What is an ideal joist span for a deck with 2 x 6 treated southern yellow pine (SYP) #2 joist, and #1 select structural grade 2 x 6 SYP treated decking? The joist can be 16″ or 24″ O.C.
As a design / build company I have ideas, charts and plan, but in trying to settle a bet I am not allowe to influence your suggestions.
The bottom of the joist are barely above grade with no room for helper beam(s) under the joist. The client wants to be as low as possible. 2 x 8 joist are not an option.
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
Probably about a 7' span at 16" O.C., but that close to the ground and I'd be more worried about it rotting out prematurely.
7-8' in your zone. Planning a home for juvenile rattlesnakes?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Not many rattle snakes in a private, gated, golf course, country club community.
You never commented on my stiffback design.
Edited 1/10/2006 8:42 pm ET by txlandlord
That stiffback was not treally unique to my experience, Sorry to have not commented. I did re-send a drawin in other format to a couple guys who asked for it. Didn't hear back from them either.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, well I probably could have figured taht out, based on my realization of your experince level as evidenced in your post.
The detail works very well in stick framing large spans. We do lots of stick framing here in TX.
"The bottom of the joist are barely above grade with no room for helper beam(s) under the joist. The client wants to be as low as possible. 2 x 8 joist are not an option."
Then go with flush beams made up of multiple 2x6's or 6x6's if you have 2" to spare you can use a 2x8 flush girder sitting on footings and nail the joists into the beam with hangers. Then you can make the deck as long as you want with 2x6's.
From one old retired framer to someone still doing it. That is exactly what I designed...I have four sections, divided by DBL flush beams, three 6'10"span and one 7'3"
I design with 16" O.C. and with a 16' width perpendicular to the joist direction, I have come 1/3 from the outside and doubled the joist closest to the 1/3 measurement.
No butt joints, 2 x 6 #1 Select Structural Grade Deck / flush screwed after boring w / countersink bit and 1/2" radiused edge sides and ends.
Thanks guys, I think I won the bet, unless an engineer gets involved. Yuk, yuk.
Now, if I could get the attach files button to work, I could post the CAD drawing, and a pic of the 2500 SF home we built inside the George R. Brown Convention Center in 4 days.
Someone may have told me who to contact about the attach files button, but I have been too busy thru the holidays. Tell this old low tech country boy again.
Thanks guys, I think I won the bet, unless an engineer gets involved. Yuk, yuk
You would still win.......for your 2 x 6's.....and 50#/sq ft live load (for wild parties)....
16" oc max span for #2 w/ deflection limited to L/360 (0.28") is 8'-8"
24" oc max span for #2 w/ deflection limited to L/360 (0.236") is 7'-1"
BTW 12" oc buys you a 10'-0" span
We went 16" O.C. / DBL flush beams with joist spans less that 8' / DBL joist @ 1/3 points
They should be able to dance the night away.
Edited 1/15/2006 12:43 am ET by txlandlord
I'd say 8' max. Because of your good grade of 2x6 decking you can maybe go 24" O.C. but thats kind a iffy - personally, I've never used that decking.
Span charts may say you can go further, but you will have bounce in the floor system.
Go get a code book and look it up.
I referenced several sources and had a design prior to my post, but I am sure you did not understand.
Are you blonde?
I understand quite well. Are you blind?You asked about the appropriate joist span for decking. Whether house or outside deck, you should be able to figure out the span required by referencing the code book for the code followed in your area. Period.You named the type of lumber in use, the span, etc. etc. All that information is noted in charts in your code book. if you have load issues that are not covered in the codebook, unless you build for yourself, you might want to consult with an engineer to protect yourself.But then again, if you are a landlord, I guess the cheapest alternative available is more your interest.
girlbuilder........Looked everywhere can't find any info..........how in the world do you build a girl ?........:)
There's an instructional video, Wierd Science, available.
Samt
It just happens in nature, although so many cultures try to define and mold 'em, the best thing is to let them build themselves. Took me many years to figure that out, once I did I've been fine. :)I'm just a humble building girl.
girlbuilder.....you go girl.......uh...I mean builder......wish there were more like you.
Thanks nails :) Real men always back up the girls.
and wimps back up FROM the girls;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
When people ask me what its like to work with men, I tell them that generally men are great. And that's the truth. Most men are just people and they know we all gotta work together to survive. Just a few loud men get so much attention and are allowed to define the rest of their gender. When the truth is that the best men are humbly there, ready to do what's got to be done and act with dignity and respect while doing it.
rightMost girls are just people too...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I learned that before I could ride a bicycle - Sugar and spice and everything nice, that's what little girls are made of
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin.....ah you silver tongued devil........my wife read your post and smiled and said that is a true gentleman.
OK, I do have trouble seeing, wearing glases now....I am 51.
Please understand that the plan was already on paper, and my original post told you I had good references. My obligations for the post was not to place ideas of what I designed to influence post, but to get opinions from BTers.
Read SamT's post. I do not mind going over the details of what has already been posted for the slow folks. Do you ned me to review anything else or can we move on now?
I am not picking on you becasue you are a girl. I have got a couple and married to a great one.
My employee told me I could not span over 5', hence the bet.
Edited 1/14/2006 10:34 am ET by txlandlord
And I agree I was probably short with you.I spend all day figuring joists spans, rafter lengths etc. and well...it just gets old and I am sometimes tired and probably shouldn't post on this forum in such a state of mind. There's a part of my mind when I see, "What is the correct joist span for...?" that goes, oh not again!Also, it seems that many people want quick and easy answers without doing their own homework and then will blame the messenger when something isn't perfect or what have you. In addition, joists spans involve what loading, your code in your area, etc. etc. I am sure you did post such information, i just wasn't receiving it. Your apology is taken if you'll also accept mine.
...or should I more humbly say. I accept your apology, will you accept mine?
If I want to build a 60' deck with no girders out of 2x10's, can I glue (3) 20' pieces together for my joists using crazy glue?...........................;-)Joe Carola
you
can do any damn thing you want to, Joe!Can we stand around and laugh?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For 60'x2x10s I would use Gorilla glue instead of crazy.
SamT
Are you sure Gorilla glue is ACQ compliant?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
depends whether its a girl girilla
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
save money and use driftwood and elmers. They'll be a little crooked, but so what? You saved a buck.
I remember the framing people we were framing for. They got all bent out of shape when I refused to use 2 x 8 ceiling joists over a 24' span and install a pull-down stair for the customer. And when my partner asked them how they expected us to reach up to nail the hip rafters in place, their suggestion was to place a king post on the 2 x 8's for strength prior to standing on them. Sure.They changed their plan and ordered the 2 x 12's like we told them to after some wrangling.
Believe it or not I can't tell you how many garages I've framed with 24' 2x8's for ceiling joists. It was a pain but once you get them up and nailed in place you lay plywood down tacked in and then put your first row of strong back at 8' and then nail two rows of plywood after that permanently cutting out around the stairwell and then nail your next row of strongback and the ceiling is solid. Now build your scaffold and hang your commons and hips and work like a gentleman or gentlewoman.....;-)Joe Carola
I have framed 24' spans with 2 x 8 and used a stiffback detail I faxed to Piffin. I still can not seem to get my Attachment button to work. Piffin may know where the stiffback detail was posted.
As a framer you can propbly get the picture without the detail.
Joist @ 16" O.C. / DBL the joist every 4' / flat 2 x 6 on top of the 2 x 8 joist on the exterior plate side @ 8' from the plate / 2 x 8 upright nailed to the 2 x 6 on the inside (ridge side) / 2 x 4 blocking nailed to each joist flush with the top of the 2 x 8 upright and flush with the bottom of the joist / add another 2 x 8 on the inside (ridge side) of the 2 x 4 blocking / run purlin braces on top of the 2 x 6 with purlin as typical
Submitted to my engineer / he likes it and approves it for certain applications.
The thing is, that we were framing by the square foot with a company that didn't want to pay for extras, also the building had 12' ceilings, so putting up all the lumber was a bit more cumbersome.But I see your points and I'm sure they would have worked --- if they would have compensated for our time and the extra lumber involved, but they never wanted to and were too ignorant to understand what we were doing in the field (they regularly bragged that not one person in the office ever picked up a hammer in their lives) except for one guy who had about 150 years of experience if you counted all his stories back to back.But, it was an experience all the same.
The last garage was a detached garage that I framed with 24' 2x8 ceiling joists we had two rows of strongback with a 2x4 flat and 2x6 on edge nailed together and into the top of the ceiling joists. Then we had 2x4's nailed vertical and 2x4 collar ties @ 32" oc. With attic stairs and the whole garage was sheetrocked.Joe Carola
Yeah, 2 x 8 in a Garage ceiling works well if properly supplemented with stiffbacks and bracing to include collar ties. I looked at one we framed several years ago, we used the detail I described. The client had light storage above the joist. I crawled up on a ladder and eyeballed the joist bottoms....all straight and true.
Today I just framed the rafters with 2x8's 24' but there will be a microlam underneath it tomorrow with a kneewall.Joe Carola
No problem here GB.....I guess a lot of us are entrepenural (can't see, can't spell), Type "A" personalities with leadership qualities who are highly confident and ready to fight when challenged.
There is going to be trouble when asking questions, and solicitating for answers and / or opinions.
Edited 1/15/2006 1:03 am ET by txlandlord
Besides girls, what do you build?
I remember your posting some ideas that seemed idealic (unrealistic to some posters), and I recommended a couple of books by Susan Sarahka and Jim Tolpin. I got a new book by Susan for Chrsitmas Inside the Not So Big House, but have not started reading it yet.
Yes, I brought up the energy efficient building ideas and haven't done anythign about it because I've been too damn busy with trying to make a living.I have a company, me and a 40-year carpenter. I went to school for building residential as well -- makes up for time lost, somewhat.We do residential remodeling right now. We framed for a company for about a year. My partner has done everything from formwork to residential and commercial frame to finish as well as bridge building. I learn from him, but I am the pusher and I run all other functions of the business as well.
> ... books by Susan Sarahka ....
It's Sarah Susanka, a surprisingly easy name to scramble up. It took me a long time to get it fixed right in my head. I kept trying to make "Susanna Somethingorother" out of it.
-- J.S.
Not to be rude, but "as a design/build company" you should use an engineer, not taking guesses and making bets. I am sure your client would be thrilled to know their deck was designed based on a bet and anonymous opinions expressed on a forum...
DG/Builder
Might be appropriate to lighten it up a little. Tex has been with us a while now and I think we all know him to be a solid tradesman and businessman. I am sure he is not going to use anonymous advice to size his framing.
I would think that any design/builder that doesn't know how to use a span book is a complete hack.Based on the knowledge that the Tx says he has "ideas, charts and plan" I would assume this means he knows what the books say the span limits are.What could an engineer add to his question that would be worth paying him his rate?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Based on the knowledge that the Tx says he has "ideas, charts and plan" I would assume this means he knows what the books say the span limits are.
"ideas, charts and plan" and 35 years in the building business, with the first 25 spent as a framer who took on more and more whole building responsibilities as the 25 years went by. I am now a custom home builder / desinger and am venturing into residential developement of a 100 acre parcel I own.
Aside from this, I have used Softplan CAD since 1997, I am now using Version 13 which has built in span charts, I have paper span charts to reference, three engineering firms that I can consult , three new home frame crews who somtimes have a better feel for what is right than the engineers and two very experienced deck builders.
No problem here. My post was in having fun with one of my employees, and setting some terms for the bet. I did not take his money as I had too many advantages.
Thank you Mr. Blakemore.
I would assume that those who posted (assuming that I did not have an idea what I was doing) by not throughly reading and understanding all of my original post also miss things on their project plans. I am sure they suffer enough from their lack of due diligence.
I am sure that if they are running companies, they are like the Portland Trailblazers management who took Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordon.
Edited 1/11/2006 10:31 pm ET by txlandlord
as a design/build company" you should use an engineer, not taking guesses and making bets. I am sure your client would be thrilled to know their deck was designed based on a bet and anonymous opinions expressed on a forum...
No guessing here. Read the original post and try to understand. You could also read my reply with experience and resources sighted, and see the post to Framer. The post to Framer is a design I had on paper prior to the post.
My client is one of the pitching coaches for the Houston Astros.
Do your clients suffer becasue of your comprehension level?
This thread reminds me of my in-laws' house built by Toll Bros. a couple years ago in an upscale development. Total and absolute POS. Not the only one either. One of the neighbors had to eventually move out and sue because the wind literally blew into the house where a wall had separated and they wouldn't fix it.
So yeah, I'm duly impressed with many builders' fame and fortune. And it has nothing to do with whether they and their employees are willing or capable of nailing two 2x4s together. The Astros coach, that's a different matter. Now that guy surely knows a good builder when he sees one :)
On another note, the original post didn't say if the deck was residential or the back of a standing-room-only bar with an occupancy limit of 500. And a few other such minor details. Might make a small difference...
DG/Builder
> The bottom of the joist are barely above grade with no room for helper beam(s) under the joist. The client wants to be as low as possible.
Back in 1971, we did a temporary wood walkway, three 2x6's tied together underneath with 2x4's on the flat, and all in direct contact with the ground. We figured, just let it rot, and in 3-5 years we'll replace it. Its only purpose was to keep the mud off our shoes. It's doug fir, painted with Jasco Termin-8. And it's still in use and in fairly good shape today.
When you're that close to the ground, why bother with long spans and deflection? You got that handy planet earth nearby, so use it. ;-)
-- J.S.
You all can do that down in the warm dry SW. Up here we need 18" ventilation under the joists, sometimes cheat it to 10-12", but the soils can heave 3-4" in winter, and add ice on top of that......I'm curious the nature of this bet, knowing that tex is capapble of reading and applying the tables. There's something more to this stopry here
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
See my post to Framer for a description of my design.
Ah, yes. With a maximum span of 7'3", you are putting that conveniently located planet to good use.
If rot and termites are a concern, and the client can be convinced that the smell goes away in a couple weeks, that Jasco copper napthenate treatment should make your frame last just about forever. I'm sure you know this, but for the sake of discussion, it's important never to have a gap between deck planks land over any of the flush beams. Crud and the moisture it retains should fall through to the ground, not sit on top of the beam.
-- J.S.
Quote from your original post: "The client wants to be as low as possible."
Yeah, I guess I do have comprehension problems. Suggestions: 1. Client should lie down 2. Client should walk stooped and not wear shoes. 3. Client should spend time in the basement or a coal mine.
Talking about the kettle calling the pot "blonde"...
DG/Builder
The subject was "deck". The deck was to be as low as possible. Comprehend the subject, all items relating to the deck.
According to the Southern Pine Council (http://www.southernpine.com), you can get away with 9' 5" on 16" centers or 7' 10" on 24" centers. This is for wet service (like decks), #2 visually-graded lumber. It is also for the lowest load that they list (40 live, 10 dead). You might not want to go with this, but you were asking for the absolute longest span. Of course, your local code may have a higher standard.
If you go to 12" centers, you can span 10' 4".
This is a separate question, but why use such heavy decking, especially if you might go with 16" centers?? Span tables don't take into account what kind of decking/sheathing you use.
IMHO, if you want the longest span with 2x6 joists, go with 12" centers and use 5/4 decking.
So what do we get if you win your bet ;-)?
"According to the Southern Pine Council (http://www.southernpine.com), you can get away with 9' 5" on 16" centers or 7' 10" on 24" centers. This is for wet service (like decks), #2 visually-graded lumber. It is also for the lowest load that they list (40 live, 10 dead). You might not want to go with this, but you were asking for the absolute longest span. Of course, your local code may have a higher standard.If you go to 12" centers, you can span 10' 4". "None of that means a thing without citing deflection or knowing what his required live loads are though. Some decks are allowed to be designed to only a 20#load, and others must be designed to handle 120#/ft
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The deck choice was the HOs choice, and the only SYP deck product avaliable in 18' lengths, which were required on a section. No butt joints.
So what do we get if you win your bet ;-)?
How about some Christmas Gift cookies?
Edited 1/15/2006 12:59 am ET by txlandlord
I'm thinking cabin fever is starting to set in.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
All we need is the Shaky 'n Disturbed guy to start posting on this one.
Innocent tip for you, don't send him a private email.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
He's the best.
Just ask him.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Landlordy,
With all the flack you're getting about being an idiot, I had to go back and make sure I was following the right thread.
Yep, You know what you're talking about.
Yep, you have all the required resources and data.
Yep, You're only asking for a second opinion to settle a bet.
As a design / build company I have ideas, charts and plan, but in trying to settle a bet I am not allowe to influence your suggestions. 68122.1
I guess it's some of the others here who may be blind.
SamT
Thanks Sam, but you may need to review and explain your top level comprehension to girlbuilder.