigh though. Everythings good. We all have our own ways. I know I'll never run a saw through my knee like one of my guys did.
>> (I'll come back to this later tonight if my big birthday bash doesn't put me under the table for a week, LOL....) <<Happy Birthday!! Enjoy it and we'll see you tomorrow........;-)>>I do it that way because it's easier and faster. It's easier, and quicker, to cut the sole plate out of the RO once it's nailed to the subfloor than it is to make up the sole plate in several pieces of different lengths.<< It depends how you do your plates. What I think everyone doesn't understand what I do is I use the snapped chalklines as my tape. The plates get nailed on the lines starting at the openings and at the end of the wall, I run my saw across the plate at the end of the chalkline. You can't make a mistake. No tape, no square.>> It'd take me five times that long at least to set up the plate stock on the CMS, measure and cut all the different lengths, then send them back to the chalkline. <<Why would you use a CMS for cutting plates when you can cut them right in place with no tape and no square. Look how many times you have to handle that one plate using a CMS.Joe Carola
Look how many times you have to handle that one plate using a CMS.
Exactly my point; that's what I don't wanna have to do. If I gotta cut me three sole plates for a wall with two doors, I gotta make three cuts and handle three separate pieces of lumber. If I am just cutting a 16-footer to length, I'm only handling it once...and I'm also cutting both top plates at the same time. So I'm really only handling it one-third of a time.
I can cut three 2x4s on the saw in one shot, then drop all three of 'em on the deck, tap the ends flush, and measure and mark the whole wall in the time it takes me to walk the length of it.
Then I gang-cut the studs three at a time on the CMS, separate the plates and assemble the wall. Slide it up to the chalk line and tip it up. Check it's on layout and shoot a couple of nails through the plate before plumbing it in both planes and tacking on a couple of braces as needed. Go on to the next partition.
I cut all of the door slugs out once we're done raising the walls, just walking around with my jamb saw and going zip zip. Hardly even have to bend down....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
>> Then I gang-cut the studs three at a time on the CMS, separate the plates and assemble the wall. Slide it up to the chalk line and tip it up. <<Because you frame the wall without it tacked to the line first and slide it over to your line, I agree that leaving the plate through makes sense.Joe Carola
There are a few more reasons why it's important to leave the wall plates run through the openings. But...alas....I'm worn out. Maybe I'll pick it up when this topic resurfaces next month.
>> There are a few more reasons why it's important to leave the wall plates run through the openings. <<For you it's important on outside walls. I guess I'll have to wait a month for your response back to my last post and why you use a tape for your plates.Joe Carola
You will have to wait until he gets fed up with thanksgiving
I use a tape on the plates to cut them to exactly a 16" center module. Example: I grab a long piece of linear plate stock. It happens to be a 16'er. We all know it's not exactly 16'. If I bump three of them together for the top plate, the studs be missing the joint. To support that joint, I'd have to A)add an extra stud or B)cut the plate back to wherever it lands over a stud. I choose B. I pull out my tape and cut it to 16' in length. So, imagine the sets of plates standing on edge and they are 44' long. They might be hanging off the end by a few inches. I whack that extra off and they are now ready for the layout, including the door and windows. You know all this....you're just messing with me.
>> You know all this....you're just messing with me. <<I'm not messing with you. If you HAVE to cut a plate over a stud, you have to measure I guess. Must be a Regional thing because I've never had to cut plates over a stud before. Why do you have to do that? Joe Carola
We just ran across this. According to the IRC, you don't need plate joints to land on studs or headers."R602.3.2 Top plate. Wood stud walls shall be capped with a
double top plate installed to provide overlapping at corners
and intersections with bearing partitions. End joints in top
plates shall be offset at least 24 inches (610 mm). Joints in
plates need not occur over studs. Plates shall be not less than
2-inches (51 mm) nominal thickness and have a width at
least equal to the width of the studs."
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The local yokels (building inspectors) insist that all top plates, and double top plates, land over a stud or solid member of some sort. This requirement is necessary for bearing walls. It allows a joist, or truss, to land anywhere on a wall plate and still be supported. So, the theory is sound but the inspectors don't really know WHY or WHEN it's important. As a result of their less than stellar knowledge, they simple resort to requiring this EVERYWERE. With that said, I would ALWAYS make sure the top plate breaks on a stud (or solid header) because it helps to keep everything together in the early framing stages.
>> The local yokels (building inspectors) insist that all top plates, and double top plates, land over a stud or solid member of some sort. <<Those inspectors are a bunch of Pineapples. Just think of all the time you could've saved by not having to measure all your top plates.Joe Carola
I don't actually measure all of them so the savings won't be that great. For instance: if we have a load of 16' linear delivered, it typically would measure 16'-0 3/4". So...every time I decide to use one of them, I whack a little bit (3/4), by eye, and away I go. I would do that even if the inspectors didn't require it. The 14' stock is different. I actually have to take out my tape IF the joint doesn't land on a plywood joint...which would be a 16" oc module. I also was not opposed to cutting the plate where the nails are on the plywood, which is also a 16" oc module. That comes with a slight risk that the nails might push the joint to one edge of the module. All in all, the amount of effort that it takes to get all the joints landing on something isn't much of a factor and it wasn't a pet peeve of mine. For the longest time, I ignored the requirement to make sure that the double top plate landed over the studs and I got away with that for years. My carpenter buddies would ask me how I did it but I really didn't know. At some point, I might have gotted knocked down and I started conforming.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
The 16' er's I get vary from 16' to 16' 1" so I have to measure each one. Usually in the same lift the only vary 1/8 or at worst up to 1/4
They used to vary 1/8 to 1/4 in our loads too. That made it easy for me to measure one or two and then I'd know how much I needed to whack by eye. In most cases, I didn't need them exactly 16' because I rarely needed more than two joints per wall. So, even if I missed by 1/4" both times, I'd still be on the stud.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
>> I don't actually measure all of them so the savings won't be that great. For instance: if we have a load of 16' linear delivered, it typically would measure 16'-0 3/4". So...every time I decide to use one of them, I whack a little bit (3/4), by eye, and away I go. I would do that even if the inspectors didn't require it.<<If you had a 54' wall and used 3-16' 2x4 plates, how would you cut your last plate? Couple posts ago, you said you measure the last piece . What I'm saying is that regardless if you cut plates over studs or do it my way, the last piece gets cut in place using no tape.>> The 14' stock is different. I actually have to take out my tape IF the joint doesn't land on a plywood joint...which would be a 16" oc module. <<Can you explain that. What does the plywood joint have to do with top plates?>> I also was not opposed to cutting the plate where the nails are on the plywood, which is also a 16" oc module. That comes with a slight risk that the nails might push the joint to one edge of the module. <<Don't understand that either about plate joints and plywood. What do they have to do with each other?>> All in all, the amount of effort that it takes to get all the joints landing on something isn't much of a factor and it wasn't a pet peeve of mine. <<That's because you got used to doing it. All in all if you didn't have to waste time doing it, your plating would go alot faster no matter what you think, it would go alot faster. >> For the longest time, I ignored the requirement to make sure that the double top plate landed over the studs and I got away with that for years. <<You're talking about the first top plate that gets nailed to the studs, right? You're not saying that the second top plate has to land over a stud, are you?Joe Carola
yes, both plates would have to land over the stud, or solid header. 54' wall:
a)First plate: cut 16' by eye. Set perfect on corner. No tacks.
b)Second plate: Cut 16' by eye. Slide gently till it touches the first plate. No tacks.
c)Third plate. Cut 16' by eye. Slide till it meets the first two plates. No tacks.
d)remaining plate. Whack by eye so it hangs slightly over the wall. I probably would have to cut it off a 16' piece because there isn't any "scrap" lying around. My methods don't leave any. I'd probably whack the plate in half, by eye and place the "drop" near the top where I will start with it on my double top place. That would involve me flinging it down toward the beginning of the wall. once that "wild" piece in laying in place, I'd square up the chalkline and then use my framing square to find the exact outside wall line (OWL). I make sure my OWLs are exact! I then run the saw through both plates (top and bottom) and the plates are set for length. I think move back toward the beginning, tacking the bottom plate to the chalkline. I only need enough to keep the assembly stable. There will be metal straps nailed up through the bottom plate as we frame that will provide the holdback so the wall doesn't slide when we raise it. http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
I'm not messing with you. If you HAVE to cut a plate over a stud, you have to measure I guess. Must be a Regional thing because I've never had to cut plates over a stud before.
For the most part what your building is stacked. Stud over/next to joist, joist over or next to stud and ceiling joists or rafters over studs.
I'll go back to Florida again.
Outside walls framed 16" oc but trusses laid out 24" oc. If a truss lands in the middle of two studs AND there is a break in one of the plates in that same bay? You end up throwing in an extra stud directly under it.
Not sure if that's why Jim was doing it, but that's why we had to.
"Outside walls framed 16" oc but trusses laid out 24" oc. If a truss lands in the middle of two studs AND there is a break in one of the plates in that same bay? You end up throwing in an extra stud directly under it.Not sure if that's why Jim was doing it, but that's why we had to."Thats precisely why we had to. My beef with the inspectors is that they would require a stud under an unsupported break in either plate, even if there wasn't anything bearing in that particular stud bay. My guess about their lack of technical application is that they really din't know why a joint shouldn't occur in some stud bay.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
>> Outside walls framed 16" oc but trusses laid out 24" oc. If a truss lands in the middle of two studs AND there is a break in one of the plates in that same bay? You end up throwing in an extra stud directly under it. <<I've never done that before when always framing studs 16" centers and joists 12" centers.This is just another case of some inspectors making up their own rules.Joe Carola
"This is just another case of some inspectors making up their own rules."It's not unheard of. Therein lies a major reason why each of us choose a particular technique. Different requirements pose different challenges and we are all smart enough to figure out that one size doesn't fit all. I offered up my techniques as gift to those that are still framing and might want to consider something different. http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
>> I offered up my techniques as gift to those that are still framing and might want to consider something different. <<Jim,That right there is the whole reason for these forums. That's exactly what I do and I want to see people do so that if I can better myself with using someone else's technique that might work to make my framing more efficient.The problem with some people here and on other forums is that they have only framed one way their whole life and think that's the only way to frame. They will not even try something new that sounds foreign to them. They also argue another way of framing and saying that it's slower when they haven't even tried it. That shows that they are not open minded and will never try something different, or can't comprehend what someone else is doing. You've always tried different techniques to be more efficient. You have an argument, they don't. You've compared different techniques, they haven't.Like I've said many times that I framed out in Cape Cod and learned a completely different way of framing. Complete opposite of what I do. I did it and didn't complain about it and UNDERSTOOD it, and was willing to understand it.Joe Carola
I understand Joe. And I understand exactly how you set up your plates to the previously marked door openings. I've done plenty of that myself in various situation. I found, for me, because of the way I frame the rest of the wall and partition assembly, that it doesn't matter. I'd rather have the door blocks left in and I use them for various things as I frame.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
I think I do plate detail just about the same way as you. Only thing I can add is that our lineal stock varies from 16' even to about 16'1 so I'm hesitant to eyeball. What I will do is use subfloor seams to approximate where 16' lies on the piece of stock. I know it's a fixed 16' measurement and its always right there on the deck in front of me... so I eyeball... but I have suspenders on.View Image
I agree...the subfloor seams are generally a great item to use as a "measuring" device. I did that a lot. When I started, all the linear stock was 16' 1". It varied a 1/4" In later years, it generally was 16' 0 1/2" and varied shorter by 1/4". I was actually very cognizant of the wall lengths and which plate stock I would use. My nature is to preserve as much material as possible so sometimes I took that philosophy to an extreme. One of my main goals was to finish a house with the stock that was shipped. I hated ordering more. I did crazy things to use the stock in the most efficient way...often to the detriment of my own time. It was my "sickness".http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
>> I understand Joe. And I understand exactly how you set up your plates to the previously marked door openings. I've done plenty of that myself in various situation. I found, for me, because of the way I frame the rest of the wall and partition assembly, that it doesn't matter. I'd rather have the door blocks left in and I use them for various things as I frame. <<I think the only thing you haven't done is shoes and plates the way I do and then pull the plates back and toenail the studs and then raise and toenail the bottoms. I think that would be a fun thing to do. I'll come up and visit and we'll do it together. If you think it's nuts, you can whack me in the head with a plate......;-)Joe Carola
I actually have done that toenail thing. For a lot of reasons, I can understand why you do it. You've outlined them before and it makes perfect sense. I've never done an entire house but in very limited circumstances, I've done the toenail thing. Like anything, it's awkward for someone like me that doesn't do it on a consistent basis and I'm sure I would be able to get up to speed rather quickly. I'd really hate to whack you upside the head with that plate lol...I hate ruining good lumber!http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Most houses I worked on had trusses. On interior walls the door cut outs were our door headers.http://dallasmartin.shutterfly.com
I always had trouble with the idea of using the door cutouts for the header. I know it can be done but it's not anything I would do...and yes....I've tried it. For me, in my system, it's too slow and there is nothing to be gained. I use the door cutouts for: blocking, cripples, shorter headers etc. In the end, when I'm done moving through the house framing, all that is left behind is small chunks of 2x less than 10". I can even make 8" blocks work for many things so I don't toss those until very late in the game. http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
I liked it because I didn't have to cut anything but the plates to build a interior wall.http://dallasmartin.shutterfly.com
This is just another case of some inspectors making up their own rules.
I don't think so at all.
It's a case of different inspectors having different interpretations of a broad set of rules.
Hell, I had an inspector in Watchung make us put a stud under any 12"oc joist that landed in a bay with a plate break.
Believe it or not? This is not at all uncommon in other areas of the country.
One of the things I enjoyed about working in that area, once it was laid out I could build plates without having to bust out my tape.
It's all regional. Go ahead and tell someone form another part of the country how many houses you've framed with lumber that wasn't kiln dried and check out the looks of horror you get.
>> Hell, I had an inspector in Watchung make us put a stud under any 12"oc joist that landed in a bay with a plate break. <<Framing inspection comes after all wiring, plumbing, hvac. Did you have wires in the way? If so, that must have sucked to add studs.>> Believe it or not? This is not at all uncommon in other areas of the country. <<I believe anything ever since I've been on these forums.>> One of the things I enjoyed about working in that area, once it was laid out I could build plates without having to bust out my tape. <<At least you understand an know what I'm talking about. Plating is one of the fastest things about framing. It's also the most accurate because you can't make a mistake as far as having plates not measuring the same length.>>It's all regional. Go ahead and tell someone form another part of the country how many houses you've framed with lumber that wasn't kiln dried and check out the looks of horror you get. <<I've only framed with kiln dried once in my life. Joe Carola
I've only framed with kiln dried once in my life.
And see, before working in New Jersey I had never once framed a house with what we always called "Green Lumber". A totally unthinkable idea before.
Yeah, It was a pain in the a$$. In the end we pulled staples and backed wire out of boxes, put in studs, drilled them and re-wired.
Because you frame the wall without it tacked to the line first and slide it over to your line, I agree that leaving the plate through makes sense.
In a lot of remods, I can't do it that way, of course, and I'll often cut the sole plate section by section. When I have to build the wall in place, it's one piece at a time. Some times ya even gotta build it from the top down which is a PITA; plumb bob to locate each section of the sole plate and each stud measured and cut to fit the actual height where it'll stand. Way slower.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Remods is a different beast. You can't go into them with a closed mind. All options have to be considered to be efficient.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Remodeling is a different ball game. There are so many variables like you just said with cutting each stud. New framing compared to existing framing is night and day. Did you have a good B-day?Joe Carola
New framing compared to existing framing is night and day.
Did you have a good B-day?
Amen to that, and yes, the B-day was very mellow. Had a coupla 'improved' cups of coffee with breakfast, and when I finished that (and reading all of this danged thread!) around 1pm, went off and ogled the pretty gals at the bank, the supermarket, and the lunch counter.
Then came home, talked with my son, had a Guinness with some mussels and linguini, and watched Splash! which gave me the opportunity to ogle a pretty mermaid.
What more could a guy ask for?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
>> Then came home, talked with my son, had a Guinness with some mussels and linguini, and watched Splash! which gave me the opportunity to ogle a pretty mermaid. What more could a guy ask for? <<I'm glad you had a good B-day. Can't get any better than spending time with your son. I wish I could glue my son to me 24/7.Have you seen Daryl Hanna's face lately? She had some wacky thing done to her lips, cheeks, eyes...etc. She kinda looks like Joan Rivers...........Joe Carola
Don't know how 'lately' you mean; I saw the recent interview with her about Splash! that was included in the 'special features' on the dvd; she looked okay in that. More than okay, actually. 0),
I should have specified that I had talked with my son on the phone that afternoon; he is still stuck at his mother's during the week most of the time. I'd like to glue him to me 24/7 too. But that's a whole 'nother story. At least last weekend was a 4-day special; for reasons unknown, the schools had a 'ped day' (kids off, teachers on) on Friday and Monday so we got to spend extra time.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've always left the bottom plate atttched. keeps sizing, reduces twist and measuring oop to a minimum. Now, if were always just me doing, I trust myself and only myself. What are you saving on a job. 10 pcs 3' of PT and 15 minutes
What I do hate is when the client dicides to show up late at night when no one is around and they trip on the plates. As my day used to say when we were kids. "pick up your feet"(ex 30yr marine)
>> I've always left the bottom plate atttched. keeps sizing, reduces twist and measuring oop to a minimum.<<What do you mean, sizing and measuring to a minimum? Do you facenail and tack your shoe on edge on the chalklines? >> Now, if were always just me doing, I trust myself and only myself. What are you saving on a job. 10 pcs 3' of PT and 15 minutes <<This has nothing to do with savings because 2x4's can go anywhere. Your talking about slabs using pt. Maybe they can't get used anywhere. I rarely frame on slabs. But if I ran plates through, those 2x's would get eaten anywhere.Joe Carola
Joe,
I have just begun reading this thread, but wanted to describe how I layout.
I usually cut both plates in place with the Big Foot. Then I do my layout with the plates toegether. I guess at that point I could cut out the door bucks of one of the plates.
I might try that on the frame we are about to start. Has always seemed easier to just frame the wall and cut them out later. Often too a brace will nail into that plate in the doorway, but that is not a big deal.
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
>> I might try that on the frame we are about to start. Has always seemed easier to just frame the wall and cut them out later. Often too a brace will nail into that plate in the doorway, but that is not a big deal. <<Tim,Try it once and let me know what you think. If a brace does land in the doorway, you can shoot a scrap 2x4 in and it will hold fine, trust me.Joe Carola
we used to use al little electric chainsaw
I'm not a carpenter, so my question might seem silly ... but why are you concerned with the appearance of the subfloor?
What I've seen guys do is to cut with the sawsall, whack the piece out, then trim any stray wood with a chisel.
Back when I was framing I'd just cut half way through the bottom plate at the jack lines before I tilted the wall up. When we were ready to cut out the bottom plates I'd just slip the sawzall into the notch and cut upwards through the rest of the plate.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Never thought when I asked about methods of cutting the plate out, that it would get to 140 posts!
Anyhow, seeing one person suggest a Fein Multimaster, I left my sawzall in the box and took my Harbor Freight $39.95 version and gave it a try. Like "buttah"! Nice, easy, clean cut, took no time at all.
I'll continue to run my plates through, thanks, especially with a quicker better cleaner way to cut them out later!
Joe,
Running the sill plate thru the opening is a pretty common thing in a lot of the country.
I think you and I have worked in the same area before. New Jersey, Morris, Sussex, Warren, Somerset and Hunterdon Counties.
It wasn't until I started working in that area that I even learned to lay out door openings on the floor and cut sill plates to match.
A lot of other places they just run sills and plates and once they are all ran, lay out doors and other openings. Everything gets cut out later.
That's probably why he does it that way.
I agree, it's easier to cut them right before hand. But to him? It's possible that you may as well be speaking another language.
>> A lot of other places they just run sills and plates and once they are all ran, lay out doors and other openings. Everything gets cut out later.That's probably why he does it that way.<<I don't know how he does it, he never answered my post to him. If he does frame the walls without tacking the plate to the deck on edge in another area like others have mentioned, I can see why running the plates through makes sense because you're building the wall somewhere else and sliding/carrying it over to the chalkline where it will be nailed.If tacking the shoe on edge on the snapped lines leaving the plates out is very easy and will not cause any problems and the RO's will be the same top and bottom.>>I agree, it's easier to cut them right before hand. But to him? It's possible that you may as well be speaking another language. <<That's what these forums are all about, different ways of doing things. It might sound like a different language to some, but some people have to keep an open mind and be willing to try something new, if not they will never know if another way might work and be more efficient for them. Joe Carola
I have cut out the plates on doorwalls, before framing, which of course are located on the outside wall. I tried that method just to see if I liked it. I was not satisfied with the results. The problem occurred because of the weight of the walls we were raising and the torques that sometimes caused the walls to want to twist. The thing that happened to me was that the end of the cutout plate wanted to lift up and then it splintered at the tack. My conclusion was this: I had to alter the way we framed and lifted the walls....or I had to continue running the plates through. Running the plates through created a more evenly spread out force on the "lift". My decision was based also on time savings. It took me as much, or more time to cut out the plate and then make sure it was properly aligned at the opening or the other end. Let me elaborate a bit about how I went about laying out the plates in preparation for their layout:I'd walk and drop all the bottom plates, and their tops in a random manner spreading them over the length of the wall. I'd then move to one end, carrying the saw/cord and align both plates to the edge. Often, I'd start the bottom plate with any length of scrap that I could find because there is no reason that the bottom plate needs to be a long piece. Nor does it have to break on anything...meaning the joint can land between the stud bays. The top plate has different rules and needs to land on a stud or solid header. I also wanted a minimum of joints in the top. I'd cut the first top plate to land on something. After that, I measured and cut the top plates to an exact 16" center module. So, my movements were this. The bottom plates were randomly (lightly touching each other) bumped and placed. The tops were cut to a specific length so they landed on a stud (or solid header). As I moved quickly across the deck (40 or 50 feet), I quickly got to the far end and cut the final two plates to length. The plates were ready and I knew I could place my tape on any of the top plate joints to pull layout. I marked all the "field" studs with a black center mark (no lines and "x"s). I then laid out all the windows and bucks with a pencil. The pencil marks held precedence over the black marks. I mention all this because it demonstrates the speed at which a wall could be laid out. The cutting of the plates would have significantly slowed this process down. The amount of time that it actually takes to cut the plates out with my power saw is exactly the same amount that it takes whether it is done before the wall is laid out or after. For me, it was a losing proposition to precut the door openings. I even tried the method of cutting halfway through. That just doubled the time spent on door cutting. I think yall should try my method just once....I've tried all yours.
Edited 11/25/2009 10:27 am ET by jimAKAblue
>> I have cut out the plates on doorwalls, before framing, which of course are located on the outside wall. I tried that method just to see if I liked it. I was not satisfied with the results. <<What about the inside doors?>>The problem occurred because of the weight of the walls we were raising and the torques that sometimes caused the walls to want to twist. The thing that happened to me was that the end of the cutout plate wanted to lift up and then it splintered at the tack. <<I never had that problem.>>My decision was based also on time savings. It took me as much, or more time to cut out the plate and then make sure it was properly aligned at the opening or the other end.<<Did you ever try just starting the plates AT the opening?>> The top plate has different rules and needs to land on a stud or solid header.<<I've never used that rule before.>> I also wanted a minimum of joints in the top. I'd cut the first top plate to land on something. After that, I measured and cut the top plates to an exact 16" center module.<<Why measure anything? If you lay the plates in place, why not just run your saw through the plates with no square at the line? That line is your plate length. No need to measure plates when plating. >>I mention all this because it demonstrates the speed at which a wall could be laid out. The cutting of the plates would have significantly slowed this process down.<<How would it slow you down if you started the plates at the openings?>>For me, it was a losing proposition to precut the door openings.<<What are you precutting? If you start the plates at the openings you're not precutting anything.>>I think yall should try my method just once....I've tried all yours.<<Are you talking about running/not running plates through, or different framing methods?Joe Carola
Joe I generally run my plates through .
I was taught that when first learning framing and have found it works for me because like others here have stated I always build ext walls first then pick the largest room to assemble the interior walls in and move them to the pre-snapped out location.
Another reason I haven't seen mentioned is I use what we call "hooter sticks" or "flex braces" to achieve the desired push/pull when string lining walls prior to setting trusses.The bottoms of these braces are almost always set against the sole plate of a wall then used to either push or pull the top of the wall into line.
Bracing off a short section of sole plate can move the sole plate off line I have learned.
I set my trimmers after the walls are up , trusses set and roof sheathed and interior walls locked into the trusses.. Then I use the brace stock for trimmers. Run the saw across the door opening with the shoe against the king stud and slam a trimmer in. (electric chain saws work wonders for removing the plates at opening too)
Easy to understand and appreciate your method as I have done the same on remodels when walls were built in place as opposed to the build and haul system.
Life is Good
I believe if it works for you, do it. I have never tried your way, except in metal stud. Frankly, I'm not going to stop in the middle of snapping to lay out door openings. I'll do that later when I already have my tape out doing layout.
Give me a bunch of tacked to gether plate and I'll smoke through plating.
I see no time saving in your way and frankly seems to take another few steps. I don't expect you to agree and I have no problem with that.
As I've posted earlier, the tape comes out for snapping lines. It goes away unilt lay out. I try to use 12's and 16' for plate as they fall on lay out. I do toe nail down exterior bottom plates for tipping up, but still don't see whay I would want to stop and cut out the plates ahead of time only because I still don't see a time saving element.
Edited 11/26/2009 6:52 pm ET by ryder
>> I believe if it works for you, do it. I have never tried your way, except in metal stud. <<No Ryder, with all due respect, you have never done shoes and plates the way I do, that's why you don't understand and know what you're talking about. >>Frankly, I'm not going to stop in the middle of snapping to lay out door openings. I'll do that later when I already have my tape out doing layout.<<Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The lines get snapped by me or my guys doesn't matter who does it.It doesn't take everyone to snap lines. As there being snapped someone is marking door openings. It's that simple, no time is lost. >>Give me a bunch of tacked to gether plate and I'll smoke through plating. <<Again, you don't know how I do my plates and frankly, I've done them your way and I can smoke through shoes and plates the way I do them faster than the way I did them your way. Do you take your tape out to do shoes and plates, I don't.>>I see no time saving in your way and frankly seems to take another few steps. I don't expect you to agree and I have no problem with that. <<I don't agree because you will never know which way is faster and if my way takes more steps because you've never done it. Until then you are wrong because you have nothing to compare it to, I do, I've done it your way, you haven't done it my way. How can you say what your saying when you have know idea what you're talking about? >>As I've posted earlier, the tape comes out for snapping lines. It goes away unilt lay out. I try to use 12's and 16' for plate as they fall on lay out. I do toe nail down exterior bottom plates for tipping up, but still don't see whay I would want to stop and cut out the plates ahead of time only because I still don't see a time saving element.<<Have you tried it yet? If not, go try it first and then talk to me. Now, try laying out shoes and plates the way I do and then come and talk to me about taking extra steps and taking your tape out. Until then you have no argument and cannot tell me that my way takes extra steps and there is no time savings.Joe Carola
Please guys, read the whole thread, and then if you can possibly come up with something new, by all means post.
Joe has answered most every question at least twice, and I'm getting tired of the same over and over>G<
Dave the spelling challenged Frammer!
As Framer 52 said, if there is nothing to add I should just let it go. From your reply I think I stepped on your toes inadvertantly. It would be easier if we were standing together on a fresh deck, snap lines in hand and you showed me how you think it saves time. That way, if I still didn't agree with you, you could just push me off the deck and I would let it go...:)
David,
I still don't see any reason why anyone runs the shoe through the openings and cuts them out later. Even when I framed facenailing and sheathing walls before standing up, I never ran the shoe through.
There is no reason at all to do this. Leaving the shoe out at every single opening and raising walls whether you frame facenailing or toenail will never effect anything, the walls will not move and stay straight. Just tack a nail on each side of the opening.
Joe Carola
Frankly, you're telling me there is no reason to do it my way and I'm wrong, and I guess you're offended because I don't accept that when I've never done it your way.
I probably won't do it your way any time in the near future as I don't frame full time any more, just finished GCing a TI job, basement remodel next.
I can read and while not the sharpest stick in the shed I have to make choices every day on the info at hand. I don't 'see' any time saving elements in your process. As I said, wish we were framing next door and you could show me as it sounds interesting.
I guess my question is, what step in my process is eliminated that makes it so much faster.
I'm assuming you take the time while snapping to mark all door openings and some how mark them on the floor? Then you grab one plate and start plating bottom plates, cutting them at door openings? After that you return and do the two top plates? Then you return and lay out studs and windows? Completely reasonable.
I have a pile of 16' and 12' tacked together with one 8 at one end. After snapping I run plates on snapped lines cutting with my bigfoot using snap lines or framing edge, one time through. Then I lay out wall. It just seems like less steps and movements, might be wrong.
You mentioned to another post that these threads are a place to post ideas and some guys are too closed minded to accept them. I accept that you find your way better, but in your own post above you stated "There is no reason at all to do this", run shoes through.
Just because you have done both ways doesn't mean everyone else doing it differently has no reason. I believe you have done it my way and found your way to be better. I don't believe it to be faster. I find economy of motion is what speeds up production. The less steps from point A to B the faster.
I also believe I'm missing some understanding of your system. But just because you haven't convinced me doesn't seem a reason to write me off as close minded.
don't know how he does it, he never answered my post to him. If he does frame the walls without tacking the plate to the deck on edge in another area like others have mentioned, I can see why running the plates through makes sense because you're building the wall somewhere else and sliding/carrying it over to the chalkline where it will be nailed.
That's the rub. For example in Florida: after we built plates? they were all tacked together, numbered (with a number on the deck as well), piled up out of the way and then just built where ever there was room.
I'm still not convinced that doing it that way is any faster or easier than Toe Nailing.
I used to have Dewalt saw that was exactly 1 1/2" from the edge of the shoe to the blade. Just leave the jack out and cut.
Each to their own I guess.
My method is to cut half way through the bottom of the sill plate with the circ. saw and then assemble the stud wall. After it is in place the sawsall cut is easy without hitting the cement slab.
I didn't read all these to find out what the consensus was, but, when I learned the trade , it was, after laying out the plates, to cut half-way throu the bottom. When all is done, finish cutting from the top with a saws-all ( although when I learned it was a hand saw, no saws alls in them days ). The added advantage is the RO is in line, and the Ro measurement is same top and bottom.
Nothing more fun than getting ready to swing a door, and finding out the AH framer nailed off one leg on one side of the snaped line and the other on other side of line. Time to get out a block of wood and the sledge, and toe-nail the fix. Although this doesn't work very well if the floor has already been tiled. And fixing someone else's sh** was not part of the bid. Gets more fun when it's metal studs Hilti'ed on concrete and metal jams. That's where you turn it over to the GC and do other trim work or get a add-order signed.
Roger
>> The added advantage is the RO is in line, and the Ro measurement is same top and bottom. <<Roger,It's not an added advantage running the plates through to make sure the RO is the same top and bottom because same holds true the way I do it with leaving the plates out of the RO. Bottom line is either way, running through and not running through the RO's will be exactly the same top and bottom.Joe Carola