I’ve just put up PT 2X8 deck joists over the top of each I’ll be nailing a PT 2X4 (creating a ‘T’), and then from the underside, running SS screws up into the IPE decking. My question is, would it make sense for me to put a strip of #15 felt over the top of the PT 2X4 for the IPE to sit on? It seems this would prevent water from being absorbed into the PT 2X4 over the years ahead…but the downside might be that moisture that gets between the felt and the PT 2X4 would keep it forever damp and shorten the 2X4’s life.
All thoughts appreciated.
BruceM
Replies
I'd skip the PT 2x4s and fasten the ipe to the joists with hidden fasteners like eb-ty
http://www.eb-ty.com
Requires cutting a groove with a table saw, or biscuit cutter.
I assume you have access to the underside of the deck considering what you would like to do. You could go with eb ty's or an existing product that does what you would like to do is deckmaster, I believe http://www.deckmaster.com
I would not like the 2x4 idea you are suggesting because it will allow water a place to sit and also it would limit the ventilation Ipe needs.
I have to concur with eliminating the 2x4s. Plenty of other solutions available, don't reinvent the wheel.
A new technic is to use ice and water shield over the framework(joists, ledger brd, rimjoist, ect. and then apply the decking material. I don't know if some one has made this an actual product, we have been using ice and water shield cut into 3-4 inch strips that can wrap over the joist tops.
What Big Lou said ... and yes, it is now a product ... saw it at Home depot recently ... I think they had rolls of about 2-3 inch width for joists and about 6-8 width for beams ...
Grace makes a product specifically for decks, although even tar paper has been used.
http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/flashings/downloads/26324_Guide-A.pdf
The link is in pdf format, so you must have Acrobat reader to view.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Thanks for the thoughts. You guys are the best!!
I'm going to stick with the PT 2X4's, as stange thought it may seem, here on the N. Oregon coast (Manzanita), for several weeks a year, we get blazing sun, that will be on the deck almost the entire day....metal fasteners will burn the feet. Sorry, but I just don't like the Eb-Ty system. I've looked at it, held it in my hand and contemplated it over and over.
I do, however, like the Grace-over-the-2X4 suggestion, as this should seal that horizontal joint. And how about this: roll cold roof tar over the top of the 2X4's and secure the IPE down tightly against that?
And the deck is out the second floor (about 11' up), and the longest span is 7'9" for the 2X8's.
If I could get this board to accept file attachments, I'd attach a .jpg file to show what I've got (when I click on 'attach files', nothing happens)
BruceM
I would skip the 2x4. Use the self-stick rubber stuff on top of the joists. Then toe-screw up into the bottom of the ipe. Start about 1-1/2" down from the top of the joist, go up at 45* angle and the screw should come out at the top corner of the joist.
After you click "upload", you have to wait a long time. longer for bigger files. Reduce the size of the pictures to about 100k and they load pretty quickly.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Bruce - Step away from the tools. Take a breath and listen to people who may - through years of experience - know more than you.But maybe not. Please elaborate on the purpose of the 2x4 elements in your deck design. The installation shedule, fastening method and material, added benifit(s) and genisis of the idea. We are all interested in learning new design and construction methods.I, for one, am fasinated.Frankie>P<!---->font color=#61B2E0<!---->B<!---->/B<!---->/font<!---->—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Just have a totally different system to consider. When I was an apprentice, I worked for this old european guy for a bit - he had me toe-nail the deck boards down with 31/2" ardox finish nails. The nails were started about 1/8" down the side of the board and counter-sunk. I was very skeptical until I mada a mistake and tried to pull one up... bomb-proof. Oppositional nails... I've never tried it since, but just a thought. I don't know if there are true galvanized finish nails to work with the new acq lumber...
Saw the word 'ardox' and figured you were a Cannuk. I'm a displaced Cannuk myself, in Raleigh, NC, soon moving 'up north' to Conneticut. Grew up in Sudbury, where only God could grow a tree, had a girlfriend in Huntsville for a stretch way back when. Eh!Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
LOL, I thought the same. When I first moved down here I couldn't believe they didn't sell ardox. BTW I used to camp at Arrowhead Provincial Park near Huntsville.
How long have you guys been down there? What brought you there?
Forever.The beer.
Me, I follow SWMBO!Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
nothing new about that! I have unbuilt decks that were installed before 1900 with pitch felt strips protecting the top edges of the framing - usually spruce or hemlock
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Bruce:
I think that I'd skip the 2x4's and bump up to 2x10's for some extra bounce resistance and if you feel you must, run strips of Ice & Water to help protect the joists. Then I'd use a hidden fastner (eb-ty or similar) to fasten the decking. The bottom line is, I don't believe that the framing is the problem, the PT framing will probably outlast the decking by a very large margin and using 2x4's on the flats will simply trap moisture and speed up the deterioration of the decking.
BILL
The PT isn't going to outlast Ipe.
I'd go 50/50 on that one
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Do as Frankie says,
"Step away from the tools. Take a breath and listen to people who may - through years of experience - know more than you."
Bruce, please explain why you want to go with the extra, unnessasary step of scabbing a 2x4 on the joists
I believe that Bruce is the same guy I gave this idea to a few weeks ago, he was wanting to pocket screw all his decking through the top of his joists, weakening the joist. So I gave him the idea of centering the 2x4 on his joists and screwing his decking from the underside all he wanted.
The 2x4 serves no real structural purpose it just allows him to fasten his decking down without seeing any fasteners.My Mommy says I'm special.
Yep, that's the reason...so Stilleto, you gotta take some of this heat!
The other potential challange no one's called me on is screw length. Clearly, to get good holding power, the screws will have to penetrate the IPE as far 'up' as possible, without pushing the pointy end through the deck (that would be real tough on the bare feet). Max distance is 2.25"....but there's no such screw length. I could put in a washer to get it down to 1.95", but I'm thinking it would be better to simply clip off the end of the deck screws
Sound reasonable?
BruceM
I understand that you don't want fasteners showing, they look terrible on something nice like Ipe. I understood what you wanted to do with the 2x4's, and that is why I suggested deckmaster (http://www.deckmaster.com/). You could also use something like headcote trimhead screws (http://www.headcote.com/). The headcotes have a countersink and brown Ipe color and they are not very visible. Headcote are pretty pricey, about $45 per 100 square feet of decking.
Since the main concern is to hide the fasteners, why don't you go to the other option: Use the fasteners in a traditional manner--ie: screw down through the decking--and then hide the heads with plugs?
This is the way wide-plank flooring has been laid here for eons. It works well, and the look is very nice.
Plugging the screw heads isn't that big a deal. Get yourself a tapered plug cutter View Image from Lee Valley (they run about $17Can; click on the photo; it's a link) and you won't believe how easy it is to cut the plugs. Like night and day compared to standard plug cutters. And the plugs fit perfectly. You can usually shear off the top flush with a sharp chisel without needing to sand it down if you're not planning on sanding the deck once it's finished.
Use a countersink/drill bit with the quick-change kit that comes with it ($18 CanuckBucks) to drill the clearance holes and run in the screws, and you're laughing. Done. No need for water-trapping 2x4s, no visible fasteners.
And, yes, use the new Grace joist-top membrane, or some scraps of roofing membrane if you've got some of that lying around. Otherwise, use strips of 90# roll roofing and squirt a bead of roofing pitch on the joist top before you lay that on. Tack it in place with an HT-65.
Barbeque time. Break out the Guinness....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Two months ago I had to peel the decking off a deck I built over 20 years ago. HO has a traveling job, and a GF with apt. in NYC...3/4"x6" syp pt decking was totally neglected: piles of leaves, hurricane damage, plants in pots that haven't moved for 20 years.Hurricane damage was broken stuff, decking under plants had rotted.The joists were pretty close to installed condition.I've tried the Deckmaster system with trex...expensive and time consuming. Ebty seems even more labor intensiveI think I might like the 2x4 on joist deal...would certainly be a detail on the bands, too,hmmm I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
If what's already on the market isn't good enough for his particular taste and situation, he could always mount pt 2x2's alongside the top edge of each joist much like a bond for the rim joist does at the bottom of the joist. Screwing up through them would be a bit more challenging than crossed 2x4's but also allow for the snow and ice to run one strip to cover everything. Another option would be to slightly offset the 2x2 below the upper edge of the joist to keep his screws from being too long without all the headache of shortening all his ss screws. Cheaper, quicker, easier, as well as replaceable if any should fail over the course of time. I just hope he has help to stand (still) on the IPE when he's drilling then screwing or he might be at it next Christmas.
I had a similar situation to Snort, where I took up a deck that had been built 20+ years ago.
The cedar deck boards were quite weathered but virtually all of the PT joists were in near perfect condition, so I reused alot of them. I used I&W shield on the builtup beams but not the joists. I also thought of using hidden fasteners, but ended up using self drilling SS trim head screws from above, setting them a little below the surface of the boards.With the little bit of tear out due to the screw and a subsequent coat of Penofin, the holes are hardly obtrusive. Screwing from underneath is a tremendous amount of work and the gain may not be worth the pain in the long run.
TGNY, what is that decking material? Looks pretty nice.
It is Malaysian mahogany - sort of like a meranti I think. Was only $1.09/lf last year on Long Island, NY. Came bundled nice and straight.
That picture was taken before the 2nd coat of Penofin, so the color is deeper and wetter (oilier ?) than the picture.
nice
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same thing snort! Last week I redid a deck over EPDM that I had originally installed six years ago with CVGfir over PT. It had never been treated or cleaned from the day I finished it and most of the demo was as easy as raking leaves, except for taking the rusting fasteneres out. Replaced with pre-oiled IPE` on the same PT
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
most of the demo was as easy as raking leaves, except for taking the rusting fasteneres out.At least you had the salt to help with the fasteners<G> We had to sawzall the old decking into chunks, because the nails held so well. The part I had added was done with maze non spiral siders, two at each framing member...an older part, only 8 x 12, was fastened with three fatter small headed galvy 8d. What a bear to tear up. Almost all of the nails were in excellent condition.Now, check out these galvanized Sencos in a dock at our coast. Hurricane Ophilia, pounded the decking up and off...didn't take too much pounding<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Well, here's those sencos, dang I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
i like your idea dinosour but wouldnt there be a danger of water getting in under one of the plugs ?______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
i like your idea dinosour but wouldnt there be a danger of water getting in under one of the plugs ?
These tapered plugs fit much much better than standard straight plugs. I wasn't convinced till I bought one to get a specific size I didn't have in the old-style cutters. After using it once, I was a convert. In addition, these cutters shear the wood fibres while cutting the plug (instead of tearing them as a standard cutter does). It makes an incredible difference. The fit is so tight that if you match the colour and align the grain carefully, you almost literally cannot see the plug from six inches away once it's sheared off flush.
Even so, the real answer to your question is the same as the answer to the O.P.'s worry that the plugs will wiggle up proud after a few years: Glue. Squirt a drop or two of Weatherbond or a good polyurethane glue into each hole before pounding in the plug and you'll have to drill it (and the screwhead) out if you ever want to salvage the board....
Like many of the other posters in this thread, I just cannot see the upside to screwing up from the downside. At 11' up, he's gonna need staging under there (assuming there's room for it), or he'll be working off the last legal step of an 8' A-frame (if there's not) and moving the damned ladder every five minutes or so. Up and down and move, up and down and move, up and down and move.... Makes me tired just thinking about it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino
I have tried cutting plugs in another exterior application (a storage building I built before the house), and 3 years later, most have wiggled up proud of the surface and one has cracked, despite generous coatings of paint. The weather here on the N. Oregon coast is simply too brutal. Winter storms with high winds, salt air and blistering late summer sun with single digit relative humidity is too much for most exterior building materials/techniques that would otherwise work.
Thanks for the thought.
And my installation plan is to have DW stand on deck board while I drill pilots and drive in screws underneath
I thought about the 2X2 on each side of the joist idea, but this would create a 4.5" wide flat surface and require a good deal more W&I shield and run a higher risk, I think, of not sealing the screw threads.
BruceM
"And my installation plan is to have DW stand on deck board while I drill pilots and drive in screws underneath"Yep! That'll work...for about half an hourDude!, come on.Your using Ipe (hard dense oily wood)
PT deck structure (Will last longer than you)
I&W on the joists (proven method)SS counter sunk deck screws from the top are fine.There are other products/methods that will work fine also. But if you insist...
(Get couple of quick clamps as a back up when you DW gets tired) he, he, he!
And my installation plan is to have DW stand on deck board while I drill pilots and drive in screws underneath
In that case, just skip the screws entirely and glue the planks down with PL Premium. Get her to invite a bunch of her girlfriends over to help out, and they can all stand there on the deck having a hen party while the glue dries....
You wear ear protection. OSHA regs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
" Get her to invite a bunch of her girlfriends over to help out, and they can all stand there on the deck having a hen party while the glue dries...."he might not get too much work done... if they're wearin' skirts......... : )
Edited 5/7/2006 3:56 am by LEMONJELLO
I like the plug method(polyurethane glued) but we are talking IPE here, you would need to invest in quite a few plug cutters to make the required amount to finish the job.
I've never worked with Ipé myself; it's not a commonly available species up here and most of my clients don't operate in that budget range anyway. But I do know Lee Valley's 'Veritas' tools are better made than pretty much anything else you'll find out there.
I had given up on cutting plugs years ago because after every six or a dozen plugs, I had to scrape the burned wood off that damned cutter and re-sharpen it. What a drag. Then I tried one of the Lee Valley tapered plug cutters, and it was like night and day. That plug cutter goes into hardwood like it was butter. The difference is that it actually shears the wood as it drills in, instead of tearing its way through the way a standard one does. The cutter hardly gets warm in use.
I think you have to try it to believe it, though. I know I did. They're not that expensive; it would be worth a try with the Ipé.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The density of Ipe would make plugs tough. Ipe is a really tight, dense wood and even drilling with a normal bit is tough. The bits heat up a lot and very quickly, also the wood burns itself into the grooves on the bits. When you drill, you need to go in an 1/8' inch, then back out so the bit clears itself, then back in, and so on. It drills fine, you just need to go very slowly and deal with the density. I'm sure you could definitely cut plugs but I don't think its worth it considering the number needed and how long each one would take to cut.
I'm gonna have to buy a stick of that stuff one of these days and play around with it to see what can and can't be done with it. Right now, I'm just making eddicated guesses....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
send me your ady and I'll ship you some samples
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
On the way. Don't send more than a small piece; don't want the customs weenies getting hinky. I'll know as soon as I try to cut a couple of plugs if I was dreaming....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
DDay...yep, you described it well.
Yesterday, I put up the deck boards on the W. side of the house...wow, is that stuff hard! At first I thought my bit was dull, so I carefully resharpened it...and it made little difference. If you don't pull it back and clear the clogged flutes, it'll just get too hot to touch.
What is all that yellow stuff coming out of the wood when I cut it?
And in doing a small 3" cutout for one of my downspouts, my jig saw blade would burn the wood...the smell reminds me of a pig farm I once visited as a kid.
BruceM
the yellow is just some variation in the wood. The Ipe I've used has had a few pieces with some green tones, yellow, etc. You could not tell which are which after you put down some penofin.
I use sharp bits, go slow and when drilling lots of holes, I'll let it rest after 10 holes. It is so much like drilling steel, slow and keep the bit absolutely straight. I wonder if drilling Ipe might work better with a slow speed, like drilling metal, rather than high speed. The only difference is metal will not stick to the bit whereas the wood still might stick on the bit. The slow speed might keep the flutes from getting clogged though.
Here is a tip for drilling ipe with twist bits. Peck drill as you have been, but each time you withdraw the bit, dunk it in a small can of water.This does two things at once. First, it cools the bit and stops any smoking. Second, it makes the wood in the flutes instantly swell up and fall out of the flutes. What doesn't fall out will get knocked out when you go back into the hole to drill some more. This works well with all dense species, and saves time, tools, and aggravation.Bill
I was not going to use a finish and just let it silver out. but after putting down more deck, it started misting out and the wet surface of the decking is beautiful.....so I'm thinking about doing a finish at least once (I'm sealing the cut ends with Rhino Deck as I go)
You mentioned Penofin....would this be your only recommendation? And can you get this at the box stores?
BruceM
Penofin is what I've used and it works well. My grandmothers house has a farmer porch and a rear deck, both Ipe. The farmers porch gets little to no sun and the penofin has lasted 2 years so far, the rear deck is exposed to full sun most of the day and all weather and the finish needs to be applied each spring. Applying the finish is simple and doesn't take very long, no pressure washing or anything like that.
The only two products I've seen mentioned to finish Ipe are Penofin (http://www.penofin.com/) and Messmers (http://www.messmers.com/). You will not be able to find either at a big box, but local paint and Ipe dealers will have one of them. I use the Penofin Marine oil finish which is the same as the hardwood formula but keeps the color of the Ipe, the hardwood formula will darken the Ipe. Penofin's service is very good, they were the ones who steered me towards the marine oil since I wanted something clear. Call around for prices, a good small lumberyard in my area is where I buy it (they are expensive for everything since they are so small), they are $35 per gal., some others are close to $50.
Here's some other info you might not have. http://www.ironwoods.com/ResInstall.asp
Sounds like you've got a plan and are sticking to it, so I won't bother trying to change your mind on your installation technique. I just wanted to let you know that 2 1/4" SS screws are available if that's what you're looking for:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product.asp?pid=0822-FA5View Image
I'll gladly take some of the heat. I've used this method and it turned out excellent. Sure it takes more time than pumping screws from the top, but if time isn't an issue do it the way you want. It's your job with your name on it when you leave, so knock yourself out.
As for screw length I made a grinding jig for my bench grinder, it had a hole in it slightly bigger than the screw and 2-1/4" long. Grind each screw down to the block of wood. It doesn't take that long to do boxes of screws.
The idea of doing this I came up with when a homeowner said she didn't want to see a single deck screw, guess what, she got it and gladly paid me very well for it. If you aren't charging any more than a normal price for this job forget it you will lose money.
My Mommy says I'm special.
we have visions of living Manzanita way someday
any view lots available?
John: the problem you'll face is that everybody seems to want a walk-to-the-beach lot. Prices have just gotten obscene...too many people with lots of $$ and a fixed number of lots. A 50X100 beach-walk lot, if you can find it, will likely start at $350,000. DW and I were just plain lucky...in 1985 I was in the AF, just made Captain and a HUGE $450/month raise...figured we'd buy a beach lot, which at the time, they had trouble giving away! It is better to be lucky than smart.
Lemmon...as long as the sun is shining, my DW is happy to put her chair on the unsecured deck board. But if the sun gets behind the clouds much longer than a few minutes, it'll be back to the long clamps. And the idea of having the ladies auxilliary is a good one...I can just hear myself from under the deck..."would everybody please move down to the next joist?"
and thanks for the link to the 2 1/4" screws, diesel. I thought I'd checked that web site. I guess I missed it.
Stilleto, how would a block of wood work as a stop...one of the more critical steps in this fastening method? I was going to get one of those round allen-screw type stops, as I'm afraid my old reliable tape-wrapped-around-the-bit method wouldn't be accurate enough. Do you mean to take something like a 3/4" X 3/4" piece of hardwood, drill a hole down the long axis and cut it to length so just the right drill length sticks out for the drill depth? If so, my Makita 14.4's chuck jaws kinda stick out to a point and would tend to gradually dig into the block, changing the drilling depth.
BruceM
Epoxy a washer onto the block of wood if your drill chuck jaws stick out of the drill.My Mommy says I'm special.
McFeeleys will have a nice set screw stop to include w/ your screw order and at those prices I guess we'll have to stay at your abode
thanks John
If you get a stop for your drill bit (the ring type with a set screw) be sure you get the type that clamp straight, and not the type where the set screw is run into the flute of the drill bit. The later type don't stay square relative to the bit.I hope what I wrote makes sense. I'm not sure how to state it accurately, but I have some of the cheaper type and they do not work well.
i'm pretty sure that GRK Canada Torx head screws have some at 2-1/8" or thereabouts. They size them metricly. you can also angle them in to avoid overdrive
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I agree with the deckmaster solution. It is basically what you are proposing, and the screws are the correct size!
Stilletto,
Interesting technique. Is there any reason why 5/4 or 1x4, instead of the 2x4 wouldn't work? Seems to me it might help solve the screw length problem.
D
The weather in Michigan is the reason for the 2x4, holds up better in the weather changes than 5/4 stock. I screwed the 2x4 down with 3" screws makes for a real solid base to screw decking through. This method is faster than people think, if you have access to the bottom of the deck you can do this with just a few screw clamps, a drill bit stop made out of a chunk of wood for predrilling, and a cordless drill.
My Mommy says I'm special.
If ! You are going to do it with the 2x4 ?
A couple of things to ponder:
-gotta keep your spacing (obviously)
-predrilling each hole (from the una-neeth, the deck)
-keeping them clamped in place while doing said, then screwing the deck board.
questions:
-How far up is the deck? (Crawling around in the dirt or up on a ladder or tippy toeing?)
-Solo? Man thats a lot of shuffling tools, ladders, boards and clamping, cutting, drilling and screwing.
-Just asking...
-If your deck is about waist level from the ground, are you gonna duck under each joist for each screw for eack board? My back hurts already.
- basically is it worth it versus available products which will allow you to work from the top?
If so, go for it! I've done enough deck to figure this one out for myself.
Not trying to be negative, just my two cents. There are a lot of other more experienced here trying to give you a hand.
edit: What Frankie and Big lou said too...
Also, I just read your later post that it's 11 ft up 2nd floor deck!? Try one board for us all and report back here.
Edited 5/5/2006 11:42 pm by LEMONJELLO
Edited 5/6/2006 2:15 pm by LEMONJELLO
I apply two coats of bitumen rubber to the tops of my joists before laying decking.
hey Bruce .
forget the 2X4's that's a water trap, go for an undermount fastener that is if you have the room to fasten your deck boards from below
THE JAMAR HAMMER
The PT has chemical to keep it from rotting.
But the felt will keep the bottom of the ipe wet constantly and probably accelerate its demise.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Ipe really needs very few screws.Its heavy and wont move.
Im sold now on using ss trim screws from above. The most you need is one on each joist in an alternating pattern.I also use pl on the joists.
In most cases I think the hidden fasteners offer too little benifit for alot of extra labor.
If you go with ebty,I would not recomend the pregrooved decking.I think it encourages the board to curl at the edges and collects water.