Good morning everybody, I am continuing on my kitchen re-do and am almost at the finish line. While I was tiling the backsplash I seemed to have knocked out all of the receptacles in the kitchen, and cannot figure out how to fix the issue.
I am basically gonna have a pro come out to fix it (whatever it is), but wanted to make sure I wasn’t overlooking some simple fix.
I have a line coming into the kitchen (from the box) which daisy chains through 5 outlets, dead ending in one with a GFCI label (no test/reset buttons, but a sticker for ID). A while back I added a dimmer for low voltage lighting, the power for it was split off of the first outlet. Otherwise pretty simple, no other outlets/switches on that line.
In the process of tearing down and re-doing the backsplash I killed the power (tripped the breaker) twice (no, I did not turn off the circuit ahead of time which I should have). The same outlet both times, the first caused an arc, the second came just from bumping the outlet. The first time I reset the breaker and all was fine, the second time I cannot get juice back.
I have replaced both the outlet in question (middle of the chain) and the breaker in the box, but still no-go. Basically, I have no power coming in at the first outlet.
So, any thoughts on something obvious I am missing? This is about as far as I am willing to go with electric, I would not have fooled with the box but had a friend who is knowledgeable instructing me.
Any insight is appreciated.
Replies
"I have a line coming into the kitchen (from the box) which daisy chains through 5 outlets, dead ending in one with a GFCI label (no test/reset buttons, but a sticker for ID). A while back I added a dimmer for low voltage lighting, the power for it was split off of the first outlet. Otherwise pretty simple, no other outlets/switches on that line."
I suspect that is not the "first" outlet.
For a long time kitchens have required 2 20 amp dedicated circuits.
But requiring GFCI's is fairly new. I don't have time to look it up, orginally only those with 6ft of the sink required GFCI and I believe that was the mid to late 80's. Then later all that served the counter tops.
But HO may well have added GFCI's some place.
But those dedicated circuits can also service dinning rooms and pantries. Also appliances. That includes DW, disposals, and refigerators.
So the GFCI could be else where. Even if there is not a GFCI, there might be a receptacle that is the first on that circuit.
When GFCI's where first required in bathrooms, garages, and outside it was common to use one GFCI and wire all of those on one circuit. The GFCI's that control an receptacle have been found in very strange places.
But that was typically not done in a kitchen becase they required a dedicated circuit.
But depending on the age of the kitchen and what kind of remudeling that has been done over the years anything is possible. So check any GFCI's in the guest bath and the garage for example.
BTW, technically you can't wire the undercounter lights off the kitchen small appliance circuit. But you can plug them in.
Bill
Thanks for the input on this problem.
The dishwasher is on a separate line, as is the grabage disposal and overhead can lighting. I checked the gfci in the powder room, and it had power. I cannot find another dead outlet in the entire house (basement and garage included).
Any chance I still have an issue with the original outlet that I shorted, so that it trips every time I reset the breaker? Would I hear the breaker trip every time I reset it if I am standing at the box?
The house is only 8 years old, so no other renovations. Also, you mentioned that it was incorrect to run the low voltage off of an appliance line, do I have a fire hazard here?
Thanks.
Tony
Any chance I still have an issue with the original outlet that I shorted, so that it trips every time I reset the breaker?
check to see if you have the black wires on the brass colored screws and the white on the silver screws.. also check to see if the griund wire is connected to the green screw and that it isn't accidently touching the screws on the hot side...
Would I hear the breaker trip every time I reset it if I am standing at the box?
yes...
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WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I will check the outlet this afternoong, but I believe I have it as you say here. I made sure ground to green, and basically separated the wires as they came off, white to the left (top and bottom), black to the right (top and bottom), so unless I wired the new outlet in upside down I would expect I did it right.
I will also check to make sure there are no nicks in the wire that are touching and tripping the breaker.
Because I do not hear the breaker tripping after every reset I am thinking it is not an issue with the outlet(s).
As always thanks for the ideas!
Tony
make sure the power is off when you go probing around ..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"The house is only 8 years old, so no other renovations."Then there should be some GFCI's protecting all of the receptacles. But I know only local community that has modified the code so that it is basically the 93 version and only requires those next to th sink to be protected.Wonder if there was a GFCI breaker in there at one time?A breaker that feeds a short you may or may not hear it trip as it is part of the same snap as when you turn it on. But you should feel the handle go loose. At least that is the way that most breaker act. The handle on a tripped breaker is not solidly in the on position and can be moved. Compare to another breaker." Also, you mentioned that it was incorrect to run the low voltage off of an appliance line, do I have a fire hazard here?"It is not a fire hazard, if properly done.I suspect that the requirement was so that the main overhead lighting would not go off if the circuit was overloaded and trip. But I am only guessing.As I said that you can plug the same type of lighting in. So it is not a real big deal, agian if properly done. But the electrican may or may not change it.
" cannot find another dead outlet in the entire house (basement and garage included)."Turn the breaker off and then check all of the receptacles in the dinning room and pantry or similar areas inlcuding any baseboard receptacle in the kitchen. Any that are dead or on that circuit, but before the counter top receptacles. So open those up and check the connections.
In the process of tearing down and re-doing the backsplash I killed the power (tripped the breaker) twice (no, I did not turn off the circuit ahead of time which I should have). The same outlet both times, the first caused an arc, the second came just from bumping the outlet. The first time I reset the breaker and all was fine, the second time I cannot get juice back.
I'm not understanding how you tripped the breaker while tiling the backsplash. I don't think I'd normally turn off the circuit for that job. I'm particularly concerned about the 2nd time when all you did is bump the outlet. To me, this means that there are some bare wires touching somewhere. You don't say if the boxes are metal or plastic. 12 guage wire is pretty stiff, and sometimes the wires can press themselves through the insulation, particularly if there's a little heat in the area. You could have a short you can't see either under a metal clamp, or even in the wall under a staple. I would have thought you would see (or smell) something (evidence of the arcing) when you replaced the outlet, which would make me think it's in the wall.
On the issue of the mystery GFCI sticker, you might want to invest in an inexpensive GFCI outlet tester. I think they're less than $15, and it will show you if the outlet is miswired as well.
Thanks Mike, the initial "tripping" was laziness on my part. After I removed the old tile I left the cover plate on tah one outlet, although it was not very tight. I had something plugged into the outlet, the plate dropped down onto the two prongs that were plugged into the outlet, it arced and popped the breaker. I reset the breaker and I had power to the line, although I did not use that outlet for the time being. A week or so later I bumped the outlet (no cover plate, and nothing plugged in this time) while grouting and the breaker tripped again. After this second time tripping the breaker I have not been able to restore power to the line.
I replaced the outlet as I figured I fried the first one, nothing looked strange, no bare wires, ground connected okay...also I believe plastic boxes, the house is only 8 yo and I think in other work I have done all of the boxes are plastic.
Thanks for the thoughts.....I'll (or likely a pro) will get it fgured out eventually.
How 'bout maybe the breaker itself failed?Bill
Bill,
replaced it this weekend...which is why I am so confused...anyway, have a pro coming out later this week....I'll post what he finds as the problem.
I am sure it is something else dumb on my part.