I’ve read many of the spirited window debates in the FH archive. As always, I learned a great deal there. However, I didn’t see any discussion of a specific detail I’m interested in.
I’m about to buy a whole-house order of windows. For a variety of reasons, my choices have been narrowed to Milgard Woodclad (fiberglass) and Andersen 400. I’d really like to buy the Andersens, but I’m concerned about the longevity of the vinyl cladding.
The factor that makes this an issue is that we want a dark green exterior. Typically, vinyl doesn’t do well in dark colors – absorbing heat that magnifies the thermal expansion problem.
I’ve read all the great comments on Andersen cust. service. My folks had Andersens installed 35 years ago and got great service out of them. But the dark green vinyl worries me.
Does anyone here have info/experience/opinion on this? Will the dark green color cause failure in the vinyl clading? Will Andersen replace the windows if they fail in 12 years? (10-year warranty doesn’t inspire a lot of faith)
Thanks!
Jon
Jon
Replies
hector....i've installed every color Andersen has...
EXCEPT the dark green
BUT...i get lot's of feedback from the reps...and have heard no concern over the dark green
everyone in the industry knows the problem of dark green and pvc/vinyl products
for example, Azek recommends Sherwin Williams Duration paint
Andersen would not market dark green vinyl if they weren't confident in the longevity of their product
so....my bottom line...i'd sell it to my customers and use it for my own home
Well, after 30-40 years, the ones on the south side might not be quite as dark green!;)
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and you could paint them with DurationMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Painted a bunch of white Jeld-Wens dark green with spray paint from Rustoleum & Krylon.
Krylon is much nicer to work with. Better finish, easier to spray.
Only been a year, but full sun exposure and no problems.
Hijack Joe H
just replaced a bunch of wood trim painted with Ben Moore Essex Green
when we switched to Azek....azek wanted Duration for dark colorsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks guys! I really appreciate the feedback.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Mike, the spray paint I used is for vinyl, specifically those white plastic lawn chairs I guess.
That's the picture on the cans, both brands, same chairs.
Joe H
Hasn't the dark bronze Andersen color been around for quite a while? And if so, can anyone comment on the colorfastness, etc., of that cladding?
Which makes me think of something. Having been in Andersen's plant and seen the vacuum-forming of skins from PVC sheet, recognizing it is just plain vinyl . . .
. . . those who think it is the most durable exterior building material finish since spilt milk . . . shouldn't they be just as staunch in their defense of (gasp!) vinyl siding?????
As always, your thoughts, comments, barbs, catcalls, etc., are always appreciated.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
"so....my bottom line...i'd sell it to my customers and use it for my own home"Um, wouldn't selling them to the customer and using them on your own home, kind of put a customer off ?;o)
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The warrenty is for 10 years. If the green is still good after 9 I doubt you'll have a problem.
I have used the green Andersen 400 windows in DH, casement and awning. Attached is a picture of a double-hung after one summer. The chalking is pretty bad, esp. on windows that get sun. I have not heard of any leaks or other problems though.
I called Andersen customer service this morning. They were quite friendly and helpful. I never felt like they were blowing smoke. They seemed sincere and forthright, best as I could tell.
They admitted that they had heard of problems with the darker colors, but that they weren't common. The problems were with the "window bead", which I assume is the seal between the glass and sash. That makes sense, because the glass. wood, and vinyl all expand at different rates. They'd never heard of any cracking or seam failures. Within the 10-year warranty period, they'll replace any component that fails.
I still have some reservations about the vinyl, but feel pretty good about the company standing behind their product. Milgard got some horrible customer services ratings from J D Powers. That has tipped the scales towards Andersen.
That chalking that maggie pointed out is pretty bad. I may consider an alternative for the two or three windows that get lots of direct sun.
Thanks again!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
We just installed Green Andersen for the first time this year. I can't say how they will hold up but they do have one stupid design flaw.
The window frame and sashes are green but the jamb liners only come in white. Looks awful to me. The screens kind of hide it, but if you have a dark siding and green windows that white pops right out at you, not to mention it is a nightmare trying to get anything else to match that shade of green as far as soffit/facia, garage doors, gutters, etc...
Also I think that "chalking" that Maggie is showing is due to the "self cleaning" glass that Andersen is using now. I've noticed it on the windows on my own house and it's only on the lower portion of the window, not above the glass. Just my thought on the situation.Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
The jamb liners are available in white and gray. I've only seen gray jamb liners on green double-hung windows. I don't think I'd be too happy with white either.......View Image
I blew a gasket at the Andersen rep whom I've known for quite a while. He swore up and down only available with white jambs. That lying sack of.....Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
It's pretty easy to switch them out..View Image
Call Andersen..... Today.
Then let us all know what happens.
Just bite the bullet and go with Marvin. It has the best performance with their cladding not fading over time.
"It is what it is."
That's not biting the bullet. That's taking the bullet between the eyes!
I could probably stretch and afford the Marvin Infinity's, but they would cost me about $8k extra. I like that window, but not enough to trim $8,000 somewhere else in the budget.
Marvin Casemasters or Ultimates would break the bank. Beautiful windows, but beyond my means.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Have you looked into Eagle windows? Their price point is in the ballpark of Integrity but the product looks more like a Marvin Ultimate.
?? When I priced Integrity's, they were *more* expensive than even the Marvin Ultimates. Perhaps that is just regional, but at least here in Mid-Atlantic, they're not cheap. Right now I'm deciding between Loewen and Windsors, price of the Loewens is 40% more than the Windsors, which is driving the decision. Both are nice, but those Loewens are spectacular windows, I'm not sure that the $3k won't be better spent elsewhere.ZOops, I meant to mention that Eagle/Windsor/Hurd all seem to be about the same price in my area, Loewen is next, and Integrity's are the most expensive.
Edited 9/15/2008 4:23 pm ET by mackzully
Are you sure about that? We install a lot of Marvin Ultimates, at an average price of $800 to $1000 per window. Marvin Integritys are down in the $500 range I thought. Eagle is around $600 to $700, and Llowen is $1000 to $1200.
I would never choose a Marvin Integrity over any of those other windows.
Like I said, maybe it's a regional, or even just a window size thing, but Integrity's were ~$1000+ window, Ultimates ~$750, Fibertecs ~$750, Loewen ~$625, Eagle/Hurd/Windsor ~$500. Aluminum clad where not fiberglass. The Integrity's surprised me as I thought they'd be cheaper, but at least from the dealer in the Mid-Atlantic, they're certainly not.These windows are either 24"x66" or 34"x66" ROs for the most part.Z
I got a quote for the Marvin Infinity's of $34,000. Unfortunately, they didn't include the laminated glass I wanted on several of the windows. That would probably bump the price by about $6,000.
The quote for Marvin Casemasters, from a different supplier, was $47,000.
Kolbe and Kolbe, from a third source, came in at $54,000
Milgard Woodclads quoted at $32,000. Great value, but questions about their lead time and customer service.
Spent nearly an hour with a Pella salesman, giving a detailed explanation of what I needed. He never had the courtesy to call me back.
I'd LOVE to have Loewen's, but was told that they are currently 10 weeks out. I never priced them... probably couldn't afford them anyway.
Andersen's were $26,000 before the laminated glass upgrade. I'm meeting with the guy tonight. I suspect the final price will come in about the same as the Milgards ($32,000).
BTW. I'm in the Mid-Atlantic region too (Maryland)
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Dunno, maybe your windows are oddly sized, but I was working with the Sanders Company (which I think is the sole Loewen dealer in the Mid-Atlantic) and they told me that most everything was about 6 weeks at the moment (this was 2-3 weeks ago). I'd give them a call, they've been the most responsive window company I've dealt with, and they maintain their own staff of factory trained techs so you never have to deal with factory if you've a problem. Which may or may not be an advantage, but I like the fact they're local, and they appear to have their s**t together.I had gone to price out the Loewens to see what the 'highest end' window package would be and the pricing surprised me. If you get a chance, they've a showroom in Bethesda. They are definitely worth seeing, the coping and detailing on the cladding is quite stunning.Z
If I thought I could fit Loewen's in the schedule and budget, I'd jump at it.
I googled "The Sanders Company". The outfit I found is on Rolling Mill Road in Baltimore. Is that where you're talking about?
I live just outside Baltimore, so it's a managable road trip before work.
See what you've done?!?!? I was all ready to make this decision and move on!
Seriously though, thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Yup, you got the right company. Good luck, schedules are only made to be blown.Z
Pella guy did you a favor by not calling back. IMO, they su*k.
I went to order an Andersen patio door last week at HD and the guy told me if I waited until 9/11, all special order Andersen products would be on sale (10% off) until 9/18. Don't know if this is a HD thing or an Andersen thing, but by waiting a week, I saved ~$300. Not a bad tip from the guy in mill work.
Hector , consider purchasing in delaware. No sales tax there.
The problems you describe are easy to believe. I'm definitely off of the Andersens. I still like the company, but the dark vinyl is something I'll stay away from.
Buying in DE is a great idea, but I'm WAY overdue on ordering these windows. I can't afford the time to shop around for a Delaware dealer.
Besides, I'm SURE that Maryland will spend my money responsibly. Maybe they'll put up a nice wooden street sign in some neighborhood I'll never see.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I went to The Sanders Company this morning. They were great! A person walked over to help me as soon as I walked in. We talked for 20 minutes or so about what I was looking for. About three hours later, I had a quote in my email inbox. I was impressed. The Milgard folks took TWO WEEKS to get a quote back to me!!
And the price? Well, it was a little more than the Andersens. But once I tweaked the window schedule a little bit, the Loewens came in right at $35,000. I was shooting for the mid-30's, so that's perfect.
At lunchtime, I drove over to the showroom in Bethesda. I thought I ought to actually SEE the windows before I bought them. Of course, they had beautiful camber-top french doors that were probably $10k, but the basic windows were pretty sweet too.
Lead time is in the 7-9 week range. That's not ideal, but it's tolerable for such a nice product.
I'm placing the order tomorrow.
I'm grateful for the heads up on Sanders. For about the same money, I think I'm getting a far superior window.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Excellent, I'm glad to hear that everything worked out for you! Now if I can somehow parlay my referral into a discount on my order I'd be all set ;)Z
Here is something about Loewen that was once true, and may still be.
When I built in the midwest, my HVAC contractor performed blower door tests foe me when everything was complete. We would run around the house, me following him, and he would check out all the infiltration leak points.
I asked him, since he did these in job after job, which window brand exhibited the most airtight performance, right out of the can. He said it was Loewen.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
The green windows are a fad and you'll wish you didnt have them in 5 years. Reminds me of all the bronze stuff we installed in the 70s and 80s, ugly then, ugly now. They will fade badly on the south and west. The Andersen terratone look like copper color after a few years, you'll regret this decision.
I won't buy from them....
I have issues with people that microwave the family pet because of an ugly divorce.
But that's just me.
Somebody microwaved a pet?!? I've never heard that story, and I'm sure I don't want to.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Sad, but true.........
I hadn't heard of them until your message. They look like good windows, but I might be too far along to swerve now.
I'm meeting with my window guy this evening. Since Eagle appears to be an Andersen line, I'll ask if they sell them.
Thanks for the heads up.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
That's right, I keep forgetting that Andersen bought Eagle a couple years ago. Your Andersen rep might bristle though; I'm not sure how "included" Eagle is in Andersen's lineup. We have a dedicated Eagle rep, and the lumberyards handle Andersen.
Another window in the same category is Jeld-Wen's "Siteline EX" line.
I hear ya. I am sorry if I offended.
"It is what it is."
List price for CUDH 36" X 52" $509
List price for Integrity DH 36" X 52" $389
List prices, standard options.
"It is what it is."
Ah shoot.... No offense at all!!
I love the Marvins. Just couldn't find them for a price I could afford.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Ohh ok. I know all too well how it is to not be able to afford what I want for my home. I started a kitchen remodel in my home and due to some unforeseen circumstances, it has been a year of it being down to studs working in a temp kitchen 1/4 of the size. It really sucks to have the skills to create some really beautiful work for everyone else and then to come home to what I see everyday....... So I always feel bad when I hear can't afford from my own mind as well as the DW.
Take care.
"It is what it is."
Andersen has had terra tone for years and they have had warranty issues with it cracking at the corners.
Their service guys would apply vinyl covers over the cracking corners with a color matched epoxy. The casement sash would be drilled in the corners and epoxy injected. Then the cracks get covered with color matched silicone.
I'm thinking dark green might be risky.