I know… this has been discussed so many times before, and still I need help.
We’re putting in a small deck on our house. It’s already framed, 16″ OC. We’re trying to decide what type od decking to install.
Cedar is pretty much out. Around here every yard stocks 5/4 x 6 cedar decking with radiused edges. It’s the rattiest looking wood they have, all fuzzy, big knots, short pieces, from trees that are about 3 minutes old. It’s so soft you could easily make a nice pastrami sandwich on it and it’d be easier to chew than some of the rye bread I like.
All of the composite decking is out. DW won’t have it, and I’m concerned that it’s unproven anyway.
So, we turn to the ‘hardwood’ decking. We’d like to use a material that’s sustainably harvested if we can.
So, we looked at decking yesterday at one yard. They have what they call ‘Mahogany’… looks to me a lot like Phillipine mahogany, reasonably tight grain and a little bit heavy, but certainly nothing like Honduras. Nice long pieces, straight, flat, etc. I have no idea what the longevity of this material would be, and how it would perform outdoors. Probably comes from the world’s most deforested country, althought the guy didn’t know anything about that.
They have another… ‘Brazilian Redwood’ with a trade name ‘Exoro’. Really nice stuff, heavier’n’sh!t, looks almost identical to Ipe and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t. Virtually guaranteed to come from Amazon clearcuts.
A third… ‘Ironwood’… gotta be Ipe. They didn’t have any on hand.
Both the Redwood and Ironwood come with a 25 year warranty, no finish required. That sounds promising.
The local yard brings in Ipe, which I’ve used a few times for small projects and am fine with, except for the likelihood of it being a rape-and-pillage material.
DW came up with a magazine article that talks about decking. Apparently there are a few uncommon materials that are sustainably harvested… ‘Tauari’, ‘Massaranduba’, ‘Machiche’… never seen or heard of these.
Anyone solved this one lately? What’d ya’ do?
Replies
I like ipe pretty much. check my posts in photo gallery.
Hiya David...
Don't have a lot to contribute, but I don't believe Ironwood and Ipe are the same thing. Also found this site that had some good Ipe info...
http://ipe-wood.com/tech.html
PaulB
Paulironwood is a generic name for any dense wood. Usually dense enough to sink in water. There are a couple of US and Mexican woods that are called ironwood. IIRC hornbean is one and there is a desert ironwood.Ironwoods is a trade name used by one IPE importer.
A lot of Ipe` is marketed under the trade name Ironwoods, but you can also buy it without that beautiful title.
It is a wood thatis very common and was so hard to mill beforecarbide tooling thatit was the normal victim of slash and burn agriculture in south America. The market has now been developed and jobs for workers and management of the forests assure better conditimns for all. Most of what you can buy is ecologically and sustainabley managed so your conscience can rest easy.
the Phillipine mahoganies are a broad classification of hardwoods from that region of the globe, and include woods for decking also marketed as Merantii. I don't know about the harvesting policies but the quality of the woods varies considerably from one batch to the next. Another wood similar to both is Camberra. It has a grain similar to Ipe` but not as dense and heavy. The Merantiis are more often open grained. they may have internal elements that resist rot as like the Ipe` but the open grain bothers me for water retention when things freeze and checking can then occour.
I have learned all this from my own research and from a discussion with the wood scientist consulting for a major lumber broker in New England here.
I go with Ipe` unless I have to lift it three stories up in the air. Then I use Camberra, pre-oiled at the factory.
My own deck is port Orford cedar and holds up well. It is one of the denser cedars.
It used to be common to use CVG fir here for decks but the quality of that oproduct has taken quite a dive here in the past ten years. When I compare the cost of the CVG fir with 15-20% waste to the Ipe` with almost no waste, the cost is close.
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Piffin,
Do you source th PO Cedar locally?
I did a deck with it over 15 years ago, the customer, my friends dad spec'd it.
I was able to find it only through one supplier quite some distace away, who then never carried it again.
From time to time I ask around for it. The response is usually; "huh?, never heard of it".
I thought it was beautiful stuff, and easy to work with. I am not sure how it holds up, as I have not visited that job since.
I thought I read somewhere that it is harvested in very limited quantities only.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
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It does have a fairly limited following, coming from a small area in the NW between Oregon and AK sporadicly. I don't use as much any more because I get a toxic reaction to the dust.It is a beautiful grained wood. I have seen clear samples at t trade show and asked about that, because the stock carried at my local lumberyard is tight knot lumber. Apparantly all or most of the clear stuff from low on the trunck is sent to Japan for premium dollars, while the cull treetops are sold here in the states. The Japanese revere cedar so they are will to pay up for it.Anyway - any lumberyard deals with one or more brokers to buy their wood. Any lumber broker can find them any wood from anywhere in the world. The problem is whether you individually or your market area collectively can order enough to make it worthwhile for them to get it freighted in.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not sure where you are located david... but you might find cypress for good value from a local mill. I've been wanting to try one with it... nice and hard and beautiful tonal differences in color.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
David, I fight this battle often with customers. The 'standard wisdom' around here is PT lumber, which I will do almost anything to avoid installing, especially where little feet will be running barefoot over it. The logical option is cedar--and cost starts becoming a major factor. There is eastern white cedar that we can get from local mills, but they do have a high waste factor. The upside is the cost is much lower. On the other hand, we can special order a run of 5/4 R.E.D. western red cedar, pay the price, and have very little waste. Still, a lot of the places here are second homes or chalets, so price resistance is high.
The remaining option is spruce; same stuff all our 2x's are cut from. (In fact, a lot of the decks here are built out of standard 2x6. But this does a clunky job and wastes material.) I can usually find a mill willing to nick a few hundred board feet of 5/4x6 off their run before they ship it to the PT tanks.
In a covered-deck situation, no special measures are necessary to preserve the wood. For an exposed deck, there are several techniques I have developed over the years to prolong the life of spruce.
All end grain needs to be sealed. I use teak oil usually.
The top surface of the main support beam is coated with roofing pitch and flashed over with a heavy galvanized flashing before the joists are nailed on top of it.
I staple a 2" wide strip of 100# roll roofing on top of all joists before nailing on the decking. This does double duty: it acts as a flashing for the joist, and it also coats the nail with tar as it is driven through the felt, which helps prevent water getting into the nailhole and stops most rust-rot around the nail. (Note that the joists in this particular photo were 4x4's--special situation outside my control.)
View Image
Galvanized nails are necessary as a minimum; if you want to go beyond that, use SS screws--but be aware they are a pain to work with; the heads strip out quite easily. Try to get Robertson-pattern heads.
Additionally, I will recommend that the decking be treated with a high-quality penetrating oil stain or with several coats of teak oil. Teak oil is one of the best protectors I know of; it has the additional quality of not being slippery when wet (which is why teak was favoured so much for boat decks).
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You live relatively close to Surrey, B.C.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
I used "Angelium Pedra", a farmed Brazillian Mahogany look-alike which is certified. Finished with Penofin.
I pay 2.49 CDN/ft. It's nice stuff.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
Aaron, were you posting a link to a source for the material you mention. It took me to the 'Start Reading' page, which has whatever post is most recent, in any thread. Ipe here is about $2.50 US, so your price sounds good.
For quite awhile Ipe was called Ironwood here in the east. Ipe has become a favorite for decks but it can come in a variety of ways. 3/4" x 4", 5/4" x 6" square edge and radiused, mostly PAD (partially air dried). Another similar product is Meranti with origins in Africa, both like to move. In the US we seem to have a wider availability of South American species for decking. Since you are in Washington, have you seen any Alaskan yellow cedar, sometimes called cypress? Every now and then we get some in 5/4" x 6" with radiused edges also 1 1/2" both in either clear or knotty. It looks a bit like spruce, has a nice tight surface texture, easy to work, stable and decay resistant. A favorite in the boat building community since it is strong but light, available KD. Correct Deck is a Maine made composite product, no maintenence, and it doesn't pucker like Trex and some others, you need to pre drill but that's not a bad idea with any hard decking when attaching through the face. There are railing materials too.
http://www.correctdeck.com/index.htm
I've posted these pictures before but I'm not sure how to direct you to them so I'll repost. The decking on the pergola is knotty yellow cedar, the small deck is meranti. Both have red cedar railings.
"Live Free, not Die"
use PT and move on
get the top grade
The Ipe is very nice stuff, fun to work with. Second growth redwood will not last twenty five years in my climate (PNW) unless you maintain it religiously. In the late 90's, when the Japanese economy was tanking, there was a ton of P.O. cedar on the market. Now I cant get it unless I special order it, and I'm not that far from Port Orford.
All the decks I build these days, two or three a year, are decked with Trex. There was a lot of consumer prejudice against it when it first came out but now it is more common here than wood. There is a coffee house here that was one of the first to use Trex when it was new on the market. They used it on their front deck and entry porch. I usually ask my customers to take a look at it when they are considering deck materials because it has held up very well under heavy use for about ten years now. The argument I have is that most decking turns grey after a couple of years anyway. Folks always say that they are going to keep their deck clean and oiled but its one of those things...
Tom