The process?? Write them a blank check, and mortgage your younguns.
If ignorance is bliss why aren’t more people happy?
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If ignorance is bliss why aren’t more people happy?
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Your state should have a site similar to the web site at the bottom for WA state, it will give the setup & regualtions for water quality.
I built a drill rig and drilled my own 8" well a few years ago (very learning process, took all summer) and could not find any PRACTICAL books on relatively shallow wells such as 300 ft and less. There are lots of high tome deep well (3 miles deep) books and technical articles on mud viscosity, high temperature logging apparatus, bits, etc. , but almost none on small time practical stuff. The best were web sites about drilling substinence wells in Africa.
David Thomas has been involved in lots of drilling, perhaps he will respond also.
As to setting up the tank and pressure system, that is pretty straight forward, has not changed much in the last 50 years except for the introduction of bladder tanks.
If you stated where you live it would be helpful, the biggest thing you want is to comply with state laws and keep your pump from freezing (after assuring no contamination) . In the 'old days, this prevent freeze part was usually done by having a below grade well and tank, now most states want it all more than a foot above ground level for aquifer protection, so if in a really cold area you will have to provide pump house heat.
In Seattle area, my design was simply to have a large enough ground area under the pumphouse and enough wall/ceiling insulation so that the heat up from the ground and well always keeps the building over 32F down to 2 F outside (worst case ever here); again, fairly straightforward calculations if you have done any insulation or slab heating work.
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wr/wells/owner.html
"I built a drill rig and drilled my own 8" well a few years ago (very learning process, took all summer) and could not find any PRACTICAL books on relatively shallow wells such as 300 ft and less. . . .
David Thomas has been involved in lots of drilling, perhaps he will respond also."
Somebody call my name?
It impresses my but doesn't surprise me that you built your own rig! I worked a bit with Andy Miller (son of founder and employee #7 since age 14 of Geraghty & Miller (oldest groundwater firm in the country, now Arcadis) and he preferred a cable tool rig. Can be slow, but could be used in any formation.
Reference? Fletcher Driscoll's "Groundwater and Wells" is very good. Not cheap, check a really good library or college for it. Heck of nice guy too, photographic memory and one very capable expert witness in court.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
A 500 gallon tank?? Are you talking about the existing well? One option there is to install such a tank, with a float switch to turn the well pump on/off, then use a shallow well pump system to pressurize things. But the big tank will need to be in a pumphouse, whereas the submersible pump can be installed with no above-ground equipment.
happy?
Junkhound's suggested link is good for the regs, here are a couple that provide some general information that you may find helpful:
http://www.watersystemscouncil.org
http://www.wellowner.org
Nowadays, all you gotta do is pay the state $100 for drilling on your own property. When I started, you could just do it, no fees at all except maybe $2 to record a covenant. (pre 1992 or so).
I'm in LA this week and don't have access to all my web links, the WA state dept of ecy also has a web site with all recent wells and lots of older ones listed and shown on a map. Site often give the well ogs as to what was encountered going down. Supposedly the $100 goes to keep that site up, didn't have access to that type info years ago, had to go around and ask all the neighboring people on wells.
Here, found the link, zoom out to find your place
http://apps.ecy.wa.gov/welllog/MapSearch/viewer.htm?&FASTSTART=YES&SESSIONID=403910769
My well is not on the map (pre 1992), even though I have water rights for it, the one in the middle of the pix is the neighbors former well which got listed as it was filled in 2 years ago by developer (he sold out and built 64 mcmansions $400 K shacks next door, yuK, complete with city water at $30/ month and $40/ month sewer) .
You must be on Cougar mountain, Sommerset, or some such out toward the mountains to need 300 ft deep in Seattle area. I'm at 420 ft elevation above the Cedar river between Maple Valley and Renton and get > 30 gpm at only 60 feet, but had to go thru some big granite and basalt boulders to get there.
Had a well drilled in glacial till here in Maine few years back. Neighbor's was 150 feet, farmhouse up the road was 300. Most others in the area are in between, closer to the lower end, so I budgeted for 300 figuring I'd be safe.
Driller was here for 2 days, finally called it quits at 560 and hydrofractured the hole. We get 2-3 gpm, not a lot but with that depth there's quite a volume stored in there.
Ouch on the checkbook--ran about 9 grand as I recall.
Interestingly, I picked a general area where I wanted the well, my plumber offered to dowse (no charge) and gravitated toward the spot I already had in mind. So much for dowsing.
Old timer builder around here likes to tell a story of when he was a young man. It was his first house, and when the well driller arrived the builder asked, "Well, where do you wanna drill? You think this spot over here'd be good, over by them popples? Or how about over there?"
The well driller looked amusedly at the eager young man, casually spit out a squirt of tobacco juice, put his hand on the man's shoulder and said "Son, I can see down into that ground just as far as you can."
As far as I can tell it's a total and complete crap shoot. My uncle's a geologist with Exxon, and from talking to him it's all just guesswork and conjecture until you actually start drilling.
So just pick a good out of the way spot and cross your fingers!
p.s. not to say educating yourself isn't a good idea--but at the end of the day it's going to be in God's hands
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Edited 11/29/2005 9:18 am ET by Megunticook
Wow! What makes it so expensive? I don't think I've paid more than 7K for a well in my life, and I've had them go as deep as 505 ft. I'm guessing they have to case all the way down throught the glacial till? Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had to case more than about 70 ft. of any well, so that's probably part of the difference.
Andy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
I'm guessing they have to case all the way down throught the glacial till?
I was wondering the same thing. We have solid rock to go through here (hammer drill required) and a hole in the ground typically is $3k/~300'. 2 gpm is average, casing only to solid rock (30' for me). Across the Blue Ridge they have lots of caverns, little solid rock, and prices at least double for the same depth.
It isn't the casing cost, or time to install. When we bought our place I listened to the drillers, 2 "witches", and 1 geologist. The witches didn't agree. The geologist brought out aerial photos and an explanation that made sense to me. I bought a trailer mounted commercial rig (cost, used, was 1 bore) and drilled my own. Had to get the state to change the rule requiring a license, but that was surprisingly easy. Seems they'd never before had anybody ask.
Maybe the reason for the much higher cost is the risk to the equipment with unstable strata. Found out the hard way what happens if you get a bit stuck a ways down. Mine was at 70' when I made a novice mistake. Conventional wisdom is to pull real hard. Sometimes it comes out, often you lose several thousand dollars of hardware. Fortunately, I called the factory and they explained a better way to extract, using water to wash out the bore. A feature my rig has that the large ones don't.
Even on top of this mountain I ended up with a pump set at 120', 2 gpm. I tapped into the aquifer that feeds a good spring farther down the mountain. No problems, but the next house will get its own well. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
A friend of mine built in an area of Sussex County, NJ, that's nothing but a pile of boulders shifted there by the last glacier. The driller needed to use a special rig that set the casing as the hole was bored. Usually, you drill to bedrock, pull the bit, set the casing, and shift to a smaller bit which fits inside the casing. In this case, without the casing, the boulders could shift and pin the drill and however many rods were down the hole. I remember him talking about 150 or 200 ft. of casing, and the fact that the drilling tool stayed at the bottom of the hole because it had to be a larger diameter than the casing. That was an expensive well.Andy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
If your existing well is being sucked dry you can try throttling down the volume with a valve. This lets the well refresh itself without sucking air. If you need to drill go to the Dept of Ecology in your county and talk to them about wells in your area. They will know the depths of wells around you and they also know the drillers as they have to file well logs with the state.
Keith in Yakima
The driller needed to use a special rig that set the casing as the hole was bored.
Yup, that's something I haven't seen. Wouldn't be difficult to fabricate for my rig other than my stems are short. This side of the mountain is: dirt bit far as it goes, case, hammer bit the rest of the way. Dirt bit substantially larger than the hammer bit, giving room for grout. Drillers used to Shenandoah Valley drilling look pretty dumb if/when they quote their normal prices over here.
As far as casing goes, non-driller price just quoted was $3.70/ft (6.25"), or $1110/300'. Pif mentions steel, which I haven't seen anybody use for a long time. Turns out it's double the pvc price. Still leaves a whole lot of room to get up to the costs mentioned here...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I remember probably in the late 60s my dad was quoted a dollar a foot for drilling and casing a well in central KY. IIRC they were talking about going down 100-150 feet. For $200 the guy would guarantee water.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Hard to drive PVC into rock without breaking it. I've only heard of PVC being used to reline a rusted out casing here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've only heard of PVC being used to reline a rusted out casing here."
Paul,
Any idea how long steel well casings last? I know it depends on the water PH, but say neutral.
Jon
I know I've seen casings less than 50 years old that were badly rusted (to the point of holiness).
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
to the point of holiness
Is that how they get the water in the font?
Where I grew up, the well was steel cased and was over fifty years old when I was five. When I was 45, they were still using the same well.I had one replaced for a customer here. was probably seventy years old...Jophnny remember when so and so drilled it...anyway, the origianl well had been a hand dug one lined wioth brick and a well house built over it. Maybe 20 feet deep. Then they cut a hole in the roof to drill it deeper. When they did, they just backfilled around the steel stem with all the dreis around. There was a lot of brick right where the pitless fitting was, so there were air voids. Right there, the casing was rusted clean off. So I'm sure it was ground water and oxygen ringing it there that brought on the rust through. Funnny the way I discovered this. The owneers got some silt in their system and then had it tested. Some coliform showed so they wanted me to try shocking it back into clean and safe condition. When I took the cap off to drop the pellets in, It felt like the whole stem was wiggleing a bit as I leaned on it. "hmmm", says I and wiggled some more. Noticable....So I got a flshlight to peek down and could see roughness right there by the pitless. Ground water was leeking in and bringing surface coliuform with it. No sense in shocking it then. I called the well guy and he lined it with PVC and gaskets and then after shocking iot twice, we still had bad wter so new weel drilled.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bought some land near Kingston Ontario Canada. Had a dug well on it. Had it tested and was full of e-coli. added 1 gallon of javax and let it sit for a week. rented a pump and hooked it up. that small pump pulled out 2000liters per hour. rau it for 4 hours, well only dropped approx 24 inches. had it retested. No more e-coli but now full of coliform. Finally thought it was time to cut my losses and get a new well drilled. Will keep you updated. TomB
"Some coliform showed so they wanted me to try shocking it"
I read this and thought, "that's unlikely to work". Because the coliforms got there in the subsurface, they'll re-establish after any treatment. Rather like putting a dab of anti-biotic ointment on a turd. Whereas surface contamination into a well (like after a flood, might be amenable to shocking.
"after shocking it twice, we still had bad water"
Yep. The real solution is avoiding surface water and septic from perc'ing too fast or too close to the well in the first place.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Right.The myth that this is a possible solution around here comes from the fact that coliform can be introduced in a new well as it is drilled or the pitless hooked up to the pump and everything is first hooked up. That initial introduction of bacteria from the surface can be handled that way. It happens so often that an inital shocking is standard around here.So owners remember that and if coliform ever shows up again, that is the solution they try first.The newer deeper wells don't generally suffer except for rusted caasings like that one. but there are a lot of wells less than fifty feet deep. since they run dry occasionally, new owners tend to redrill deep
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're generally right, but I've had two high yield wells in limestone that had persistent coliform. Shocking didn't do it, so I ended up installing UV sterilization systems.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I am a former geologist with ~20 yrs drilling in the northeast. Getting back to the original question, there aren't many "up to date" references because there have ben few major innovations in the residential water well industry in at least the past few decades.
As for techniques, most common method for residential supply wells is air or mud rotary. Air and mud are two possible drilling fluids that can be used to cool the drill hammer and lift cuttings out of the hole. Mud is typically a bentonite/water slurry, but there are many other products, some synthetic, that are used.
The driller will typically drill a hole through the overburden (that's everything above competent bedrock) large enough to accept 6" steel casing (I've only seen PVC casing for test wells, never for supply wells but that could be a regional thing that I am not familiar with). The driller will continue to drill a "socket" hole into what he views as competent bedrock some minimum distance, usually between 10 and 20 feet (although this is state specific).
The casing is then lowered (or driven) through the pilot hole in the overburden and set into the socket that was drilled into the bedrock. The casing is then sealed (theoretically at least) to the bedrock surface with mechanical rubber seals (rare), neat portland cement, bentonite slurry (or some combination). Other stuff is also used but these are typical. Sealing the casing can be done a number of ways, but the best way (I think) is to hold the casing up off the bottom of the hole and then pumping the grout down inside the casing until it comes up the outside of the casing. This is a tedious process that many drillers simply screw up because it takes time and patience, plus no one can actually see a crummy job (or a good one for that matter).
Once the casing is set (and the grout has supposedly cured), drilling into competent bedrock proceeds, usually with a down-hole air hammer. Compressed air and sometimes a trickle of water is blown down the rods in sufficient quantities to lift pulverized rock up and out the casing. When water bearing fractures are encountered, water will be evident in the cuttings which are being blown back to the surface. Some drillers can guesstimate the wells "yield" based (visually) on the amount of water that comes back. Most drillers will call a well when it has been determined that sufficient water bearing fractures have been encountered. The only way to know the true capacity of the well is via a pump test, although many drillers will state otherwise.
After that, you want a good pump man with a solid reputation to set everything up. Likely you'll be setting a submersible pump in the well with a pressure tank in the house. Many good drilling companies offer this service, along with treatment system design and installation if necessary, and may even provide package pricing. You want a reputable drilling company, preferably with dedicated drilling and pump installation crews. An in-house engineer is not a bad thing to look for either.
Costs vary regionally and seasonally based on typical market factors (supply and demand), but I've found that most companies in a given region are similar in their pricing. Some guys charge by the foot, usually with a minimum charge. Like everything else, you get what you pay for, and in the water business, there are no guarantees. The guy with the cleanest equipment and most experienced drillers would be my choice. As for dowsers, they're amusing. Technically, they are on par with gypsy fortune tellers.
Other folks have mentioned hollow stem augers, cable tool rigs and home-made rigs. All these techniques have their places but I don't want to ramble on more than I have. I will be glad to try and answer any specific questions you may have. Good luck.
Thank you,
Tim
It's been great to read your responses here!I was thinking that maybe you could elaborate for the OP on your comment about a good pump man. For instance the design of the flow system from pump to showerhead - A well three hundred feet deep, set 150' from the house, which has a shower on the thrid floor, will take a different set of pump and pipe than a ranch house with a hundred foot deep well right next to the dooryard
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I'm no expert on pump systems but you are so right Piffen. A good pump man is indispensible. You can hire the best driller and the best plumber in the world, but without a good pump design to connect the two ends of the system it ain't worth squat.
A good pump system should deliver sufficient water to any fixture in the house regardless of how deep or how far away the well is.
In very basic terms, you need an adequately sized pressure tank to match the demands of the house, and a pump capable of feeding the tank. The pump needs to be sized to compensate for the head in the well (that's essentially the distance it needs to push the water from its static water level to the ground surface) plus the friction losses from the pipe which obviously increase with distance (hence the desire to keep the well as close to the house as practical). In some wells, the head may increase during a pumping cycle but usually not by much (because the level of the water in the well may drop if the pumping rate exceeds the yield of the well). The total depth of the well is a relatively minor issue to the pump guy, the critical variable is the depth of the static water level relative to the ground surface because that's what the pump is fighting against (plus the pipe to the house of course).
The uninformed often blame the well when there are pressure problems in the house, but assuming the well is capable of making sufficient water (or is sufficiently deep to store enough water to keep the pump wet during any demand), the problem is usually an undersized (or malfunctioning) pressure tank (or clogged pipes). Yeah, sometimes pumps get fouled, but that's way less common.
My well here in southern NH makes 0.25 gpm. Not nearly enough to supply my peak household needs but the well is 1,062 feet deep, the static water level is ~125 feet below the ground surface and the pump is set at about 900'. That is effectively a ~500 gallon storage tank, which is plenty to keep the pump wet (except for one time when the kids were playing with the hose, then took off their bikes and forget to turn it off).
The major difference in 4" submersible pumps (a pretty common size for residential wells) is not the pump itself but the motor. In these parts, the pipe (from the pump to the tank) is almost universally 1.25" black poly tubing.
Hope this is useful info.
Of course it is. Water is a subject I thnk too many of us take for granted, especially clean drinking water. One of the pearls of wisdomDad left me with, though he was speaking apocolypticly I think, is that you neve know how good the water tastes, until the well runs dry.Theree are a number of companies around the world recognizing this potential need and investing heavily in water, not just the cache` bottled stufff with pretty labels, but the kind that will keep populations and countries alive and functioning.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
without a good pump design to connect the two ends of the system it ain't worth squat.
The major difference in 4" submersible pumps (a pretty common size for residential wells) is not the pump itself but the motor.
Ours wasn't "worth squat". Took me 3 tries before I got the right submersible. That was after I gave up on the local driller supplier and went direct to the factory. What I learned was that the motor didn't change so much as the pump varied greatly according differing needs. That's why they have so many models.
Our situation, set up on poor advice from the driller supplier (the only products they sell), has the pressure tank and switch near the well, which is lower elevation than the house. Big pressure drop, 50 psi, almost entirely from lift, not friction in the 700' of pipe. The 3rd pump finally was the correct one to handle the head, but not from larger hp. Took the pump mfg. receptionist about a minute to figure out what was going on. Pressure tank mfg. concurred.
As you know, running the switch at higher pressure, 80/100 here, effectively reduces the capacity of the pressure tank. So I buy the largest honker I can find. Also works fine to combine tanks, but I haven't seen the need.
Appreciate your observations. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for the very interseting and valuable information.
Cheers,
Don
Yep, driving (trying to drive) PVC is a real no-no. In this area, the drillers typically drill a hole with a slightly larger diameter than the casing a couple of feet into the rock, set the casing and then seal around the bottom of the casing.
I had a well drilled last summer, the used PVC casing but they don't hard drive it. In my case the drilled a 8" hole 120 feet the set the PVC casing the grout sealed with bentonite, then drilled a 6" hole the rests of the way. Total depth 486' with 30 gal per minute.
"Builder's Guide to Wells and Septic Systems" by R. Dodge Woodson, McGraw-Hill Books. I use it as an occasional reference when designing a shared system for a client.
Your high costs are most likely the result of having to case the entire well. The costs for casing right now range from $12-16 per foot. If you're not drilling in bedrock, the casing is there to prevent the collapse of the well. I would estimate your cost at over $12k for a new well, assuming 400 feet deep and all the associated plumbing costs.
I know there's a lot of folks who think dowsing or "witching" is a hoax, but I had my well witched by two different people, one of whom was the well driller, and they were within a foot of each other on location and within 10% on expected depth and yield (yes, some dowsers can tell you the depth and yield too). I got 14 gpm, which was better than the average for the neighborhood. I suggest you find a local dowser and have them give it a shot - worst case, you get no better of a well than your driller would give you anyway.
Gee ... Your dowsers could win a million dollars if they can prove that it works. Go to http://www.randi.org/ for the details. Dowsing is pure BS. When put to the test it ALWAYS fails.
Forget pseudoscientific hooey and hire a real geologist. The difference could mean hundreds of feet and thousands of dollars in savings. Sure a dowser can find water if you go deep enough. A more educated guess could be had by real science and not superstitious magical hoaxing. We have learned a lot since the 14th century.
A little botany could be helpful too. Species like willow or cottonwood that like wet feet could lead you to a much shallower well.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
My bil and sil just had their well drilled, and they used a dowser. I told 'em that they should also bring in a priest to exorcise the demon from the well, and that trading in the cardiologist for a witch doctor would probably save some dough, too. Humbug and piffle, I say.
You can't prove a negative, and as long as wells drilled where the dowser dowsed bring up water, people will believe. Now, three times I've hired a geologist to locate wells in areas where the neighbors went deep and yielded low or nothing. All three times brought up water at substantially shallower levels than the average, and one scored more gpm than the driller could measure.
Andy
All three times brought up water at substantially shallower levels than the average, and one scored more gpm than the driller could measure.
You got my attention.
What did they do?
Neice had her well witched. Thats big medicine here and not many question it . I do just to mess with people.
She actually paid him.
She called me to more or less chat about her house . Well ends up she wanted my trailer but anyway, I told her witching was of the devil and could cost her salvation with out a fiddle. [I was runnin a poker bluff} After several minutes of talking I got her a little worried and she nearly bought it before I laffed. I gave her an honest opinion that I didnt believe they worked and she gave me three stories of proof. Good enough then . She got 2 gallons per minute on a d e e p well. I called her and said its me again Ethel are ya nekkid? She said no but her water deal was told to me then. I said well, so much for the well witchin. She got really whizzed off and hasnt ever called me again. Umhumn she musta been serious about that witchin thing.
Tim
I hired a local geologist who was familiar with the area, and who had a good reputation with my driller. She delved into the USGS subterranian maps of the area to familiarize herself with the dips and strikes of the assumed strata. If I remember correctly, she was looking particularly for known faults and formation contacts, areas where there are more cracks to collect water. She came to the sites, took some compass bearings, kicked a few dirt clods, and said, "Drill here". Of course, well drilling is always limited by the lot - Its size, the house location, whether you can get a rig in, and making the well serviceable. But I'm pretty confident that she ratcheted the odds in my favor, and at $300 a shot, it felt like money well spent.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
".....hired a local geologist who was familiar with the area, ............She delved into the USGS subterranean maps of the area to familiarize herself with the dips and strikes of the assumed strata. If I remember correctly, she was looking particularly for known faults and formation contacts."
Andy,
Great idea.
My well is only 80' deep sitting about 35' above the surrounding plains (House is on a glacial till mound). Most of the new homes going all around me are going upwards of 300' to 500' to find water. I'd say my well level isn't much more than 20' below street level, as I had to change the pump out a couple years ago...and accidentally dropped the old one down the shaft. Buoyancy of the water allowed me to retrieve it via the power cord.
Jon
Should be home the week after Christmas, I'm in the so King Co. phone book. If you get down near Renton, I'll show you what I did.
Art Brockschmidt.
hydrofracturing - when you dril in solid rock and still don't get much, small explsive charges are suspened at various elevations in the hole and set off. This fractures the rock so water captured in veins near tjhe hole can drain to it.
The fact he mentions hydrofracture, and the fact I live in his genmeral geographic area tells me me was not on same kind of glacial till as you. If your hole is till all the way down, the ground water percs in and filters through until is finds water table. It also means that you will need a steel casing all the way down. In our neighborhood here, the soil is cal from 2' to 22' deep and then solid rock below that, so they price a well as somuch a foot to drill and so much for casing. last I knew, it was 12 to drill and 10 for casing, but steel price has gone up 60% or so since then and so has all their other coists, so I would guess 14 to drill and 16 or so for casing.
Mine has a hole 177' deep with two lengths of casing because I had 22' of soil. My near neighbor just uphill has 197' with two lengths of casing and about 24' of soil. he got 18GPM, and mine has 3.5GPM. Makes me wonder if I shoulda gone another ten feet but the bank acount was going down as fast as the drill steel.
Just four miles across the island, My BIL has about 310' and it is all in glacial till and lined the whole way with casing. Otherwise, the side walls would collapse.
So your costs are related to high cost of steel. Also, there is a tendency for states that have stricter controls on wqter usage to have higher drilling costs - partly because it adds to overhead cost and limits the number of drillers competing. That could be a factor
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, as my driller explained it, hydrofracturing involves injecting water into the well at very high pressure, thereby widening (hopefully) any seams in the bedrock where groundwater can access the well. I don't believe there were any explosives involved, although I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of it. It's never a guaranteed solution, but it often works. Originated in the oil business.When I said glacial till I was referring to surface geology--at my house bedrock is about 70 feet down, so 510 feet of my well is drilled in solid rock. Makes for some damn high radon.
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That makes sense. The way a rough, rugged deaf well driller explains things takes some interpretation
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Im gonna slide in here . The poster wanted to know more about drilling but Im wondering if he should consider blowing a otherwise useless hole.
You mentioned setting off charges at different depths.
[lets see if I can remember ]
If you remember [lol] I blew my well at the cabin with 2 sticks of dynamite 1 foot from the bottom. I was told that would bring it back but did little good.
Now Im thinking I should have bought a case of dynamite and set one off every couple of feet or two sticks.
BL blew his several times . The last effort was 3 sticks or was it 4? Me dont remember, but at least 3. He collasped his well and lost it . I believe he blew all charges 2 feet from the bottom. We were both told it would surge and suck back the water clearing blockages. If I knew what depth the water was found I could blow that depth and the driller may have that on record as I dont remember that either . I could buzz him I guess. Seems he said somthing about keeping records of every well hes drilled.
I do remember he said the well produced 24 gallons per minute when he left. Im getting about 1/4 of a gallon per minute now with a 500 gallon sand filter Ive added.
Believe it or not its not a problem because with weekend use it keeps up with no problems and I just spray a mist anyway as I was advised to do .
Its got a stock tank shut off on it so it sprays a mist 24 and 7 till it catches up.
We are intend renting the cabin as such for short term stays by the night . From reseach Ive done it looks like it will be rented all the time from a website that lost a group of cabins so they called me overhearing someone tell them we had mentioned it . In fact Ive recieved several calls from the chamber of commerce as we seem to be out of cabins in this area. Big need , so Im thinking about several more too. That presents my problem.
Its on top of a rock laden mountain. 2250 ft which Imerg called a hill . <G> My home is at 450 ft. So I imagine the well goes through lots of rock since I too I hit rock at 1 foot trying to sink a septic tank.
Tim
You're welcome. As the discussion here indicates, there's a lot of difference in what's required to install a well and the production of the well. The immediate geology is the primary factor and of course influences the amount of water produced. It also influences the depth and type of casing required, the diameter of the casing, the depth of grout, whether or not a well screen is required, etc. Wells look simple from above ground, but that's like a pile foundation looking simple from the ground surface.
A case in point, I was recently involved in a situation with a poorly installed, and poorly producing well (around 3 gpm--not bad, but not great). Drilled 50' through overburden to bedrock and then another 150' in rock to a fracture. Because the well casing wasn't sealed properly, the well had to be abandoned. Another installer put in a new well about 15' away; drilled 50' to bedrock, 130' to a fracture, produced >20 gpm.
PVC casing? I've never seen that. In Jersey and Connecticut, it's steel.
"PVC casing? I've never seen that."
Some drilling techniques (and some geology) require a driven casing and then it always steel. In a few formations, the hole stays open and you can place PVC. Or you can use a "hollow stem" auger and construct a PVC casing well within the auger as you pull it. I've drilled and constructed 6 of those wells in a day, but it was a long day. Hollow stem augers for residential use would 8.5 or 8.25" OD with a 4.5" inner tube through which the casing and sand are placed.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
In Virginia, over the past decade, steel casing has pretty much been phased out for residential wells. PVC is cheaper, and is structurally sound for the depth of most wells (assuming of course that the right schedule of pipe is used). A lot of well drillers also claim that there are fewer problems with lightening damage to PVC-cased wells. One drawback is that grouting with cement can warp the pipe if care isn't taken to deal with the heat of reaction.
One drawback is that grouting with cement can warp the pipe if care isn't taken to deal with the heat of reaction.
My understanding from the Health Dept. was they were trying hard to get everybody to switch to bentonite, which is what I used over a decade ago. Drillers' Service here stocks steel casing, much to my surprise. Apparently somebody uses it. And only $7.20/ft. BTW, the casing's sealed all the way to the top and inspected by the Health Dept.
Are you a neighbor?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 11/29/2005 8:55 pm ET by VaTom
Local health department personnel generally tend to prefer bentonite, since there's some evidence that it does a better job of sealing. If it dries out after placement, it will swell back up when wetted. Cement tends to dry and crack, and doesn't adhere particularly well to plastic.
I'm in Lynchburg, and figured you are somewhere in the general vicinity.
I've used bentonite in several forms. For my money, the best waterproofing there is. That's why I was tickled the Health Dept. promoted it so strongly.
Didn't know there was military in Lynchburg. Thought maybe you were employed around here. If you're ever N., we're 15 mi S. of Charlottesville, just off 29. Give a yell.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Arkansas uses PVC. Thick stuff , lots thicker than scd 40.
Tim
Plastic here, trick joints too. Outer bell has a groove, matching groove in the inner.
Through a hole in the outer a round plastic spline goes into the matching grooves and locks it together.
20' sections, 360' in mine all hanging on these connections.
Joe H
<<We're kinda hoping more for the "in God's hands" action.>>
I understand, but from what I've seen of well drilling (and talking to the guys that do it for a living) it comes down to a roll of the dice. You can drill down 1,000 feet in one spot and get nothing, then move twelve feet over and get 20gpm at 150 feet.
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"Heaven knows where we would be without the all wise, all knowning bureaucrats."
Some of us would have wells closer to our neighbor's (or our own) septic tanks.
You may feel that western governments have gone overboard in teaching children to read and posting speed limits and all that, but chlorinating the water and providing sanitary ways of disposing of human feces is SO much better than the alternative. My wife has practiced enough medicine in the third world (Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Bolivia) to have seen the alternative.
Thanks. That warms the heart of this bureaucrat! (I work in public health).
Unless you have a lot of real estate in which to go looking to site a well (as in a lot of acres to choose from), the location of the well is usually dictated by more mundane things like access for the drill rig and proximity to the house, nearby septic systems.
State or local regs will dictate minimum safe distances from potential sources of contamination (nearby storage tanks or septic, etc.). The farther you go from the house, the more your costs will be (for laying wire, pipe, trenching, etc.). Keep it as near to the house as possible. It is rare in these parts for anyone to confer with a geologist for a residential well, although they are routinely sought for big production well design. Besides, no geologist, consultant or drilling firm will give you any guarantees regarding quantity or quality of water.
Pump tests are simple. After the well is drilled it should be "developed" (that means pumping (sucking) or blowing air down the hole until extracted water is "clear" of suspended particulates (natural particulates like sand/silt or rock fragments, or any gunk the driller may have introduced to the hole). Depending upon the nature of the fractures, development may take as short as less than an hour to half a day (or more). A temporary pump is then installed in the well and allowed to run at some determined flow rate (usually somewhere near the range of the desired minimum, like a few gpm.) The pump is allowed to run for at least an hour or so while the the drawdown (the drop in water level in the well) is measured. An electronic water level indicator is commonly used but some old-timers will still use fiberglass or steel tapes with chalk smeared on them to indicate the depth of the water. Ideally, you will get at least a few gpm with little or no drawdown. Formal pump tests per the text books are usually much longer in duration (up to 72 hours for the expensive wells) but shorter times are usually sufficient for residential supply wells. Unless the well is an obvious gusher, a pump test, even a quickie like the one I described, is the only real way to tell what the well might be capable of producing. Sometimes, data from the well development is sufficient to say something about a well.
With respect to your well (assuming you are planning to drill into bedrock), the nature of the surface material is pretty much moot. Doesn't matter what sort of glacial heap your house is sitting on, the well and it's performance will soley be a matter of the nature of the underlying bedrock, unless you are drilling an "overburden" well (i.e. screened in the overburden). Overburden wells can be high yielding wells but they are atypical for residential supply wells (they can be more prone to contamination). Many locales have outlawed overburden wells for this reason. In general, you are more likely to encounter water bearing fractures at shallower depths (shallow relative to the top of the bedrock surface, not the ground surface) if you are in a bedrock valley or on the flank of a bedrock hill vs. sitting near the top of a bedrock high.
Bedrock topography often mimics the ground surface but not always, espcecially in glaciated areas. See if you can get a bedrock surface map of the area. Hopefully you are located in a bedrock low, or at least not on a hill. Do you know what type of rock do you have there?
There is no national licensing program for groundwater geologists, although many states now require certification to practice. There are national affiliations (like the National Groundwater Association) but these memberships simply require payment of annual dues. If WA has a state certification program, and the geologist is certified, he will advertise it. Most state certification programs are pretty rigorous, requiring proof of education, experience, and ongoing learning. In states that do have programs, geologists are often certified through the same boards that certify Professional Engineers.
I think some of the best groundwater geologists are working in the environmental business, not in the groundwater production business. So, if you have your heart set on hiring one, look in the yellow pages under environmental consultants. Prepare to pay at least $75/hr for a staff geologist (at least a few hours worth of work, plus any field time) and add a couple of hours at ~$125+/hr for his boss to sign his name on it.
Red
[RedfordHenry] With respect to your well (assuming you are planning to drill into bedrock), the nature of the surface material is pretty much moot. Doesn't matter what sort of glacial heap your house is sitting on, the well and it's performance will soley be a matter of the nature of the underlying bedrock, unless you are drilling an "overburden" well (i.e. screened in the overburden). Overburden wells can be high yielding wells but they are atypical for residential supply wells (they can be more prone to contamination). Many locales have outlawed overburden wells for this reason. In general, you are more likely to encounter water bearing fractures at shallower depths (shallow relative to the top of the bedrock surface, not the ground surface) if you are in a bedrock valley or on the flank of a bedrock hill vs. sitting near the top of a bedrock high.
Around here almost all the wells are overburden wells because the overburden is so darn thick. The USGS drilled some test wells all over the valley 2000+ ft down and never hit bedrock. Both domestic and production wells are drilled into mostly unconsolidated alluvium. This means that the wells are steel cased the full length and screened at the production depth.
Erich
Whoa, that's deep. Where are you located? Here in the northeast, 200' is considered "wicked" deep. We've had the benefit of a glacier or two to keep our casing costs low. I've never had an opportunity to work on the west coast, just the northeast, Florida, the US Virgin Islands, and once on Hawaii (just shallow coring there).
I located out in the desert about 150 miles north of Los Angeles. I live in what the geologists call the "basin and range" region. The mountains go up and fill the valleys with what washes off. Sediments end up thousands of feet thick. The upper couple of thousand feed haven't had time to cement into rock yet.
Basin and range is cool country. Bet you don't have many neighbors. Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Basin and range is cool country. Bet you don't have many neighbors.
And thats the reason I'm out here. I make things that go fast and then blow up for the Navy.
Erich
Fallon? Tonapah? I drove Route 50, I think, across there several times. Once, I saw targets disappearing in clouds of dust a long way off. Another time I drove 50 at night. There was another car about every half hour. It got so I didn't even bother to pull off the road to pee.
Ever read John McPhee's Basin and Range?Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I work at China Lake, about 100 miles north of LA. 100 miles East of Bakersfield and 100 miles west of Death valley.
I have John McFee's Basin and Range book. It has a lot of interesting stuff in it. I don't agree with all the geology, but the basin and range area is geologically very complex. The wonderful thing is that all the geology is on display out here and not obscured by trees and soil.
Erich
If you can give me any specifics on looking up, I guess in the phonebook, a geologist that would be great.
Mine came from the local U. A guy who enjoyed helping out and sharing his knowledge, refused payment. I simply called the geology dept and asked. What I got was a look at his aerial photos (which I already had) and a description of the area geology, particularly faults.
If you don't have enough land to have varied geology, don't bother.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You really need to know what discharge rate of the pump, and a few other variables like static (initial) water level to evaluate pumping test data but 212 ' of drawdown in 60 minutes is nearly a dry hole (unless they were pumping at very high flow rate which isn't likely). 93 feet of drawdown after 45 minutes at 8 gpm isn't a whole lot better but not bad for a single home with typical needs. 0 drawdown at 2 gpm after 3.25 hrs is pretty good but I don't understand why such different data from the same hole (unless the well had been fracked or re-developed). Recovery data is almost as important. That's measuring the rate of recharge after the pump is shut off.
I'm not up in WA state geology, do you know what your rock type is? What part of WA state are you in?