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b Is my brand new three way swtich defective, or was it wired wrong?
Up front disclaimer: I’m a homeowner, not a trained electrician. I wouldn’t feel justified in turning to you folks for help except that—-I paid my electrical subcontractor to wire a new home which was finished 4 months ago. Since then my attempts to get the electrical sub contractor to return and see what’s wrong with my three way switch circuits has been futile. I have written a letter and made three phone calls stating that “I’ll be happy to pay cash up front if you’ll come!” The subcontractor is very busy with new work. My new house is 27 miles out in the country. They say they will get to it eventually, but it has been four months. They are nice people, I believe.
So what’s my story?
There’s the usual entry into the guest bathroom from the interior of the house. As you enter the bathroom there’s a wall switch to turn on or off the lights in the bathroom. At the other side of the same bathroom, there’s a door which opens to the outside of the house. There’s a second wall mounted switch on the inside wall as one goes outdoor. We asked that the two switches be wired so that either one would turn the bathroom lights ON or OFF. The electrical subcontractor said, “Fine, you just need a three way switch.” He installed such switches (presumably).
When the house wiring was completely finished the electrical subcontractor submitted his bill to us and we paid it promptly.
Since the guest bathroom hasn’t been used, thus far, we didn’t discover that the switches weren’t working as we had asked/planned for a week or two after the wiring was completed.
Either of the named “three way” swtiches will turn the bathroom lights ON and OFF. But you can’t use one of the switches to turn the lights on and then use the other switch to turn the lights off.
That is to say, you can’t turn the lights on as you enter the bathroom from the interior of the house and then walk over to the door going to the outside and turn the bathroom lights off at that second switch. In the same way, you can’t come indoors through the outside door leading into that bathroom and turn the lights on as you enter. You can turn the lights on as you enter O.K. but if you walk across the bathroom and leave the bathroom to go on into the interior of the house, the wall switch where you go on into the interior of the house won’t turn the lights off.
Summing up: either switch will turn the lights ON or OFF if you use the same switch for both functions BUT only one of them can be used to perform that function. You can’t use one switch to turn the lights on and the other switch to turn them off.
The electrical subcontractor, when apprised by telephone of the situation, said that the switches were defective. I visited a Lowe’s store and spoke with the man most knowledgeable about such switches. The salesman said it was extremely rare for a brand new switch, right out of the factory box, to be defective and voiced the suspicion that the switches had been wired incorrectly.
So I have two questions:
How uncommon is it for a brand new three-way switch to be defective right out of the box?
Where can I learn how to properly wire a three way switch?
How many leads should I expect to find in a properly wired three way switch?
Respectfully,
William
Florida
Replies
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What you describe - that switch A will turn the light on regardless of the position of switch B and that switch B will turn the light on or off regardless of the position of the switch A is almost implausible with 3 way switches. Try all the combinations and see if there isn't a pattern. Any diy book on electrical wiring will explain a 3-way switch circuit - browse the library of book store.
Yes it is rare for a part like that to be defective but not unheard of. I once had to wire over 2000 lamp sockets and when complete one circuit had a dead short. After looking at every connection several times I started inspecting the sockets and found one that had a dead short manufactured into it.
*I'm completely lost on the description of the problem or I get it and can't believe it.Could you post the actual problem again in three sentences or less please? We'll do our best to advise but if we're all as dense as me, you're just gettimg dumb looks now.
*I've been having a lot of problems with 3 way decora switches. On my last project, more than 50% were bad. But, your problem doesn't sound like bad switches. Sounds like the fixture is wired from two separate sources, each with its own switch, that provides juice independent of each other. Your switches work, they just don't work the way you want them to work.Maybe the electrician figured that this would serve your purpose and save him from running an extra leg if there was already a hot wire in the wall. Who knows. SHG
*William - It's easy to determine if you have three-way switches: if you look at the switch and see the words "on" and "off" imprinted, they i cannotbe three-way. If that's the case, you need to get an electrician to fix it. This is so basic that you should not be fooling with your wiring if you're not aware of that (no offense, just an opinion).You may have three-way switches and for some reason the circuit was wired with 14-2, that is, you don't have the proper wiring for a three-way circuit. Hard to fix now - you can tell because 14-3 will have an additional wire with red insulation.Also possible is that you have three-way switches and 14-3 but the circuit is miswired. It's easy to miswire, even for a pro occasionally.I suggest that you see if you can get another electrician to take a look at it, or barring that (if you find an actual problem) report the problem to the original guy and try to press your point that you're pretty sure that he made a mistake. Jeff
*OK amateur electricians....The circuit is miswired. It is impossible for it to be a faulty switch. b IMPOSSIBLE!Send your electrician a certified letter stating you gave him time to correct his error and that now you are hiring another electrician to repair it and you will be sending him a back charge bill. Not paying that bill, you will see him in small claims court and will be notifiying the state attorney general. His work in my state would be state warrantied for at least a year and in new construction longer.near the bozo electricians,ajThe real answer to above....b ONLY...let me repeat...ONLY...miswiring perfectly functioning 3-way switches, will lights be operable from one switch at a time and not either switch as desired....ONLY IF MISWIRED.
*William, looks like counting to 3 is a challenge in Florida? Sounds like it's wired wrong to me. Here are a couple links with explanations and diagrams of how it's done. Joe Hhttp://webx.taunton.com/WebX?50@@.ee8e99c/9 Sparky "Problems with a three way switch" 12/1/00 5:04pm
*The 'electrician' you contracted with should be the one to correct your problem....not you!You stated that you called this guy but he was too busy to come and check out the problem.....how pathetic!If you still owed him money I'm sure he would find plenty of time to pay you a visit.Just a thought.
*William, What did you build so far out in the country for?? I've seen goofy stuff like this happen many times over the years, so it's not that unusual. A good electrician could locate the problem in 5 minutes if you could get him/her on the job.You don't sound like the kind of guy that should be messing around too much with the switches, but if you want to check a few simple things you could do the following:Do as suggested above and determine if you have a 3-way switch at each location. Turn off the circuit breaker for the light circuit and try BOTH switches to make sure the light won't come on from either one. Remove the switch and see if it isn't a simple problem such as a wire popping loose or breaking off from the switch. You can buy a 3-way switch for $3 almost anywhere. Maybe you want to try a new switch. Make sure you note the color of the wire hooked to each screw terminal (and the color of that screw) and simply replace the switch. Beyond that, I think you should wait for an electrician.
*William, Sounds like it is miswired. You paid the electrician to do this work , he should make it right. If he has connections switched it is an easy fix , if he didn't put in enought conductors it will be much more difficult to fix ( maybe he fears the later). How many leads should I expect to find in a properly wired three way switch? Depends on which configuration you can have A. power source to switch to light to switch B. power source to light to switch to switch C. power source to switch to switch to light They're all different. Way to hard to explain in text , very easy stuff looking at a drawing. Go to Menards or Homedepot spend $5 for "Step to step Guide Book on Home Wiring" Turn off the power and see what you got. If all else fails install the clapper. DJ
*William,Symptoms make me think that one or both of your switches may not be 3-way. If as stated earlier, they are generic toggle switches then they should say on off if they are NOT 3-ways. this is not always true with decorative slider switches. Three way dimmer switches are full of potential problems. I have installed Decoras and had faulty new switches. A very frustrating situation which I will not soon forget. I also ran across a situation where a homeowner had tried to install dimmer 3 way dimmer switches at both boxes. Even in our solid state world, only one dimmer can be used.William, since you seem ready and motivated to at least try to troubleshoot this situation and gain some control or at least figure out where you stand, I shall attempt to walk you thru this a ways against the better judgement of most of this strings posters. I realize that trying to start legal action or study wiring diagrams that you have to lookup or purchase seems roundabout so here is the hands-on get your feet wet (please not really) approach. We all had to start somewhere and I bet thinking back for most of us it was in a box and not a book. First: Shut of the power. Make sure that the light that worked does not work with either switch any combination. If there is confusion, shut off the main breaker and work with a flashlight.Second: You should at least have some electrical tape and some pliers for straightening out wire ends if needed. Small orange wire nuts would be good. Also, having an el-cheapo electrical meter is a very good idea for checking continuity. (ask at the hardware.) This meter or light must have it's own source of power (via battery) so that when you touch the leads together it either registers or lights. Also you need some wire long enough to cover the distance between the to problem switch boxes. Only 1 piece is needed and it can be any type since it only must carry battery voltage and little current.Third: Ready Powers off -- OK. completely loosen the switch screws and pull out the switches with wires attatched. Each switch should have Three Black, Red or maybe even White (not neutral) wires attatched to it and ALSO most likely a green or bare ground wire.If there isn't 3 non green or bare wires attatched,look to see if there are 3 gold or black colored screws on the side of the switch. (Ignore the GREEN ground screw (if there)). If the switch has 3 screws on the side, it's 3-way. They should both have these 3 screws plus the green screw and three wires plus the bare or green ground wire. If they don't you may as well put the switches back unless there happens to be an extra wire in the electric box that is not connected to another wire. E-mail me if this is the case.Forth: You need to disconnect all six of these wires from the switches. If they are pushed into small holes in the back, use a narrow screwdriver in the slot adjacent the hole and gently pry or twist(brittle plastic) while tugging on the wire. If they are wrapped around the outside screws (accomplishing the same thing electrically), then simply unscrew the screws enough to release the wires. Disconnect the ground wires, if they are there and get the switches out of the way.If you get concerned about getting in too deep with the power off and all or the wife is starting to give off those distracting signals of which we are all aware, simply wrap electric tape over those 6 bare wire ends so no copper shows or can touch any other bare wire (especially the ground wire) push them back into the box, turn on the power and take a break for an hour or a day or even a month. Then when your ready to continue, shut off the power, remove the tape and make sure the 6 wire ends are not touching each other. Normally it's a good idea to make a note of where these wires were connected on the switches. You certainly can do that but the important issue is to know what each one of them does so that they can be reconnected properly. It's better to leave them taped or wirenutted until you can manage to get or have it done right. Get one of those battery operated closet lights to tide you over until this is wrapped.OK Fifth: One of these 6 should be your power in. Only one.Another of these 6 should go directly to the black wire in the light box that is connected to the light.That's 2 of them. 4 more. -- these are easy.These should be both ends of TWO wires that run directly between the 2 boxes -- nothing in between.Which are which -- well color should help but you just can't count on it since many folks find that it is cheaper to run 2 lengths of 2 wire (blsck and white) romex between 3-way boxes than to run 1 length of 3 wire romex (black, red and white) between the boxes. Let's find the power in first. This is going to cause a stir but none of us are stupid and electricity like fire can be controled. William, if your not up to it, just don't do it.You need a trouble light or lamp with the holes on the prongs where it plugs into the wall. Make sure that the light is on when you unplug it from a test in any wall outlet.Powers still off. Put the ground wire through one of the prongs from the inside out -- no need to bend and twist the wire around. Just give it enough twist to assure contact with the one prong. Put a little electrical tape around this connection. Touch one of the 6 mystery wires to the other prong through the hole. Perhaps masking taping the cord to the wall would keep gravity from pulling it out. Perhaps bending the wire a bit to create a little spring tension to hold it to the prong. No eledtrical tape here since you have to repeat this process with the other 2 wires in each box. Anyway. make sure that no bare wires are contacting anything except the plug prongs Even your ground wire is going to be temporarily hot -- so treat it that way.Seventh: Turn on the breaker(s). If light lights, this is your power in. It should be your only power in, but the only way for you to make certain is to go through the same process with all 6 wires in both boxes, obiously shutting off the breaker each time.If two of those 6 wires when tested, light the light then tape or wire nut all six and abandon the troubleshooting operation. Again, you would be most likely be in too deep to bail yourself out. Should this be the case, you could E-mail me and I might be able to walk you through it. (especially if your good at patching holes in drywall).Eighth: OK now you know which one is the power in. Mark it. Power Still OFF. In the other box, is the wire that goes directly to your light fixture. This one also needs to be identified. Remove the screws and lower the light fixture. If it is not to heavy the wirenutted leads should support it while you troubleshoot. disconnect the black (or red) lead to the light by most likely taking off the wirenut. No need to mess with the white wire. OK, Attatch one end of a length of some wire (bell wire, speaker wire, auto wire don't matter but check it first with your newly aquired or borrowed meter.Turn the dial until you find a setting that allows the meter dial to move when you simply touch the black and red lead to each other. This simply tells you that you have a non-broken connection. Just touch one meter probe to each end of this test wire and the dial should move, the digital numbers should change or the continuity light should lite. Now you know for sure that this wire is going to do it's job)OK Now hook up one end of this test wire to the black wire that was attatched to the light (not the lead running to the light, obiously) and the other end to one of your meter probes (wrap it a couple times to assure a good connection (any faulty temporary connections will give you the wrong feedback and make this all mute). Now touch the other meter probe to each of the 3 wires in the box (THE BREAKER MUST BE OFF) one at a time until you find the wire to the light. Mark It. Replace your light fixture like you found it. Now you know your "Power in wire" and your "To the Light wire". the rest is easy, unless your electrician really ran amuck.Ninth: Remember, the remaining 2 wires in each box are connected (I hope) to the other to remaining wires in the other box. POWER STILL OFF. Simply confirm this by using the same continuity meter logical system to find which wire in one box is the same wire in the other box. It matters much more that they do connect between boxes than which is which, but mark them if you like. If these wires don't connect between boxes, again your probably in deep. E-mail me and we could go from there, if your confortable. If these wires do pass uninterrupted go buy 2 more 3-way switches. Attatch the power to the hole or screw that is marked common or appears different than the other 2. You will certainly understand the diagram in or on the carton much better by now. Plug those 2 transit wires in either of the other holes or screws attatch the ground and screw the switch back into the box. Repeat this with the other switch this time the wire going to the light is the one to focus on and plug or screw into to common terminal on the switch. The other 2 into the other terminals, attatch the ground wire, screw the switch into the box and now turn on the power and the thing will work. Assuming you only have 1 power in wire out of those 6 (which you should have already determined), not attatching those 6 wires to the proper terminals will not be a disaster as long as the ground wire is attatched where it belongs. So if you have gotten this far, turn on that breaker. You should at least have a good idea of wherein your problem lies if you still have one.Good Building, Jim Malone
*Jim...Boy....WTF??!!...You are kidding right???...Just practicing your typing or what?More wasted space on the server,ajThe guy has lights, is alive and his wife hasn't bonked him yet for getting killed following some post on the internet.....It's Christmas....give that family a break.
I've fixed this problem a 1000 times your traveler wires are crossed. Turn off power to that circuit first. Remove one of the switches. You will see that it has 2 screws that are the same color. Take the 2 wires that are on those screws and reverse their position on that switch. I mean take wire 1 that is on screw 1 and put it on screw 2 and take wire 2 and put it on screw 1.
Greeting ED- Welcome to Breaktime.
That post you replied to is from year 2000.
Chances are he won't get the response but thanks for your attentiveness.
Got to love those archives aye?
Cheers
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
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b Is my brand new three way swtich defective, or was it wired wrong?
Up front disclaimer: I'm a homeowner, not a trained electrician. I wouldn't feel justified in turning to you folks for help except that----I paid my electrical subcontractor to wire a new home which was finished 4 months ago. Since then my attempts to get the electrical sub contractor to return and see what's wrong with my three way switch circuits has been futile. I have written a letter and made three phone calls stating that "I'll be happy to pay cash up front if you'll come!" The subcontractor is very busy with new work. My new house is 27 miles out in the country. They say they will get to it eventually, but it has been four months. They are nice people, I believe.
So what's my story?
There's the usual entry into the guest bathroom from the interior of the house. As you enter the bathroom there's a wall switch to turn on or off the lights in the bathroom. At the other side of the same bathroom, there's a door which opens to the outside of the house. There's a second wall mounted switch on the inside wall as one goes outdoor. We asked that the two switches be wired so that either one would turn the bathroom lights ON or OFF. The electrical subcontractor said, "Fine, you just need a three way switch." He installed such switches (presumably).
When the house wiring was completely finished the electrical subcontractor submitted his bill to us and we paid it promptly.
Since the guest bathroom hasn't been used, thus far, we didn't discover that the switches weren't working as we had asked/planned for a week or two after the wiring was completed.
Either of the named "three way" swtiches will turn the bathroom lights ON and OFF. But you can't use one of the switches to turn the lights on and then use the other switch to turn the lights off.
That is to say, you can't turn the lights on as you enter the bathroom from the interior of the house and then walk over to the door going to the outside and turn the bathroom lights off at that second switch. In the same way, you can't come indoors through the outside door leading into that bathroom and turn the lights on as you enter. You can turn the lights on as you enter O.K. but if you walk across the bathroom and leave the bathroom to go on into the interior of the house, the wall switch where you go on into the interior of the house won't turn the lights off.
Summing up: either switch will turn the lights ON or OFF if you use the same switch for both functions BUT only one of them can be used to perform that function. You can't use one switch to turn the lights on and the other switch to turn them off.
The electrical subcontractor, when apprised by telephone of the situation, said that the switches were defective. I visited a Lowe's store and spoke with the man most knowledgeable about such switches. The salesman said it was extremely rare for a brand new switch, right out of the factory box, to be defective and voiced the suspicion that the switches had been wired incorrectly.
So I have two questions:
How uncommon is it for a brand new three-way switch to be defective right out of the box?
Where can I learn how to properly wire a three way switch?
How many leads should I expect to find in a properly wired three way switch?
Respectfully,
William
Florida